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More bad news for Scottish residents

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MattA7

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It appears Sturgeon’s government is giving business and Scottish residents a ultimatum. Vaccination passports or social distancing/gathering restrictions reintroduced. I wish I could say I’m surprised but with SNP unpredictable behavior I’m sadly not.

Scotland is facing a choice between extending the vaccine passport scheme and lockdown-style restrictions, the Scottish government has said.
A final decision on whether to extend certification will be made on Tuesday.
But a new evidence paper claims that to "suppress the virus further" there is a choice between limiting social contacts or requiring passports at more hospitality venues.
Any extension to the scheme would start on 6 December.
Covid case numbers are currently much lower than during the most recent peak in August, but they have been slowly climbing again in recent weeks.
The Scottish government is worried about the impact this could have on the NHS over winter.
 
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greyman42

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So if she goes for social distancing/gathering restrictions, how is she going to find the money to compensate the hospitality sector, or will she just let businesses go to the wall?
 

Yew

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So if she goes for social distancing/gathering restrictions, how is she going to find the money to compensate the hospitality sector, or will she just let businesses go to the wall?
Is she a Puritan? Perhaps she'd be glad to see the pubs go out of business?
 

3rd rail land

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So if she goes for social distancing/gathering restrictions, how is she going to find the money to compensate the hospitality sector, or will she just let businesses go to the wall?
I wouldn't put it past her to expect Westminster to fund the economic fallout of the restrictions. Has she even noticed that furlough has ended?

If she opts for vaccine passports it will undoubtedly affect tourism. I wouldn't go to Scotland if I had to show my Covid pass everywhere I go, I'd take my money and go on holiday elsewhere.
 

duncanp

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It will be interesting to see the comparative infection rates in England and Scotland if Nicola Sturgeon goes ahead with introducing more restrictions and Boris Johnson continues with his current policy of "Plan A".

If infection rates in England stay broadly flat, or if they fall in the run up to Christmas as some scientists are predicting, then Nicola Sturgeon is going to have some explaining to do to the Scottish people if infection rates follow a similar pattern in Scotland.

In other words, the Scottish people are going to want to see some benefit from the extra restrictions that they are going to have to put up with, in the form of lower infection rates (or at least lower infection rates than England) otherwise Mrs Sturgeon will feel the consequences at the Scottish local elections in May.
 

kez19

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It appears Sturgeon’s government is giving business and Scottish residents a ultimatum. Vaccination passports or social distancing/gathering restrictions reintroduced. I wish I could say I’m surprised but with SNP unpredictable behavior I’m sadly not.


Yet look under the BBC headlines 3 days earlier…

People in Scotland can expect a "normal Christmas" with some Covid measures, the deputy first minister has said.
John Swinney told the BBC that the extension of the vaccine passport scheme and other mitigations would help people live normally
Oh the irony! (not you)
 
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duncanp

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Yet look under the BBC headlines 3 days earlier…


Oh the irony! (not you)

I can't help thinking that the "...warning of passport extension OR more restrictions...." is just softening up the people of Scotland for the extension of the vaccine passport scheme.

In other words, when Nicola Sturgeon extends vaccine passports to pubs and restaurants (in the run up to Christmas, note) the people of Scotland are meant to think:-

"...thank God she didn't introduce more restrictions on gatherings or business closures . How grateful we should be to our glorious leader. Let's all bow down and worship her..."
 

kez19

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I can't help thinking that the "...warning of passport extension OR more restrictions...." is just softening up the people of Scotland for the extension of the vaccine passport scheme.

In other words, when Nicola Sturgeon extends vaccine passports to pubs and restaurants (in the run up to Christmas, note) the people of Scotland are meant to think:-

"...thank God she didn't introduce more restrictions on gatherings or business closures . How grateful we should be to our glorious leader. Let's all bow down and worship her..."

I just think I live in opposite land, but still though if she was meant to bring in restrictions/passports I wonder when the ball will drop with the public?
 

greyman42

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In other words, the Scottish people are going to want to see some benefit from the extra restrictions that they are going to have to put up with, in the form of lower infection rates (or at least lower infection rates than England) otherwise Mrs Sturgeon will feel the consequences at the Scottish local elections in May.
Sturgeon will say the benefit is independence and that seems to be enough for a sizeable chunk of the population.
It seems to me that she is just trying to be part of Europe regarding restrictions as opposed to following the UK government.
 

haggishunter

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So if she goes for social distancing/gathering restrictions, how is she going to find the money to compensate the hospitality sector, or will she just let businesses go to the wall?

People can read the actual evidence paper produced for the Scottish Ministers at https://www.gov.scot/binaries/conte...ccine-certification-evidence-paper-update.pdf .

Adding a negative test option to a certification scheme would be less objectionable and create less problems for business, should the scheme be expanded than a pure vaccine passport scheme. But there is a case that a return to updated local Covid protection levels would be less disruptive and damaging to business. The systems, staff knowledge, working methods are already in place for dealing with that, whereas vaccine passports open up new additional hardware, infrastructure and training costs - potentially extra staff costs too and the hospitality sector is experiencing severe shortages of staff in much of Scotland as it is, plus it introduces a flashpoint between customers and staff that isn't there with social distancing and table service in hospitality.

There are also cases where having vaccine passport checks will introduce a requirement for staff - customer interactions with every customer where that interaction isn't currently necessary, opening up transmission pathways instead of closing them down.

As an example, 3 of the Scottish Ski Areas set up for wholly online ticketing for level 4 operations last winter, this means people can book and collect tickets without having to interact with a staff member and avoids ticket queues removing a potential opportunity for transmission. If a covid certification scheme was extended to the snowsports areas, then staff would need to manually process and verify every individual skier and snowboarder prior to activating tickets - not just each ticket purchaser, this would create substantial queues and shift the ticketing process from one of minimal staff-customer interaction into one of greatly increased staff customer interactions.

The evidence of what is happening elsewhere across Europe is not encouraging for continuing as we are into winter, but Scotland has remained fairly steady for around 8 weeks now and the past few days there is tentative signs of a slight drop in daily cases again.
 

kez19

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Mr Swinney needs to realise that vaccine passports doesn't equal normal

I think in general they have no clue what they are doing, I agree with you though.

I wonder how many MSPs use the passports? Come on BBC Scotland/STV have a look?
 

Kite159

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There are also cases where having vaccine passport checks will introduce a requirement for staff - customer interactions with every customer where that interaction isn't currently necessary, opening up transmission pathways instead of closing them down.

One issue with having a member of staff out on the front door checking customers papers is that it ties up that member of staff from actually helping out inside the venue.

Especially as some places have staff shortages due to various issues.

Also if she brings in needing papers to visit pubs, how many people will simply not bother going out, instead having booze in a group in a house?
 

ld0595

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Glad to see the introduction of vaccine passports, especially seeing as they've done so well elsewhere..........
 

yorkie

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Glad to see the introduction of vaccine passports, especially seeing as they've done so well elsewhere..........
Sturgeon is keen on measures that are proven not to work elsewhere (e.g. Germany, Austria etc), so I see no reason why she won't believe in vaccine passports; also anything that is different to England would have to be considered ;)
I can't help thinking that the "...warning of passport extension OR more restrictions...." is just softening up the people of Scotland for the extension of the vaccine passport scheme.
Absolutely.
 

Butts

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Ironically we are falling behind the rest of the UK as she had to have a separate system for VP's from the one in England & Wales which was offered.

Had my Booster Jab Yesterday from an RAF Doctor (butcher compared to the Nurses) at Falkirk Community Hospital - all service personnel doing the business.

The delay means our third jab will appear on our record later than in England.

She's not bothered about that as it may only have implications for travelling abroad, not domestic use.

How much longer is she going to get away with this ?

Time for some SNP supporters to start complaining ?
 

duncanp

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Ironically we are falling behind the rest of the UK as she had to have a separate system for VP's from the one in England & Wales which was offered.

Had my Booster Jab Yesterday from an RAF Doctor (butcher compared to the Nurses) at Falkirk Community Hospital - all service personnel doing the business.

The delay means our third jab will appear on our record later than in England.

She's not bothered about that as it may only have implications for travelling abroad, not domestic use.

How much longer is she going to get away with this ?

Time for some SNP supporters to start complaining ?

I had my third jab yesterday (in Birmingham) and it has already appeared on the NHS App this morning.

I was able to download a PDF file which shows the third jab - quite useful as I am going to France for a holiday on Wednesday.

Sajid Javid has been on the TV this morning saying that vaccine passports will not be needed in England in the immediate future, so it will be interesting to see whether vaccine passports in Scotland (and the probable extension of them) will have any effect in making Scottish infection rates, hospitalisations and deaths lower than in England.
 

Peterthegreat

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I had my third jab yesterday (in Birmingham) and it has already appeared on the NHS App this morning.

I was able to download a PDF file which shows the third jab - quite useful as I am going to France for a holiday on Wednesday.

Sajid Javid has been on the TV this morning saying that vaccine passports will not be needed in England in the immediate future, so it will be interesting to see whether vaccine passports in Scotland (and the probable extension of them) will have any effect in making Scottish infection rates, hospitalisations and deaths lower than in England.
Your third jab won't be "valid" in France until a week after your vaccination. Fortunately the 2nd jab will continue to be valid.
 

clagmonster

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If she opts for vaccine passports it will undoubtedly affect tourism. I wouldn't go to Scotland if I had to show my Covid pass everywhere I go, I'd take my money and go on holiday elsewhere.
Likewise, I am not going to Wales next week for the same reason. I have had both jabs, about to have the third but I am not sharing my medical status for such purposes. The bodies that stand to lose have been informed of the money they are losing from me.
 

duncanp

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Your third jab won't be "valid" in France until a week after your vaccination. Fortunately the 2nd jab will continue to be valid.

My understanding is that I will still be allowed to enter France.

See https://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/en/c...e-for-foreign-nationals-in-france/#sommaire_1

Fully vaccinated means:-
  • Seven days after the second shot for two-shot vaccines (Pfizer, Moderna, AstraZeneca (Vaxevria and Covishield))
The reference on there which says

Seven days after a booster ARNm dose (Moderna or Pfizer) after two shots of a vaccine on the WHO’s health emergencies list (Sinovac/Coronavac or Sinopharm/BBIB-PVeroCells)

means that you must wait until seven days after a booster jab only if your first two jabs were on the WHO health emegencies list, which was not the case for me.

But I still have a copy of the PDF which only shows two doses, and I shall show this at border control.
 

Peterthegreat

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My understanding is that I will still be allowed to enter France.

See https://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/en/c...e-for-foreign-nationals-in-france/#sommaire_1

Fully vaccinated means:-
  • Seven days after the second shot for two-shot vaccines (Pfizer, Moderna, AstraZeneca (Vaxevria and Covishield))
The reference on there which says



means that you must wait until seven days after a booster jab only if your first two jabs were on the WHO health emegencies list, which was not the case for me.

But I still have a copy of the PDF which only shows two doses, and I shall show this at border control.
Sorry I probably didn't make it totally clear. You mentioned you had had your booster and were going to France. I had wrongly assumed from that you thought you needed the booster to enter France. I was merely pointing out 7 days have to pass for the booster to become valid.
 

duncanp

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Sorry I probably didn't make it totally clear. You mentioned you had had your booster and were going to France. I had wrongly assumed from that you thought you needed the booster to enter France. I was merely pointing out 7 days have to pass for the booster to become valid.

Yes, it would be absurd if someone who had two doses is allowed to enter France, but someone who has had a booster suddenly becomes "unclean" for seven days and is not allowed to enter the country, or to go to bars and restaurants etc.

Back on topic, this has implications for any country which mandates vaccine passports, such as Scotland, and then subsequently changes the definition of "fully vaccinated", to require a third dose for certain groups of people.

It would be anomalous to say the least if someone could enter a Scottish pub eight months after a second dose, but not two days after a third dose.

Can't wait for the day when all this nonsense is behind us.
 

kez19

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Ironically we are falling behind the rest of the UK as she had to have a separate system for VP's from the one in England & Wales which was offered.

Had my Booster Jab Yesterday from an RAF Doctor (butcher compared to the Nurses) at Falkirk Community Hospital - all service personnel doing the business.

The delay means our third jab will appear on our record later than in England.

She's not bothered about that as it may only have implications for travelling abroad, not domestic use.

How much longer is she going to get away with this ?

Time for some SNP supporters to start complaining ?

The thing for me I asked the Scottish Government in an email in terms of use in England (or elsewhere in UK) but was literally fobbed off but I see since couple weeks ago since I got my 3rd one nothing on the app either.

The thing is even if SNP supporters pulled up these jumped up councillors they’ll not care.

As for getting away with it - maybe the likes of BBC Scotland and STV pulled their weight and held her to account than just roll over that be a start but then again that media in general for you.
 

duncanp

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Just because the thread say bad news doesn't mean that it is.
Public opinion (in England as well) is very much in favour of stricter measures - the naysayers are simply more vocal and, dare I say, bigoted.
The other side of the coin is those who avoid a busy pub or restaurant just now will be happier and more relaxed about going in.
I have the passport app, it is easy to use.
No jags? Don't go out and risk infecting others.
Simple.

I would dispute that public opinion in England is "...very much in favour of stricter measures...".

If it were, then the number of people wearing masks on public transport would be a lot higher than it is at the moment.

And as for "....No jags? Don't go out and risk infecting others....", you are aware that vaccinated people are just as likely to transmit the virus as non vaccinated people, as no vaccine can stop people from becoming infected?

What vaccines do is protect the vaccinated person against the risk of serious illness, hospitalisation and death, and this is borne out by the figures.
 

Cdd89

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If it were, then the number of people wearing masks on public transport would be a lot higher than it is at the moment.
I expect this refers to the public opinion of those who never travel on public transport. It’s easy to forget how many people (probably the vast majority) almost never do so in a given year.

Personally I think that discounts their opinion as valid in relation to policy on-board public transport. As you say, we have a very effective real-life poll for actual public transport users.
 

kez19

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Just because the thread say bad news doesn't mean that it is.
Public opinion (in England as well) is very much in favour of stricter measures - the naysayers are simply more vocal and, dare I say, bigoted.
The other side of the coin is those who avoid a busy pub or restaurant just now will be happier and more relaxed about going in.
I have the passport app, it is easy to use.
No jags? Don't go out and risk infecting others.
Simple.


You been following the YouGov poll? Oh dear!

No Jags? Get on in life - been vaccinated? Who cares? Get on in life! Naysayers are bigoted? What planet you on? I didn't realise 2021 we have became so offended by anything and everything that going - no wonder its now a planet I want to get off, just to add just because people are becoming vocal maybe thats the point the tide is turning or do you just follow whats thrown at you without thinking?

You have the app? So do I! Yet I can't find anything properly to tell me if I can use it domestically in the UK other than Scotland - thats the Scottish Government for you though!

You do realise regardless of been vaccinated or not you will pass it regardless? I think its time to stop listening to the media and think for yourself don't you think? Just to point out something I had a friend vaccinated and oh look got COVID - I have had COVID last year unvaccinated I survived and have been triple jabbed! (wow - triple jabbed!), I lost a family member to COVID but at least I don't bang the drums on restrictions/masks and for people to be vacccinated - get your head out of the sand for once and think.


I'll ask this - do tell me how many of our fellow MSPs have been vaccinated and carrying these passports? (would you say the same thing above to the politicians too or is it just to your fellow citizen?) I'll hazard a guess and be glad to be wrong - possibly few and far between but lets see.
 
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bramling

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Just because the thread say bad news doesn't mean that it is.
Public opinion (in England as well) is very much in favour of stricter measures - the naysayers are simply more vocal and, dare I say, bigoted.
The other side of the coin is those who avoid a busy pub or restaurant just now will be happier and more relaxed about going in.
I have the passport app, it is easy to use.
No jags? Don't go out and risk infecting others.
Simple.

You mean public opinion being that people will happily embrace having some paid time off work, but I bet doesn’t extend quite so far as cancelling a second Christmas?

Reality is a lot of people favour restrictions for *others*. If I had a pound for every time last year I heard something along the lines of “Went down to town for a coffee, shocked to find it was busy” moans.
 

kez19

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You mean public opinion being that people will happily embrace having some paid time off work, but I bet doesn’t extend quite so far as cancelling a second Christmas?

Reality is a lot of people favour restrictions for *others*. If I had a pound for every time last year I heard something along the lines of “Went down to town for a coffee, shocked to find it was busy” moans.


Its a bit ironic I think as a carer I have worked throughout this but its good to see those advocating lockdown/masks etc seem to remain unaffected, I wonder when that bubble will burst (if no furlough)?
 

haggishunter

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As you say, we have a very effective real-life poll for actual public transport users.
As others said, a couple of train journeys last two days in Scotland - almost full compliance with the mask mandate.

The vocal potential tourist not visiting from England because of x,y,z covid mitigation in Scotland is interesting… keep reading this online, but even tourist accommodation that would often be shut in November is doing a reasonable trade.

Speaking to the Kingshouse in Glencoe on Saturday and they were fully booked Thur, Fri and Sat - catering team is short and they were run off their feet. People very definitely are visiting the Highlands from across the UK and it may even be the case the mitigations are encouraging people who’s otherwise not travel at present to have a wee break. If you’ve been medically shielding over the first 18 months of the pandemic don’t under estimate the value of such short breaks and having the confidence to undertake them to those who’ve arguably had the toughest of times recently.
 

Freightmaster

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Just because the thread say bad news doesn't mean that it is.
Public opinion (in England as well) is very much in favour of stricter measures...
This has been discussed numerous times on this forum - the vast majority of people who
say that they want "stricter measures" only want/expect them to apply to everyone else!


No jags? Don't go out and risk infecting others.
Simple.
I've got a Tesla - can I go out infecting others? ;)





MARK
 
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