MML Post Electrification Timetable

[richieb1971]

Moderator Note: Posts #1 - #3 originally in this thread

MML Electrification updates | RailUK Forums (railforums.co.uk)

Forgive the silly question. When is the new EMR stock arriving and when is the new timetable going live?

Thanks.

 

[MatthewRead]

Forgive the silly question. When is the new EMR stock arriving and when is the new timetable going live?

Thanks.

Class 360's take over the Corby line form May 2021 and new Class 810's are due to come into service in early 2023!

 

[Bald Rick]

Forgive the silly question. When is the new EMR stock arriving and when is the new timetable going live?

Thanks.

Well the new timetable goes live 9 weeks on Sunday. Electric to Corby and recast of the MML (and many regional services).

The new bimodes start arriving next year, and any subsequent change to the timetable from are probably the year after that.

 

[Ianno87]

Class 360's take over the Corby line form May 2021 and new Class 810's are due to come into service in early 2023!

Can we expect any 360 passenger operation before the timetable change (phasing onto some diagrams), or is it going to be a "big bang"?

 

[swt_passenger]

A significant proportion of the generic May 2021 timetable thread already covers the MML changes, it’s about the only area with big changes:

May 2021 Timetable Change

Hi, Just wondering when the new timetable will be available online? Don't think they’ll be many if any changes at all. Thanks

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Bald Rick]

Can we expect any 360 passenger operation before the timetable change (phasing onto some diagrams), or is it going to be a "big bang"?

Possibly a little bit.

 

[Aictos]

Possibly a little bit.

Like when the Canal Tunnels were open, didn't Thameslink operate a few services to start off with rather then a big bang approach?

 

[Bald Rick]

Like when the Canal Tunnels were open, didn't Thameslink operate a few services to start off with rather then a big bang approach?

Yes - Saturdays only IIRC.

 

[Aictos]

Yes - Saturdays only IIRC.

Thanks I wasn't too sure on the exact details but I seem to recall it was a limited service to start with.

 

[Ianno87]

Thanks I wasn't too sure on the exact details but I seem to recall it was a limited service to start with.

Was (off memory) initially two Peterbrough-Horshams and one Cambridge-Brighton each way on weekdays from Feb 2018. In March 2018 a second Cambridge-Brighton was added.

 

[MML]

There used to be direct EMR Express trains from Luton to Sheffield.
With the new timetable it would appear passengers now have to travel on Class 360 EMUs to Kettering, join the Nottingham train changing at Leicester and then joining a third train to Sheffield.
Is this really viewed as a service improvement for any stations from Bedford, Luton Town & Airport?
It would be more sensible stopping the hourly semi fast Sheffield at Kettering.
Regular travellers must now be considering a car journey to avoid 3 different trains just to travel along the MML.

 

[43074]

There used to be direct EMR Express trains from Luton to Sheffield.
With the new timetable it would appear passengers now have to travel on Class 360 EMUs to Kettering, join the Nottingham train changing at Leicester and then joining a third train to Sheffield.
Is this really viewed as a service improvement for any stations from Bedford, Luton Town & Airport?
It would be more sensible stopping the hourly semi fast Sheffield at Kettering.
Regular travellers must now be considering a car journey to avoid 3 different trains just to travel along the MML.

How many "regular travellers" are there between Luton/Bedford and Derby/Sheffield though? The higher demand north (which is tiny compared to the London flows anyway) from those stations is to Leicester and Nottingham which can be reached with one change at Kettering every half hour, which seems a fair compromise if a half hourly Corby service is in the DfT's specification and is therefore what EMR are required to deliver.

 

[swt_passenger]

There used to be direct EMR Express trains from Luton to Sheffield.
With the new timetable it would appear passengers now have to travel on Class 360 EMUs to Kettering, join the Nottingham train changing at Leicester and then joining a third train to Sheffield.
Is this really viewed as a service improvement for any stations from Bedford, Luton Town & Airport?
It would be more sensible stopping the hourly semi fast Sheffield at Kettering.
Regular travellers must now be considering a car journey to avoid 3 different trains just to travel along the MML.

EMR reckoned 97% of Bedford passengers head south to London, or to a station served by the EMUs. It was all covered in the 2021 timetable consultation, which was mostly discussed within the main May 2021 timetable thread.

But here it is if you wish to see their explanation:

Why are you removing Intercity services from Bedford to the North?
Over 97% of passengers in Bedford either travel south from Bedford to London, or travel to stations directly served by EMR Electrics. We recognise that some passengers will be put off from travelling through beyond Kettering, but we are also confident new passengers will benefit from effectively doubling the journey opportunity to go towards Leicester and Nottingham. Passengers travelling from anywhere south of Kettering to north of Kettering will know that they will be able to make a northbound connection.

https://www.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk/sites/default/files/assets/download_ct/20210205/n_i9XmBXOR0fcjO1G0Dq3EgB1L4jbxKJtxUTIOwnjEc/emr_may_2021_results_document_rgb_new_final.pdf

They also managed a late change to allow a couple of direct trains to/from Leicester and Nottingham supposedly at commuter times...

 

[Table 52]

There used to be direct EMR Express trains from Luton to Sheffield.

When exactly was this and are you talking about a frequent service, or just a couple of trains a day? In recent times, nearly all Luton calling trains were going to Corby & Luton Airport Parkway calls to Nottingham.

 

[MML]

You now need to catch 3 trains to travel between Luton Airport, Luton or Bedford and Derby, Chesterfield or Sheffield.
But even travelling from Wellingborough, Kettering or Market Harbrough now requires 2.
The end to end journey time of the hourly fast service from Sheffield and Nottingham to London would still be maintained if the hourly semi fast Sheffield and Nottingham services called at Kettering.
Now everywhere south of Leicester has a worse service unless you are either travelling to London or Corby. And who exactly wants to travel to Corby.

 

[Table 52]

And who exactly wants to travel to Corby.

People living in Corby returning from London.

 

[MML]

When exactly was this and are you talking about a frequent service, or just a couple of trains a day? In recent times, nearly all Luton calling trains were going to Corby & Luton Airport Parkway calls to Nottingham.

Morning peak services from Luton Town used to travel to Sheffield prior to COVID. Any the number of passengers joining at Luton was surprisingly high. Though some might have been heading for intermediate stations. Off peak switched to Corby.

 

[Kite159]

You now need to catch 3 trains to travel between Luton Airport, Luton or Bedford and Derby, Chesterfield or Sheffield.
But even travelling from Wellingborough, Kettering or Market Harbrough now requires 2.
The end to end journey time of the hourly fast service from Sheffield and Nottingham to London would still be maintained if the hourly semi fast Sheffield and Nottingham services called at Kettering.
Now everywhere south of Leicester has a worse service unless you are either travelling to London or Corby. And who exactly wants to travel to Corby.

Yet Kettering to Market Harborough is now 2 trains an hour rather than just the one...

 

[MML]

People living in Corby returning from London.

Exactly. One single market.

 

[Table 52]

Morning peak services from Luton Town used to travel to Sheffield prior to COVID. Any the number of passengers joining at Luton was surprisingly high. Though some might have been heading for intermediate stations. Off peak switched to Corby.

So, a couple of peak only trains that were direct are lost in return for a huge host of benefits from the new timetable.

Exactly. One single market.

Probably much bigger than the market from Sheffield to Luton.

 

[MML]

So, a couple of peak only trains that were direct are lost in return for a huge host of benefits from the new timetable.

Probably much bigger than the market from Sheffield to Luton.

Huge host of benefits if you are travelling to Corby or London.

But it's not a single market is it.
Sheffield, Chesterfield and Derby to anywhere south of Leicester has been sacrificed. Yet if the Kettering stop was shared between the semi fasts to Sheffield and Nottingham, the overall destinations and benefits for all intermediate stations would have been available.
What's the betting in the next consultation 1% of passengers travel from Luton to Corby, and because the journey has become so tedious 0% will be travelling to Leicester and Sheffield.
Statistics showing low passenger flows are frequently due to the poor or non existent service provided.

 

[Ianno87]

Huge host of benefits if you are travelling to Corby or London.

But it's not a single market is it.
Sheffield, Chesterfield and Derby to anywhere south of Leicester has been sacrificed.

London (which is south of Leicester) hasn't - that's improved.

Yet if the Kettering stop was shared between the semi fasts to Sheffield and Nottingham, the overall destinations and benefits for all intermediate stations would have been available.
What's the betting in the next consultation 1% of passengers travel from Luton to Corby, and because the journey has become so tedious 0% will be travelling to Leicester and Sheffield.

But that's irrelevant if drowned out by generating growth through serving London and other flows better.

Statistics showing low passenger flows are frequently due to the poor or non existent service provided.

And sometimes simply because the demand isn't there.

 

[MML]

London (which is south of Leicester) hasn't - that's improved.





But that's irrelevant if drowned out by generating growth through serving London and other flows better.


And sometimes simply because the demand isn't there.

I'm sure those travelling from stations south of Leicester don't consider their needs irrelevant.

And sometimes because the timetable has become more focused on London and commuters to the city rather than the Home Counties, Midlands or Yorkshire. Journeys to London have largely improved. If you're not travelling to London or Corby the service is generally worse.

 

[Ianno87]

I'm sure those travelling from stations south of Leicester don't consider their needs irrelevant.

And sometimes because the timetable has become more focused on London and commuters to the city rather than the Home Counties, Midlands or Yorkshire. Journeys to London have largely improved. If you're not travelling to London or Corby the service is generally worse.

This needs to be a forum Readme: The objective of a timetable change is not to please everybody - it is to, in overall terms, benefit more people (in terms of actual forecast demand on each flow) than lose out.

 

[Bald Rick]

Is this really viewed as a service improvement for any stations from Bedford, Luton Town & Airport?

Very much so, as almost everyone from those stations gets a better service to the destinations they go to.

Regular travellers must now be considering a car journey to avoid 3 different trains just to travel along the MML.

I used to be a regular on the one train each morning that picked up at Luton that went to Sheffield (2004-6). Similarly on the one afternoon trip back. Rarely were there more than three of us, and the other two were off at Leicester.

 

[DDB]

Huge host of benefits if you are travelling to Corby or London.

But it's not a single market is it.
Sheffield, Chesterfield and Derby to anywhere south of Leicester has been sacrificed. Yet if the Kettering stop was shared between the semi fasts to Sheffield and Nottingham, the overall destinations and benefits for all intermediate stations would have been available.
What's the betting in the next consultation 1% of passengers travel from Luton to Corby, and because the journey has become so tedious 0% will be travelling to Leicester and Sheffield.
Statistics showing low passenger flows are frequently due to the poor or non existent service provided.

It was explained in the consultation and in the response to the consultation that it wasn't possible to share the Kettering stop between the two semi fasts.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Yet Kettering to Market Harborough is now 2 trains an hour rather than just the one...

Which is a reversion to what National Express did when the Turbostars were introduced in Midland Mainline days, with all three of Wellingborough, Kettering and Market Harborough being served by the half-hourly semi-fast services.

The difference being that said semi-fasts extended to Leicester (with connections to IC services) and beyond.

 

[Merle Haggard]

This needs to be a forum Readme: The objective of a timetable change is not to please everybody - it is to, in overall terms, benefit more people (in terms of actual forecast demand on each flow) than lose out.

What's not clear to me is whether the objective is to benefit the existing passengers or to entice new ones, but this suggests the former.
So often (generally, not just railways) the surveys are of existing customers, rather than possible new ones. I've quite often been asked to fill in a survey while travelling but never received one at home. I don't know how 'forecast demand' can include potential new business if only existing passengers are surveyed.

 

[bramling]

This needs to be a forum Readme: The objective of a timetable change is not to please everybody - it is to, in overall terms, benefit more people (in terms of actual forecast demand on each flow) than lose out.

I do wonder if there’s an element of wanting to remove stops from the longer distance service in order to prevent them being used for London journeys at the places now served by the Corby services. There seems to have been some level of length reduction for the Sheffield and Nottingham services (not sure if some of this is down to Covid), so some could get quite quickly overwhelmed if used for the commuter journeys.

That said, it isn’t an unreasonable objective to want to push people onto the Corby services, given the quite copious capacity provided on them. The last thing anyone wants is the EMUs running around empty whilst the longer distance services are packed.

 

[Bald Rick]

What's not clear to me is whether the objective is to benefit the existing passengers or to entice new ones, but this suggests the former.
So often (generally, not just railways) the surveys are of existing customers, rather than possible new ones. I've quite often been asked to fill in a survey while travelling but never received one at home. I don't know how 'forecast demand' can include potential new business if only existing passengers are surveyed.

It’s both. The consultations are always open to everyone, existing passengers or not.

There seems to have been some level of length reduction for the Sheffield and Nottingham services (not sure if some of this is down to Covid)

It is down to COVID, and taking the opportunity to off lease most of the HSTs early.