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New EU regulations threaten last connection between Lisbon and Madrid

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A "co-driver" from the destination country gets a full day salary just for that task.
The driver has to be shipped from their depot by road to the station on the opposite side of the border, take the train on both ways, then return back to post (again by road).
By the time of arrival at their depot, they either have no trains to drive, or are already way into their shift to take care of one, so they are dismissed.

This doesn't happen with the Celta Porto-Vigo, since both CP and Renfe drivers are already qualified to run on both networks, as the journey goes well beyond the station right next to both sides of the border.
Medway and Takargo drivers also have such qualifications to operate cross-border.

But it's true that "to the border" services between Spain and Portugal are basically going extinct. Renfe used to have Regionales that last called at Valença, in Portugal, and the Sud/Lusitania Express required a Spanish diesel locomotive to travel to the Portuguese side of the border and swap with, or from, a Portuguese electric locomotive, because the Spanish side is neither electrified, nor do they use the same electrification as Portugal (3kV DC vs 25kV AC).
My thought was that the driver who would be taking over the train anyway, could just cross the border and act as pilot just from that point. It says the stretch of track is only a shortish distance. Usually, there is a way, if goodwill exists?
 
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RT4038

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My thought was that the driver who would be taking over the train anyway, could just cross the border and act as pilot just from that point. It says the stretch of track is only a shortish distance. Usually, there is a way, if goodwill exists?
But (in the Badajoz case) it is not a through train which has a Spanish driver taking over. It is a branch line shuttle that runs a short distance over the border from Portugal, waits about an hour and then returns again. However, the line into Badajoz from Portugal is not self contained (threading through some sidings) and therefore apparently the Portuguese driver needs certificating on both the Spanish signalling system and the Spanish language. As has been pointed out already in post#5, provision of a Spanish pilot driver would be a whole shift to be paid for by CP, and that expense renders this branch line service (which must be borderline anyway) uneconomic.
 

Giugiaro

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If this article is correct it'll put paid to my proposed Lisbon to Madrid trip in January. I guess it will also affect the Porto to Vigo service currently run by RENFE?

From December 21, 2021 onwards, it'll be faster to travel from Porto to Madrid through Vigo, at just over 9h travel with a 1h45min break at Vigo.
A change in stations between Guixar and Urzáiz will be required.

From Lisbon it's a completely different story. No train departing from Lisbon can take you in the same day to Madrid, through Porto.
If it wasn't for the Badajoz link, it'll always take two days to travel by rail between both capitals.

Realistically the new highspeed link between Évora and Elvas, which will precede a daytime connection between Lisbon and Madrid, will only be realistically open for service in 2025.
 
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peteb

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CP still selling a through ticket Lisboa Oriente to Badajoz for 20th January 2022 on their website, d Lisboa 0753 a Badajoz 1414, so either they have matters in hand (!), plan to bus passengers over the border or (perhaps more likely) will simply cancel the service and offer refunds. Any idea how much a taxi would be from Elvas to Badajoz?
 
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But (in the Badajoz case) it is not a through train which has a Spanish driver taking over. It is a branch line shuttle that runs a short distance over the border from Portugal, waits about an hour and then returns again. However, the line into Badajoz from Portugal is not self contained (threading through some sidings) and therefore apparently the Portuguese driver needs certificating on both the Spanish signalling system and the Spanish language. As has been pointed out already in post#5, provision of a Spanish pilot driver would be a whole shift to be paid for by CP, and that expense renders this branch line service (which must be borderline anyway) uneconomic.
Yep, sounds like it is best to just shut the line then, job done. :'(
 

urbophile

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There was a language issue with communications between Dutch and French speaking signallers which contributed to the Pécrot train crash in Belgium in 2001:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pécrot_rail_crash

This shows that language problems don't necessarily only affect international operations.
You'd expect public servants in Belgium to be fluent in both official languages. As for Welsh and English in Wales.
 

AlbertBeale

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You'd expect public servants in Belgium to be fluent in both official languages. As for Welsh and English in Wales.

There are lots of people in Belgium who are nowhere near bilingual in French and Dutch. (I've encountered people speaking French and English and negligible Dutch, ones who can speak Dutch and German and English but virtually no French, and so on.) If it were common that those in public-facing jobs needed to be fluent in both national languages [actually, there are 3 official languages; German is one too, but the situation with German is more complicated...], you'd expect a knock-on effect of that to be that cross-functionality between mother-tongue French speakers and mother-tongue Dutch speakers was much greater than seems to be the case.
 

Fragezeichnen

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You'd expect public servants in Belgium to be fluent in both official languages. As for Welsh and English in Wales.
Are Belgian train drivers "public servants" (i.e. employees of the state/civil servants)?

German rail staff stopped being classified as such years ago, I don't think french ones are either. In Germany it is a big deal - public servants cannot be fired but they also cannot strike
 

urbophile

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Are Belgian train drivers "public servants" (i.e. employees of the state/civil servants)?

German rail staff stopped being classified as such years ago, I don't think french ones are either. In Germany it is a big deal - public servants cannot be fired but they also cannot strike
I wasn't using the term 'public servants' as implying any legal status, simply that a public transport employee (whether of a nationalised system or whatever) is employed to serve the public.

But whereas Wales is an officially bilingual country in that both languages are used throughout (whether in majority English speaking areas or majority Welsh ones), Belgium is much more rigidly divided into language zones. Nevertheless you'd think that for trains crossing language boundaries staff would be able to communicate with all passengers.
 

MarcVD

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You'd expect public servants in Belgium to be fluent in both official languages. As for Welsh and English in Wales.

The requirement exists for people in contact with the public. This is not the case for signallers. Trains that cross between two language zones must be staffed (driver and guard) by bilingual people. Ground based staff need only to know the language of the zone where their base is located.

And yes, most (not all) SNCB and Infrabel staff have official Civil servant status.
 

JKF

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CP still selling a through ticket Lisboa Oriente to Badajoz for 20th January 2022 on their website, d Lisboa 0753 a Badajoz 1414, so either they have matters in hand (!), plan to bus passengers over the border or (perhaps more likely) will simply cancel the service and offer refunds. Any idea how much a taxi would be from Elvas to Badajoz?
6hrs 21 for a 220km journey that can be driven in two and a half hours. With a bit of maths that works out around 22mph. I can understand why this is quite a marginal service. Does the driver stop every now and then to shoot rabbits, like they (anecdotally) did on the WC&P?
 

peteb

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6hrs 21 for a 220km journey that can be driven in two and a half hours. With a bit of maths that works out around 22mph. I can understand why this is quite a marginal service. Does the driver stop every now and then to shoot rabbits, like they (anecdotally) did on the WC&P?
If it's still running in January I'll let you know!
 

miklcct

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This is a part of an article about cross connections between Portugal and Spain, exposing how new European safety regulations have severely increased cross-border costs, putting at risk the last connection between Lisbon and Madrid that can be realistically done within a single day:



Translated with DeepL and reviewed/modified by Tiago Miranda
Full article source: Público
Isn't it possible to set up a post at the border, such that the Portuguese driver can get off the train there and replaced with a Spanish driver coming from the opposite direction, and the Portuguese driver taking another train back? (Obviously this isn't possible on a single-track railway unless a passing loop is exactly at the border)
 

NSEFAN

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6hrs 21 for a 220km journey that can be driven in two and a half hours. With a bit of maths that works out around 22mph. I can understand why this is quite a marginal service. Does the driver stop every now and then to shoot rabbits, like they (anecdotally) did on the WC&P?
There was no rabbit shooting observed when I travelled on this line recently. However, having to change from a decent train (with 1st class and refreshments) to a single carriage DMU at Entroncamento hardly gave the feel of a high profile intercity service...

The Renfe service to Puertollano from Badajoz was slightly better, a 3 car DMU instead. Although in our case the vending machines machines were out of service. Then there was additional faffing at Puertollano with the security theatre for the high speed service to Madrid. All very interesting from an enthusiast perspective, but hardly welcoming for normal passengers.
 

RT4038

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Isn't it possible to set up a post at the border, such that the Portuguese driver can get off the train there and replaced with a Spanish driver coming from the opposite direction, and the Portuguese driver taking another train back? (Obviously this isn't possible on a single-track railway unless a passing loop is exactly at the border)
There is only one service per day, which uses one train Entronamento-Badajoz-Entroncamento. To operate in the way you suggest, two trains would be required, with one standing over in Badajoz for about 21 hours. Additionally, the Spanish drivers' work would be about one hour per day; the cost of which (and the extra train in service) would render the service uneconomic.
 

miklcct

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There is only one service per day, which uses one train Entronamento-Badajoz-Entroncamento. To operate in the way you suggest, two trains would be required, with one standing over in Badajoz for about 21 hours. Additionally, the Spanish drivers' work would be about one hour per day; the cost of which (and the extra train in service) would render the service uneconomic.
Is it possible to run two services per day, one in the morning peak and one in the evening peak for cross-border commuters, timed to meet at the border?

Alternatively, as it is a branch service, is it possible to transfer the operation and change the signalling system to that of Portuguese network, such that it will not be under control of any Spanish authorities?
 

RT4038

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Is it possible to run two services per day, one in the morning peak and one in the evening peak for cross-border commuters, timed to meet at the border?

Alternatively, as it is a branch service, is it possible to transfer the operation and change the signalling system to that of Portuguese network, such that it will not be under control of any Spanish authorities?
Great idea! So, instead of the cost of one additional train and one additional Spanish driver, we'll have the cost of the additional train, double the mileage movement cost, one additional Portuguese driver and two additional Spanish drivers (it being highly unlikely that one driver would be able to work a train the both the morning and afternoon peak). Additionally the timetable would not cater for any Lisbon-Madrid passengers, as the times would simply not facilitate any connection. I don't know much about the Badajoz/Elvas area, but looking at googlemaps it is quite rural and not ever so much cross border commuter potential.

Post #32 discusses the potential of separating the Spanish and Portuguese tracks at Badajoz. The answer is only with quite some capital expense, which would not be paid for out of the revenue of the service from Portugal (the use of which can be gauged by the use of a single car, and was suspended for quite some years, i.e. not much)
 

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There is only one service per day, which uses one train Entronamento-Badajoz-Entroncamento. To operate in the way you suggest, two trains would be required, with one standing over in Badajoz for about 21 hours. Additionally, the Spanish drivers' work would be about one hour per day; the cost of which (and the extra train in service) would render the service uneconomic.
There are Medway services that change driver and locomotive at both sides of the border, which will have to deal with the same regulations as the passenger service one.

There hasn't been any news about those connections, since the likes of Takargo and Medway already have services that run entirely in both Portuguese and Spanish territory, but there are still several that carry over to a partner operator on the other side of the border. How many of these will evolve into true cross-country services, and which will fade into inexistence?
 

37201xoIM

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I see this train still appears in the CP journey planner. Does this suggest that a solution might have been found (if so, any idea as to what it is?), or is it just that it's being allowed to continue while the issue rumbles on?
 

Giugiaro

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Hello @37201xoIM

The tariffs for 2022 have been publish and they still include pricing for Badajoz. There's also no warnings about this connection.

I still don't know how the service is being kept running. I'm waiting for Mr. Carlos Cipriano to clarify on his news article after New Year.

I can try and get an answer by just travelling down to Entroncamento and ask the driver on duty myself, but that's a three hour journey each way for me, eheheh.
 

the sniper

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@Giugiaro I saw something on Twitter today about Lisbon to Madrid being doable in 5hrs by the end of 2023? Is this looking likely? Should be a game changer, if so?
 

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@Giugiaro I saw something on Twitter today about Lisbon to Madrid being doable in 5hrs by the end of 2023? Is this looking likely? Should be a game changer, if so?
I seriously have my doubts that the High-Speed Line will be ready by that time, on both the Spanish and Portuguese sides.

But yes, 5 hours should be doable.
 

the sniper

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I seriously have my doubts that the High-Speed Line will be ready by that time, on both the Spanish and Portuguese sides.

But yes, 5 hours should be doable.

Thanks, the timeframe seemed optimistic to me from what little I knew. Still, a 5 hour trip seems quite reasonable. Certainly sounds enticing to me, at least!
 

AlbertBeale

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Thanks, the timeframe seemed optimistic to me from what little I knew. Still, a 5 hour trip seems quite reasonable. Certainly sounds enticing to me, at least!

But this Madrid-Lisbon link still provides no convenient 24-hour connection between London and Lisbon (nor probably from any other non-Iberian capital), which the not-so-very-high-speed night train from Hendaye to Lisbon made possible via the Paris-Bordeaux TGV route. For people in the rest of Europe heading for Portugal, reinstating that sleeper is more important than speeding up the day trains between Madrid and Lisbon (not that I'm opposed to that connection being much better!).
 

30907

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But this Madrid-Lisbon link still provides no convenient 24-hour connection between London and Lisbon (nor probably from any other non-Iberian capital), which the not-so-very-high-speed night train from Hendaye to Lisbon made possible via the Paris-Bordeaux TGV route. For people in the rest of Europe heading for Portugal, reinstating that sleeper is more important than speeding up the day trains between Madrid and Lisbon (not that I'm opposed to that connection being much better!).
True, and I think CP share your view.
However, using the Paris-Port Bou sleeper it should be possible to reach Lisbon the next day, if not so conveniently.
 

37201xoIM

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True, and I think CP share your view.
However, using the Paris-Port Bou sleeper it should be possible to reach Lisbon the next day, if not so conveniently.
But this Madrid-Lisbon link still provides no convenient 24-hour connection between London and Lisbon (nor probably from any other non-Iberian capital), which the not-so-very-high-speed night train from Hendaye to Lisbon made possible via the Paris-Bordeaux TGV route. For people in the rest of Europe heading for Portugal, reinstating that sleeper is more important than speeding up the day trains between Madrid and Lisbon (not that I'm opposed to that connection being much better!).
Agreed, both - well said.

And thanks, @Giugiaro , for the update - much appreciated. I'm sure that 3 hours each way on an Allan isn't too much to suffer in the interests of scientific research.... ;)
 

Marton

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On language and border crossings how do the Canadians manage?

Quebec province is francophone and it borders New Brunswick (bilingual) and Ontario (Anglophone).

New Brunswick then borders anglophone Nova Scotia.
 
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