New 4-tier system for England

[DustyBin]

I look forward to seeing the lies of the Government and the rest of the lockdown brigade on hospitality, fully exposed through the courts.

Unfortunately I doubt it will get to court as the government can play the emergency legislation card (as they have done previously). In addition, and this is only my personal opinion, any successful action would potentially open the floodgates so it simply won’t be allowed to succeed. There’s a degree of stonewalling at present, they know exactly what they’re doing....

 

[adc82140]

I'm currently in Plymouth for work. The hotel I'm staying in is dead. I've been coming to the same hotel for a couple of years, including during the spring lockdown. I've never seen it like this.

And I think this is a border phenomenon. Everyone has gone into Tier 1 Cornwall to stay. Normally the hotel car park would be full of highway maintenance vans. None at all today. I bet they've asked to be put up the other side of the Tamar so they can have a drink together in the bar.

It's looking likely that Dorset will go to Tier 1 on 16th. I live in Hampshire, about half a mile from the border, and we'll likely stay Tier 2. I fear for all the pubs in our town if this happens. There is certainly a damaging border effect.

 

[yorksrob]

Unfortunately I doubt it will get to court as the government can play the emergency legislation card (as they have done previously). In addition, and this is only my personal opinion, any successful action would potentially open the floodgates so it simply won’t be allowed to succeed. There’s a degree of stonewalling at present, they know exactly what they’re doing....

I fear you're probably correct, which is a shame.

 

[greyman42]

Unfortunately I doubt it will get to court as the government can play the emergency legislation card (as they have done previously). In addition, and this is only my personal opinion, any successful action would potentially open the floodgates so it simply won’t be allowed to succeed. There’s a degree of stonewalling at present, they know exactly what they’re doing....

You may be right but hopefully the public and the media will be wise to this. We certainly will be on this forum.

 

[DB]

Well, first weekend since the end of lockdown and people are clearly not hiding at home. Town centre pretty busy this morning, and I got the train down the valley this afternoon and it was reasonably loaded - appeared to be largely people from the towns the other side of the county boundary who had come to escape Tier 3 and were on their way home!

The trains are getting closer to normal all the time. It's still predominantly younger people using them, but apart from the masks most people are behaving pretty much normally. If only we could get rid of the barrage of drivel from the PA and PIS systems (mask crap in addition to the usual pointless annoucements).

 

[Freightmaster]

The trains are getting closer to normal all the time. It's still predominantly younger people using them, but apart from the masks most people are behaving pretty much normally. If only we could get rid of the barrage of drivel from the PA and PIS systems Government (mask crap in addition to the usual pointless announcements).

Fixed that for you!







MARK

 

[317 forever]

There is a risk of the virus spreading more as it gets colder, and places rising a tier maybe around the end of January. With hospitality closed in tier 3 areas, I am apprehensive about booking a night away even in tier 2 areas for now in case the rug is pulled from under my feet beforehand.

This already did happen to me with my night away in outer south London last weekend. I therefore went down for the day for an inner south London daytrip instead despite the lockdown.

 

[philosopher]

There is a risk of the virus spreading more as it gets colder, and places rising a tier maybe around the end of January. With hospitality closed in tier 3 areas, I am apprehensive about booking a night away even in tier 2 areas for now in case the rug is pulled from under my feet beforehand.

This already did happen to me with my night away in outer south London last weekend. I therefore went down for the day for an inner south London daytrip instead despite the lockdown.

I am pretty resigned to London being put into Tier 3 on the 16th. The lockdown in London seems to have been a waste of time, cases have barely gone down and London now has the highest infection rate of the UK regions.

 

[317 forever]

I am pretty resigned to London being put into Tier 3 on the 16th. The lockdown in London seems to have been a waste of time, cases have barely gone down and London now has the highest infection rate of the UK regions.

Just as I toured the West End & inner south London last Saturday, I toured the City & inner east London on June 27th. Whereas by June we were out of lockdown in terms of non-essential retail having been reopened and the Stay at home message withdrawn, I saw more people out and about last Saturday than on my June visit. Even Euston station was busier last Saturday than on my June visit.

 

[Tracked]

Was in town yesterday, we're in Tier 3 but the queue outside Primark was nearly as long as it was over summer. I don't like the rules on pubs (and other leisure facilities) but, unlike the tier 1-3 "all shops can open", I can see a logical progression through the tiers in them. Certainly round here a lot of the bigger stores do the mask-wearing and limiting the number of people that can go in, but once people are inside it's a free for all, so expecting cases to start rising again by the end of next week.

Currently we're on our 5th set of rules since late September (Rule of 6, Tier 2, Tier 3, Lockdown 2, New Tier 3), if it turns out we've been really good we might be on the 7th set of rules over Christmas.

 

[Cdd89]

I am pretty resigned to London being put into Tier 3 on the 16th.

One benefit of London entering tier 3 may be that the government finds it politically impossible to keep it as severe as it currently is.

The best I’d hope for is that it might be amended to allow restaurants to remain open until 6pm with no alcohol, as in Wales.

 

[duncanp]

I am pretty resigned to London being put into Tier 3 on the 16th. The lockdown in London seems to have been a waste of time, cases have barely gone down and London now has the highest infection rate of the UK regions.

It is not the case that London has the highest infection rate of the UK regions.

Using data for the 7 days to 30th November, the infection rate in London is 160.1 per 100,000, as opposed to 187.1 for the West Midlands and 175.5 for the North East.

If you look at the rates in the individual boroughs, the picture is varied, with Camden having an infection rate under 100, and Havering having a rate over 300.

So I don't think it is inevitable that London will go into Tier 3 on 16th December. I think it is more likely it will stay in Tier 2, possibly for political reasons.

I don't think the government wants to move any areas up a tier unless it is absolutely necessary, and the effect of the new tier system will only become apparent about two weeks after the end of the national lockdown.

 

[Yew]

The best I’d hope for is that it might be amended to allow restaurants to remain open until 6pm with no alcohol, as in Wales.

That's literally the most idiotic, puritanical policy that there is though.

 

[bramling]

One benefit of London entering tier 3 may be that the government finds it politically impossible to keep it as severe as it currently is.

I wouldn’t bank on that; Boris is just as likely to attempt to spin any blame onto Sadiq Khan.

Now if some proper Home Counties areas end up in tier 3, and I don’t mean the likes of Luton, then that might be a different matter.

 

[Cdd89]

That's literally the most idiotic, puritanical policy that there is though.

I thought the same when I first heard about it, but having given it more consideration it does at least mean that pubs don’t waste money on alcohol that will spoil and therefore aids planning. And it means that places are open throughout the daytime in order to support / complement retail.

Don’t get me wrong, I hate restrictions on pubs and restaurants and think they’re totally unfair. The restaurants I’ve been to have had practically no chance of catching Covid owing to them all being practically empty; I’ve eaten out nearly every single day since July (excluding November), in an attempt to support restaurants, and can only assume those who scapegoat hospitality have no experience. But I’d accept any improvement from “completely closed”.

The same people who criticise pubs and restaurants nevertheless have “a few friends” over for dinner against the rules which, despite thinking they’re responsible, is more risky Covid-wise than a highly regulated restaurant environment. People don’t understand the exponential nature of contacts that involves. I don’t criticise that either, but merely highlight it since one of the most powerful spread vectors is one rule-makers are powerless to do anything about.

 

[yorksrob]

The BBC news is reporting that the Cristmas Market in Tier 3 Nottingham has closed after a day due to crowding:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-55206779

Nottingham's controversial Christmas market has "temporarily" closed - just one day after it opened.
Mellors Group, who organised the event, said it made the decision following "unprecedented high footfall".

This seems to aptly illustrate the cretinous stupidity of the tier system where people desperate to do something end up crowding the places that remain open.

We've seen it in our town centres where people who would otherwise be doing a range of activities, all seem to be crowded into the shops.

If any increases in infection rates occur as a result of this sort of crowding, the designers and protagonists of the tier restrictions should be held directly responsible for them.

 

[DB]

The BBC news is reporting that the Cristmas Market in Tier 3 Nottingham has closed after a day due to crowding:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-55206779




This seems to aptly illustrate the cretinous stupidity of the tier system where people desperate to do something end up crowding the places that remain open.

We've seen it in our town centres where people who would otherwise be doing a range of activities, all seem to be crowded into the shops.

If any increases in infection rates occur as a result of this sort of crowding, the designers and protagonists of the tier restrictions should be held directly responsible for them.

Quite. How could anyone not have expected a Christmas market in a large city with hospitality venues closed to be busy?

 

[duncanp]

The BBC news is reporting that the Cristmas Market in Tier 3 Nottingham has closed after a day due to crowding:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-55206779




This seems to aptly illustrate the cretinous stupidity of the tier system where people desperate to do something end up crowding the places that remain open.

We've seen it in our town centres where people who would otherwise be doing a range of activities, all seem to be crowded into the shops.

If any increases in infection rates occur as a result of this sort of crowding, the designers and protagonists of the tier restrictions should be held directly responsible for them.

Another aspect of the Christmas market in Nottingham was that people were reported to be defecating in doorways because there were no toilets open, due to, in part, hospitality venues being closed.

Now you could take the view that it is disgusting that people behave in this way, but if you put on an event that is designed to attract a lot of people, you should provide the relevant facilities. The one in Birmingham usually has some Portakabins provided.

If hospitality venues had been open, then people would have used the toilets in there, and the market itself would have been less crowded.

 

[Yew]

If hospitality venues had been open, then people would have used the toilets in there, and the market itself would have been less crowded.

Don't let common sense get in the way of punishing people for living in a place where the cases are high.

Before we went into T3, I went to many pubs and they were dead, hardly a hotbed of virus transmission, you'd almost think it was a war on fun, rather than on a virus.

 

[duncanp]

Don't let common sense get in the way of punishing people for living in a place where the cases are high.

Before we went into T3, I went to many pubs and they were dead, hardly a hotbed of virus transmission, you'd almost think it was a war on fun, rather than on a virus.

Tell me about it.

Nottingham has the Forest recreation ground, where the Goose Fair is usually held. It is a large open space and is on the tram network. It would have been better to have the Christmas Market there, so that it could be spread out more widely.

There has been a lot of comment this morning about the crowds in the West End of London yesterday on the first Saturday after the end of lockdown, and how terrible it is that there was no social distancing and not everyone was wearing a mask.

Well what the hell did you expect to happen when you close the shops for four weeks at the busiest time of the year, leaving people with a little over three weeks to get Christmas shopping that in normal circumstances would have been spread over seven weeks.

 

[DB]

Tell me about it.

Nottingham has the Forest recreation ground, where the Goose Fair is usually held. It is a large open space and is on the tram network. It would have been better to have the Christmas Market there, so that it could be spread out more widely.

There has been a lot of comment this morning about the crowds in the West End of London yesterday on the first Saturday after the end of lockdown, and how terrible it is that there was no social distancing and not everyone was wearing a mask.

Well what the hell did you expect to happen when you close the shops for four weeks at the busiest time of the year, leaving people with a little over three weeks to get Christmas shopping that in normal circumstances would have been spread over seven weeks.

BBC was reporting this morning that footfall yesterday was down 25% on the first Saturday in December last year.

Which does rather go to show that people have had enough of restrictions, if 75% of the 'normal' number who would go shopping are doing so despite all the restrictions and predictions of doom!

 

[david1212]

Tell me about it.

Nottingham has the Forest recreation ground, where the Goose Fair is usually held. It is a large open space and is on the tram network. It would have been better to have the Christmas Market there, so that it could be spread out more widely.

There has been a lot of comment this morning about the crowds in the West End of London yesterday on the first Saturday after the end of lockdown, and how terrible it is that there was no social distancing and not everyone was wearing a mask.

Well what the hell did you expect to happen when you close the shops for four weeks at the busiest time of the year, leaving people with a little over three weeks to get Christmas shopping that in normal circumstances would have been spread over seven weeks.

BBC was reporting this morning that footfall yesterday was down 25% on the first Saturday in December last year.

Which does rather go to show that people have had enough of restrictions, if 75% of the 'normal' number who would go shopping are doing so despite all the restrictions and predictions of doom!

Back at the end of October I said that closing shops for 4 weeks was a mistake both from Covid-19 transmission and economic viewpoints. Providing distancing is maintained transmission in shops should be very low. Had this happened I wonder how many fewer would have been out Saturday and yesterday ?

 

[Tramfan]

The Newcastle Chronicle is reporting that footfall on the main shopping street Northumberland Street on Saturday was up 36% compared to the same Saturday last year!

A Christmas shopping surge on Saturday left Newcastle city centre busier than in pre-Covid times, it has been revealed.

Saturday’s total footfall on Northumberland Street, the city’s most popular shopping area, was 36% higher than it was on the first Saturday in December 2019, according to council bosses.

https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/newcastle-city-centre-busier-saturday-19415670

 

[WelshBluebird]

Now you could take the view that it is disgusting that people behave in this way, but if you put on an event that is designed to attract a lot of people, you should provide the relevant facilities. The one in Birmingham usually has some Portakabins provided.

Was it clear to those attending that there were no public toilets being provided?
Shouldn't adults be responsible enough to work out their own toilet needs without needing to crap in someones doorway?

 

[greyman42]

The Newcastle Chronicle is reporting that footfall on the main shopping street Northumberland Street on Saturday was up 36% compared to the same Saturday last year!



https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/newcastle-city-centre-busier-saturday-19415670

Having no football may of boosted the numbers.

 

[yorksrob]

Was it clear to those attending that there were no public toilets being provided?
Shouldn't adults be responsible enough to work out their own toilet needs without needing to crap in someones doorway?

If you have any sort of public event, you would expect there to be reasonable toilet provision. That's not carte blanch to go to the loo everywhere, but we've had cases reported on here where people have been caught short due to lack of working toilets on trains.

 

[duncanp]

If you have any sort of public event, you would expect there to be reasonable toilet provision. That's not carte blanch to go to the loo everywhere, but we've had cases reported on here where people have been caught short due to lack of working toilets on trains.

You would have thought that the local authority would insist on adequate toilet provision as a condition for allowing the market to go ahead.

But there again, not living in Nottingham I don't know how competent the city council is.

 

[yorksrob]

You would have thought that the local authority would insist on adequate toilet provision as a condition for allowing the market to go ahead.

But there again, not living in Nottingham I don't know how competent the city council is.

Well, indeed, although they might have held the event many times before and not had the issue due to other premises being open and thus been caught out. Similarly, they might not have had so many numbers previously due to the alternatives not being open.

The xmas market that usually takes place in Leeds as an example, takes place in an events space which has toilet provision, but some cities have theirs along a main shopping street where you wouldn't necessarily expect specific toilets.

 

[WelshBluebird]

If you have any sort of public event, you would expect there to be reasonable toilet provision. That's not carte blanch to go to the loo everywhere, but we've had cases reported on here where people have been caught short due to lack of working toilets on trains.

Lack of working toilets is a bit different to lack of toilets full stop though isn't it?
I.e. - in one case you know toilets are provided but they happened to be not working vs the other case where you don't know if there will be toilet provision and you didn't bother to check.

Well, indeed, although they might have held the event many times before and not had the issue due to other premises being open and thus been caught out. Similarly, they might not have had so many numbers previously due to the alternatives not being open.

I suspect this is probably the case.
From memory, the markets held in Bristol and Cardiff don't usually provide public toilets either despite both having bars as part of those markets.

 

[yorksrob]

Lack of working toilets is a bit different to lack of toilets full stop though isn't it?
I.e. - in one case you know toilets are provided but they happened to be not working vs the other case where you don't know if there will be toilet provision and you didn't bother to check.



I suspect this is probably the case.
From memory, the markets held in Bristol and Cardiff don't usually provide public toilets either despite both having bars as part of those markets.

I wouldn't necessarily check that a public event would have toilet provision. I'd expect there to be some somewhere.

Anyway, I entirely blame the ridiculous tier three restrictions primarily for the particular situation in Nottingham.