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New 4-tier system for England

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Crossover

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As a breakdown, all the Ayes were from the Conservative MP's

The No's were a mixture, notably including the Independent Corbyn, as well as a handful of Labour.

Most of Labour abstained, including the Leader of the Opposition
 
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NorthOxonian

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Worth noting that Steve Baker does not show in the list of Noes, but this was because he was a teller for the No side.

Also, the entire DUP voted No - though I'm surprised they got a vote (and chose to use it), since these regulations apply to England rather than Northern Ireland.
 

island

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The DUP saying no? How astonishing :E

(it is a convention, but not a binding rule, that MPs from the other nations do not vote on matters affecting only England)
 

Mojo

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From watching it earlier their argument for voting on this matter was because they said that Northern Ireland usually copy England but in many cases make the rules even stricter.
 

Bantamzen

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It still requires an offence to either be, or about to be, committed. Adding those two points to the above list makes the offences in the legislation (contravening a tier regulation, refusing to follow the directions given by an "relevant person", etc) being introduced actually enforceable, as they wouldn't really fall under any of the other allowable reasons for making an arrest. It doesn't allow for someone being arrested to maintain public health, it's allowing for someone to be arrested for committing an offence in order to maintain public health
But the laws around covid are largely based around whether or not people should be where they are, and whether or not they should / can be wearing masks. But we are not required to carry any evidence that we should be where we are, or to prove any exemption from mask wearing. But with these laws in place, you could be arrested for simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and potentially without reasonable cause.

Simply having the virus isn't an offence as of yet, so you can't be arrested for it yet. However, given the other thread about the police, and their general inability to follow the law as it's set out, it's certainly cause for concern
And herein lies the point I'm making, we have already seen examples of officers / forces stretching their interpretations of the law, so giving even more power risks more.
 

ChrisC

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The whole drive towards scapegoating hospitality is wrong on all levels.

On an economic level, it will cause extreme damage. On a covid level it will encourage people to congregate in unsupervised private spaces.

It undermines the credibility of the whole exercise as far as I'm concerned.
Just been watching the local news on tv. Lots of pictures of large numbers of shoppers out in the centre of Lincoln including long queue outside Debenhams with people hoping for bargains. Shopkeepers naturally hoping for people to return to the high streets in these 3 weeks leading up to Christmas and are expecting a busy weekend. After the dreadful year they have had I wish them well. Also on the news were reports from busy fully booked gyms as they also reopen today.

Yet, just around the corner from my house, the village pub remains closed, with being in Tier 3, little hope of reopening this side of Christmas. I find it difficult to come to terms with why the high streets and shopping centres can be open and crowded whilst pubs, restaurants and hotels remain closed.
 

yorksrob

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Just been watching the local news on tv. Lots of pictures of large numbers of shoppers out in the centre of Lincoln including long queue outside Debenhams with people hoping for bargains. Shopkeepers naturally hoping for people to return to the high streets in these 3 weeks leading up to Christmas and are expecting a busy weekend. After the dreadful year they have had I wish them well. Also on the news were reports from busy fully booked gyms as they also reopen today.

Yet, just around the corner from my house, the village pub remains closed, with being in Tier 3, little hope of reopening this side of Christmas. I find it difficult to come to terms with why the high streets and shopping centres can be open and crowded whilst pubs, restaurants and hotels remain closed.

I couldn't agree more.
 

Tomp94

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Gosh these tiers create so much division among people!

I am continuously being called selfish by my mother who I live with, for continuing to mix with only my girlfriend who doesn't live with me. She mixes with only me and her housemate. I have an 86 year old nan who my mum looks after, who lives a few doors down from me.
My mum expects me to spend the next potentially six months not seeing my girlfriend.
My mum believes everything she is told by the government, like "they wouldn't be doing this (the restrictions on lives) unless they had to. And "why can't you just follow the rules" ...and I've learned to question things.
I haven't actually broken any rules. (yet)
We live in Worthing which currently has the lowest covid infection rate in the entire country of England.


Tiers are going to end in tears!
 

Kite159

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I couldn't agree more.

Agreed

Having a meal (or drinks) sitting around a socially distanced table in a pub is less of a risk than the shopping rumble, where it can be a free for all with some selfish people ignoring the concept of social distancing to lean over to grab something from the shelf in front rather than waiting a few seconds
 

Ianno87

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Agreed

Having a meal (or drinks) sitting around a socially distanced table in a pub is less of a risk than the shopping rumble, where it can be a free for all with some selfish people ignoring the concept of social distancing to lean over to grab something from the shelf in front rather than waiting a few seconds

In the queue in Greggs earlier and *still* some people can't grasp the concept of keeping a small amount of distance from the person in front....
 

bramling

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Just been watching the local news on tv. Lots of pictures of large numbers of shoppers out in the centre of Lincoln including long queue outside Debenhams with people hoping for bargains. Shopkeepers naturally hoping for people to return to the high streets in these 3 weeks leading up to Christmas and are expecting a busy weekend. After the dreadful year they have had I wish them well. Also on the news were reports from busy fully booked gyms as they also reopen today.

Yet, just around the corner from my house, the village pub remains closed, with being in Tier 3, little hope of reopening this side of Christmas. I find it difficult to come to terms with why the high streets and shopping centres can be open and crowded whilst pubs, restaurants and hotels remain closed.

Crowding everywhere out for the next couple of weeks - a busy time even in normal times - was a really great idea. Hancock, BJ and Whitby should get a medal for that one.
 

Richard Scott

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Crowding everywhere out for the next couple of weeks - a busy time even in normal times - was a really great idea. Hancock, BJ and Whitby should get a medal for that one.
But if infections do rise they'll still blame all of us for it as we didn't follow instructions, nothing to doing with the fact it's a respiratory virus doing what they do at this time of year.
 

Skimpot flyer

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In the queue in Greggs earlier and *still* some people can't grasp the concept of keeping a small amount of distance from the person in front....
I’ve said it many times on here. Masks being made compulsory in shops had the immediate effect of people beginning to stand closer together again, on the very first weekend. I saw it with my own eyes. Those who believe masks reduce viral load had better hope their blind faith is correct, because if you wanted a policy that ensured the virus spread more, this would be the one !
 

High Dyke

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Just been watching the local news on tv. Lots of pictures of large numbers of shoppers out in the centre of Lincoln including long queue outside Debenhams with people hoping for bargains. Shopkeepers naturally hoping for people to return to the high streets in these 3 weeks leading up to Christmas and are expecting a busy weekend. After the dreadful year they have had I wish them well. Also on the news were reports from busy fully booked gyms as they also reopen today.

Yet, just around the corner from my house, the village pub remains closed, with being in Tier 3, little hope of reopening this side of Christmas. I find it difficult to come to terms with why the high streets and shopping centres can be open and crowded whilst pubs, restaurants and hotels remain closed.

Agreed
Having a meal (or drinks) sitting around a socially distanced table in a pub is less of a risk than the shopping rumble, where it can be a free for all with some selfish people ignoring the concept of social distancing to lean over to grab something from the shelf in front rather than waiting a few seconds
Hear hear. I did note the interview Iain Duncan Smith gave on BBC Breakfast this morning (Wednesday). In it he was sticking up for the hospitality industry and the challenges it has faced. I'm just a little disappointed that no-one has challenged those at the top to provide evidence that people visiting a pub, where strict control measures have been taken, is far more risky than being in a shop where the public wander about willy-nilly or stand dithering and getting in the way.
 

Mugby

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Well everyone (who watched) the latest No.10 briefing saw Mr. Van Tam say that he wants to see the hand sanitising and all the other Covid rigmaroles to become part of the British way of life and carry on forever.

Boris was clearly taken aback by this, obviously it wasn't the sort of comment he wants to impart when there's a glimmer of some normality returning in the new year. It seems that all the senior scientists and SAGE Committee members just can't stop themselves chucking spanners in the works at every given opportunity!
 

duncanp

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If Jonathan Van Tam thinks that we are all going to wear masks on buses and trains, and in shops and pubs, on a long term basis, he's got another think coming.

I can give him a few suggestions as to where to stick the unused masks.
 

yorksrob

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Hear hear. I did note the interview Iain Duncan Smith gave on BBC Breakfast this morning (Wednesday). In it he was sticking up for the hospitality industry and the challenges it has faced. I'm just a little disappointed that no-one has challenged those at the top to provide evidence that people visiting a pub, where strict control measures have been taken, is far more risky than being in a shop where the public wander about willy-nilly or stand dithering and getting in the way.

Yes, they've been allowed to get away with this time and time again, which is disgraceful.

Well everyone (who watched) the latest No.10 briefing saw Mr. Van Tam say that he wants to see the hand sanitising and all the other Covid rigmaroles to become part of the British way of life and carry on forever.

Boris was clearly taken aback by this, obviously it wasn't the sort of comment he wants to impart when there's a glimmer of some normality returning in the new year. It seems that all the senior scientists and SAGE Committee members just can't stop themselves chucking spanners in the works at every given opportunity!

What else would one expect from them.
 

Richard Scott

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If Jonathan Van Tam thinks that we are all going to wear masks on buses and trains, and in shops and pubs, on a long term basis, he's got another think coming.

I can give him a few suggestions as to where to stick the unused masks.
What about the increased waste from all these masks and environmental impact. Also can't believe the amount of hand sanitizer we're getting through isn't without environmental impact. On the flip side maybe people will be ill more often due to reduced exposure to pathogens with all this hand sanitizer and what does long term use do to the skin?
 

duncanp

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What about the increased waste from all these masks and environmental impact. Also can't believe the amount of hand sanitizer we're getting through isn't without environmental impact. On the flip side maybe people will be ill more often due to reduced exposure to pathogens with all this hand sanitizer and what does long term use do to the skin?

Who cares about all those negative consequences?

At least if we wear masks 24 hours a day from now until kingdom come, close and demolish every single hospitality venue in the country, stay at home for 167 out of 168 hours a week, and sanitise out hands every 30 seconds we will be "..safe.." from "..this lethal virus...".
 

DustyBin

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Hear hear. I did note the interview Iain Duncan Smith gave on BBC Breakfast this morning (Wednesday). In it he was sticking up for the hospitality industry and the challenges it has faced. I'm just a little disappointed that no-one has challenged those at the top to provide evidence that people visiting a pub, where strict control measures have been taken, is far more risky than being in a shop where the public wander about willy-nilly or stand dithering and getting in the way.

The industry is challenging the government to provide evidence, as their own figures suggest a transmission rate of 3-5% in (or linked to) hospitality settings. As you’ll probably be aware this has now gone legal as the government have failed to provide any evidence and aren’t engaging in a particularly constructive way either. The ‘but if it saves even one life’ brigade seem to have the loudest voice, sadly....
 

yorksrob

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The industry is challenging the government to provide evidence, as their own figures suggest a transmission rate of 3-5% in (or linked to) hospitality settings. As you’ll probably be aware this has now gone legal as the government have failed to provide any evidence and aren’t engaging in a particularly constructive way either. The ‘but if it saves even one life’ brigade seem to have the loudest voice, sadly....

I look forward to seeing the lies of the Government and the rest of the lockdown brigade on hospitality, fully exposed through the courts.
 

Richard Scott

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I look forward to seeing the lies of the Government and the rest of the lockdown brigade on hospitality, fully exposed through the courts.
Exactly, I'd love to see Drakeford defend his actions with scientific reasoning in court.
 

greyman42

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I look forward to seeing the lies of the Government and the rest of the lockdown brigade on hospitality, fully exposed through the courts.
If this happens, and it is anywhere near election time, it would probably be curtains for the present government.
 

Halish Railway

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I was with my parents and they were saying that ANPR checks are being carried out on journeys from tier 3 to tier 2. I’m not sure whether this is true or just a case of someone talking nonsense.

In my case that’s getting from Leeds to York tomorrow and I was wondering whether I’d be asked what my journey was for essential purposes when my ticket would be checked if I was going by train.
 

yorksrob

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If this happens, and it is anywhere near election time, it would probably be curtains for the present government.

It would be well deserved, but for the fact that the only realistic oposition to this disastrous policy has come from the backbenches of "the Government" (and the DUP to be fair to them).

I was with my parents and they were saying that ANPR checks are being carried out on journeys from tier 3 to tier 2. I’m not sure whether this is true or just a case of someone talking nonsense.

In my case that’s getting from Leeds to York tomorrow and I was wondering whether I’d be asked what my journey was for essential purposes when my ticket would be checked if I was going by train.

Did they mention where, out of interest ?
 

greyman42

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It would be well deserved, but for the fact that the only realistic oposition to this disastrous policy has come from the backbenches of "the Government" (and the DUP to be fair to them).
That is very true.
 

Kite159

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If this happens, and it is anywhere near election time, it would probably be curtains for the present government.
It will be interesting to see what happens next year in the Welsh/Scottish elections. Will the current government get punished by the voters?
 

Crossover

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I was with my parents and they were saying that ANPR checks are being carried out on journeys from tier 3 to tier 2. I’m not sure whether this is true or just a case of someone talking nonsense.

In my case that’s getting from Leeds to York tomorrow and I was wondering whether I’d be asked what my journey was for essential purposes when my ticket would be checked if I was going by train.

There is some discussion of it from yesterday here:

It sounds like you had a similar conversation with your parents to what I did!
 
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