New national restrictions in Scotland

[Peter0124]

Oh for crying out loud, this is just going on too long!

 

[Richard Scott]

Looking past the pandemic, it is probably a good idea to have the latter part of secondary education delivered using a blended approach as the education system should reflect the world of work. The priority needs to be getting early-years education back to full-time face to face.

Most children will be fine. Most is not all.

If you worked with secondary school children you wouldn't make that statement. Blended learning does not work, they need to discuss things with their peers, surely that's what adults do as well when working and they have a problem? That doesn't work with remote learning unless the group is very small, around 5 or less. I'm speaking from experience here.
Most children will be fine with most being so close to 100% it may as well be 100%. Currently more are suffering from wellbeing issues than anything the virus will throw at them. Ok, one or two may get seriously ill but we can't keep this charade up just in case.

 

[najaB]

Most children will not get hit by a car on their journey to school, but some will. There are risks with everything we do. There is a line and it is close to being crossed.

I fully understand that. But when we are making decisions about acceptable risk we need to be fully cognisant as to what the risk actually is. Some deaths are inevitable, possibly even acceptable, but pretending that those loses don't exist doesn't inform the debate. Statements like

School children will not become ill and even if they spread it amongst adults, they will soon be protected.

aren't helpful, in the same way that we wouldn't say "School children will not be hit by cars on their journey to school" when considering road safety measures.

It would be more accurate (and helpful) to say: "School children have a low risk of becoming ill.", and even better if "low" can be quantified in terms of actual statistics.

Blended learning does not work, they need to discuss things with their peers, surely that's what adults do as well when working and they have a problem? That doesn't work with remote learning unless the group is very small, around 5 or less. I'm speaking from experience here.

I actually am a trainer by profession (yes, I know there's a difference between pedagogical and adult learning!) and pretty much all the training that I do is delivered remotely. It definitely doesn't work for early years learning but, if well structured with remote learning in mind from the start, it definitely can and does work for adult learning, and for the latter stages of schooling.

 

[david1212]

It's almost as if I dreamt the fact there was a vaccine which will protect the vulnerable. School children will not become ill and even if they spread it amongst adults, they will soon be protected. The evidence suggests the vaccines protect against severe illness, even if not 100% effective in preventing infection. Covid has a 99% survival rate... Politicians have lost all sense of reality!

If you worked with secondary school children you wouldn't make that statement. Blended learning does not work, they need to discuss things with their peers, surely that's what adults do as well when working and they have a problem? That doesn't work with remote learning unless the group is very small, around 5 or less. I'm speaking from experience here.
Most children will be fine with most being so close to 100% it may as well be 100%. Currently more are suffering from wellbeing issues than anything the virus will throw at them. Ok, one or two may get seriously ill but we can't keep this charade up just in case.

Exactly - and while this is the Scotland thread it applies across the UK and at least once all the over 50's and clinically vulnerable have had their first vaccination to all the population.

 

[takno]

I actually am a trainer by profession (yes, I know there's a difference between pedagogical and adult learning!) and pretty much all the training that I do is delivered remotely. It definitely doesn't work for early years learning but, if well structured with remote learning in mind from the start, it definitely can and does work for adult learning, and for the latter stages of schooling.

Yes, it's often called homework and pupils usually already do as much of it as is useful, and often quite a lot more. Dumping more of the education system onto the technique that kind-of-maybe-sort-of-works-if-you-lie-about-the-results isn't a plan. Not even to save 30 children in the whole of America (not all of whom had even had Covid).

 

[yorkie]

If you worked with secondary school children you wouldn't make that statement.

Agreed.

Blended learning does not work, they need to discuss things with their peers, surely that's what adults do as well when working and they have a problem? That doesn't work with remote learning unless the group is very small, around 5 or less. I'm speaking from experience here.
Most children will be fine with most being so close to 100% it may as well be 100%. Currently more are suffering from wellbeing issues than anything the virus will throw at them. Ok, one or two may get seriously ill but we can't keep this charade up just in case.

Online learning is great for some students but can be a real struggle for others. It widens the divide. It's also not great for teachers who may have to spend a lot more time trying to help a student who is stuck.

Many students are not making it obvious if they are stuck; in a classroom it would become obvious to the teacher simply by observation which is not always possible with remote learning.

In my school I am aware of several children and staff who tested positive for Sars-CoV-2; I am not aware of any that were anything other than asymptomatic or very mild. The overall number of cases I was aware of was surprisingly low given how many people are at the school and given how close people were in contact. I am not aware of any cases that were suspected to have been caught within the school.

On the other hand I am aware of many children who are suffering in terms of their mental health and/or struggling with the work or even not attending and/or have become addicted to computer games and do not do any exercise. I am aware of many concerns expressed by parents, both directly to me in telephone conversations held with me, or in person discussions (in some cases with parents who are also colleagues) and indirectly as I have heard from colleagues or seen emails sent to the school.

I've also had conversations with staff at other schools, in particular through several forum members who I have personally met who work in schools (many of whom are teachers) and what they have said to me is generally very consistent with my own experiences.

It is absolutely clear to me that anyone who is fully aware of what schools are really like, and what truly goes on within schools, and what the overall balance of risk to children is, would not reach any conclusion other than to fully reopen schools as quickly as possible.

 

[kez19]

It's almost as if I dreamt the fact there was a vaccine which will protect the vulnerable. School children will not become ill and even if they spread it amongst adults, they will soon be protected. The evidence suggests the vaccines protect against severe illness, even if not 100% effective in preventing infection. Covid has a 99% survival rate... Politicians have lost all sense of reality!

Damn I think we have been hoodwinked (quelle a non surprise)

Majority of politicians don’t know what reality is, as long as they get their head in the trough and blow money on ridiculous vanity projects

Oh for crying out loud, this is just going on too long!

I’m sure the public are in a soap opera or the politicians reality tv show!

 

[43096]

I actually am a trainer by profession (yes, I know there's a difference between pedagogical and adult learning!) and pretty much all the training that I do is delivered remotely. It definitely doesn't work for early years learning but, if well structured with remote learning in mind from the start, it definitely can and does work for adult learning, and for the latter stages of schooling.

I deliver training for people as part of my work and can categorically say that though remote learning can be made to work, it is not optimal and delivers less benefits than face-to-face training.

If you believe what you say for schooling, even late stage schooling (what do you define that as?) then I’m afraid you are deluded. All the evidence points to a significant impact on education as a result of the restrictions over the last 12 months.

 

[najaB]

I deliver training for people as part of my work and can categorically say that though remote learning can be made to work, it is not optimal and delivers less benefits than face-to-face training.

That's a commonly-held belief but it is based on people trying to deliver training remotely as if it was face to face. I spent seven years delivering training face to face, and that last four delivering it primarily remotely. I have to design my material differently and change my style of delivery but I get results that are just as good now as I did in the past.

If you enter the instructional design phase with remote delivery in mind you can achieve the same results as you can with face to face delivery.

 

[43096]

That's a commonly-held belief but it is based on people trying to deliver training remotely as if it was face to face. I spent seven years delivering training face to face, and that last four delivering it primarily remotely. I have to design my material differently and change my style of delivery but I get results that are just as good now as I did in the past.

If you enter the instructional design phase with remote delivery in mind you can achieve the same results as you can with face to face delivery.

Jeez. Do you realise how arrogant you sound?

 

[kristiang85]

As someone who has recieved online training this past year, it is nothing like face-to-face in person training. Some people just thrive better off human contact and being in the same room. I am one of those.

Granted, there are some who do really well with online training, but overall it is not better.

 

[Journeyman]

As someone who has recieved online training this past year, it is nothing like face-to-face in person training. Some people just thrive better off human contact and being in the same room. I am one of those.

Granted, there are some who do really well with online training, but overall it is not better.

Any time I've attempted remote learning, I've failed dismally with it. It just doesn't work for me at all.

 

[devon_metro]

The Scottish Government would do well to remember the inequalities across the country. At least at school, everyone is more or less equal - same working environment, same uniform. Remote schooling and home working only exaggerates the inequalities. Children should be in school. Hopefully the opposition parties fight any attempt the SNP government makes to make it a regular feature of the school timetable.

 

[sheff1]

Cartoon in the Metro sums Sturgeon up well

Image with speech bubble "Whatever we do, we must ensure it isn't what England are doing"

 

[Journeyman]

I'd be willing to bet money on loads of restrictions magically vanishing in the week before the election.

 

[Kite159]

I'd be willing to bet money on loads of restrictions magically vanishing in the week before the election.

And reappearing the week after the election if the SNPs get re-elected due to another new variant as they need to "protect the NHS"

 

[takno]

I'd be willing to bet money on loads of restrictions magically vanishing in the week before the election.

Will be funny if they do, considering the current push to get people signing up for a postal vote

 

[kez19]

What I find is a bit ironic (as both uk and Scottish Governments) is they say - protect the NHS isn’t that their job not us as public?

The whole messaging from the outset for me isn’t what I recognised a year ago, which to me makes me think there is something going on, and again this is just me using my own thinking than any theories.

 

[Bantamzen]

That's a commonly-held belief but it is based on people trying to deliver training remotely as if it was face to face. I spent seven years delivering training face to face, and that last four delivering it primarily remotely. I have to design my material differently and change my style of delivery but I get results that are just as good now as I did in the past.

If you enter the instructional design phase with remote delivery in mind you can achieve the same results as you can with face to face delivery.

Schooling isn't just about cramming in information into kids.

 

[Huntergreed]

Anyone arguing that remote learning should become a permanent model for secondary school teaching is clearly clueless about how schools work and what purpose they serve.

Yes, schools are there to teach our children and deliver lessons, however this is far from the only purpose they serve:

They act as a safe environment for pupils who may have an unhealthy/unsafe home environment and give young people a space to feel safe and cared for.

They are somewhere where our young people can gain and develop their social skills in a safe, semi-supervised environment.

They provide young people with many, many opportunities beyond curricular lessons (extra curricular activities in many fields, including sporting, science, drama, music etc... some of which gives invaluable experience which is just as important as qualifications when applying for higher educations/employment)

On top of this, many subjects simply don’t work as well remotely. Science classes are difficult to teach without practical experiments, expressive arts are difficult to teach without practical teaching (which requires specialist equipment often), PE is nearly impossible to teach online (yes fitness can be taught, but team sports etc cannot)

Moving permanently to a blended model of delivery would be catastrophic and anyone suggesting this clearly has no idea what purpose schools serve in society.

 

[initiation]

I was sent this article on the BBC

Covid in Scotland: Virus elimination would 'come at cost'

Scotland's national clinical director says a Covid elimination strategy would stop international travel.

www.bbc.co.uk

A public panel has urged the Scottish government to pursue a Covid elimination strategy.
The body of 19 people was set up by Holyrood's Covid-19 Committee to provide the public's view on the government's approach to coronavirus restrictions and strategy.
It has called for a plan that would try to gradually reduce the number of cases to zero.

Insanity.

 

[Red Onion]

Insanity doesn’t even come close. Closing us off to the outside world? Really?

It’s not even remotely workable, the domestic borders can’t be shut (you would need to find several hundred police from an already stretched force to effectively police it and they know that’s impossible) so I, like many other Scots, would simply drive south and start my holiday somewhere from England. The potential economic devastation is unthinkable.

 

[Scotrail12]

They won’t go Zero COVID - not possible but she’ll definitely blame Boris for it not being an available strategy for her.

 

[Huntergreed]

They won’t go Zero COVID - not possible but she’ll definitely blame Boris for it not being an available strategy for her.

My fear is she might, only to exclaim she can’t due to England to support her election/independence campaign

 

[joncombe]

They won’t go Zero COVID - not possible but she’ll definitely blame Boris for it not being an available strategy for her.

I wouldn't put it past her to at least try, good excuse to keep the "border" closed. She can probably also claim that effectively banning international travel for Scotland is a good way to reduce carbon emissions (even if it would be hugely damaging for tourism in particular). In addition it might be used to try to bolster the case for independence. I.E. if we were to be independent we could eliminate Covid, but it's not possible as part of the union.

 

[Scotrail12]

No exaggeration that if the North of England is open in April and Scotland isn’t because of Zero COVID, I’ll likely make frequent day trips across the border.

Nobody really supports lockdowns any more so she may be doing herself some damage except for when it comes to her most ardent supporters.

 

[duncanp]

They won’t go Zero COVID - not possible but she’ll definitely blame Boris for it not being an available strategy for her.

I think this can be filed under the "..if Scotland was an independent country we could...." heading in advance of the elections in May.

It could never be implemented unless England decided to go with the same policy anyway.

A complete ban on international travel for an indeterminate period would devastate the Scottish economy, and could very well mean the end of events such as the Edinburgh Festival.

Talking of Scotland, I hope Nicola Sturgeon doesn't use the sharp increase in cases in East Ayrshire in the past few days (up 94.4% to 310.6 per 100k, the highest in Scotland and the third highest in the UK) as an excuse to prolong the lockdown. It seems to be connected to an outbreak in Kilmarnock Prison.

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

I think this can be filed under the "..if Scotland was an independent country we could...." heading in advance of the elections in May.

Ah yes, just a shame that if Scotland was an independent country and a member of the EU we probably wouldn't have that "heroic" vaccination rollout she has been battering on about the past week or so.

Talking of Scotland, I hope Nicola Sturgeon doesn't use the sharp increase in cases in East Ayrshire in the past few days (up 94.4% to 310.6 per 100k, the highest in Scotland and the third highest in the UK) as an excuse to prolong the lockdown. It seems to be connected to an outbreak in Kilmarnock Prison.

Oh how ironic. Lets lock people up in prison for 10 years for lying about their trip to Portugal where they can be part of a covid outbreak at the same time.

In other more positive news, a story from my local rag today:

Government Covid adviser says Scotland's vaccine data good enough to warrant quicker lockdown exit

Encouraging evidence that Scotland's vaccination programme is already starting to cut deaths should prompt an earlier end to lockdown, one of Nicola

www.thecourier.co.uk

Encouraging evidence that Scotland’s vaccination programme is already starting to cut deaths should prompt an earlier end to lockdown, one of Nicola Sturgeon’s advisers has said.

The Daily Telegraph is reporting comments from Mark Woolhouse, professor of infectious disease epidemiology at the University of Edinburgh, saying that numbers from the Pfizer and AstraZeneca vaccines are “looking really good”.

Prof Woolhouse, who sits on the Scottish Government’s Covid-19 advisory group, told a House of Commons select committee: “If you’re driven by the data and not by dates, right now, you should be looking at earlier unlocking.”

He is quoted as saying the “whole sequence” that Ms Sturgeon was planning to use to ease restrictions could be accelerated because of the “very positive” data.

Prof Woolhouse also told MPs that children under 16 could return to classrooms in the “reasonably near future” without triggering a large increase in the “R” rate.

He also warned the “value of a lockdown goes down with time”, with half the public health benefit of a six-month lockdown being felt in the first fortnight.

But Jason Leitch, Scotland's national clinical director didn't like that:

Speaking to Good Morning Scotland today, national clinical director Jason Leitch said the Scottish Government had “deliberately” avoided giving specific dates for ending lockdown.

He said: “I thought Mark’s evidence was good, the only challenge there is earlier than what? We haven’t actually given dates and we’ve done that deliberately because we just aren’t sure about vaccine progress and vaccine remission reduction.

“If that goes well, if care home data is re-produced in the next few weeks, then yes, we will be able to advise that unlocking can happen at this gradual rate.

“Remember though, that when you unlock something, you don’t know what it’s done for three weeks.

“You can’t tell, it’s impossible. That’s why this first phase of schools needs to happen and then we wait three weeks and see what happens next.”

 

[Bantamzen]

I wouldn't put it past her to at least try, good excuse to keep the "border" closed. She can probably also claim that effectively banning international travel for Scotland is a good way to reduce carbon emissions (even if it would be hugely damaging for tourism in particular). In addition it might be used to try to bolster the case for independence. I.E. if we were to be independent we could eliminate Covid, but it's not possible as part of the union.

Nail meet hammer. Sturgeon is lining up another "this is why Scotland needs independence" policy through covid. It is politically motivated, nothing to do with science (which happens to agree that elimination is almost impossible).

No exaggeration that if the North of England is open in April and Scotland isn’t because of Zero COVID, I’ll likely make frequent day trips across the border.

Nobody really supports lockdowns any more so she may be doing herself some damage except for when it comes to her most ardent supporters.

That assumes we haven't called in the Italians to re-build the wall...

 

[takno]

Ah yes, just a shame that if Scotland was an independent country and a member of the EU we probably wouldn't have that "heroic" vaccination rollout she has been battering on about the past week or so.


Oh how ironic. Lets lock people up in prison for 10 years for lying about their trip to Portugal where they can be part of a covid outbreak at the same time.

In other more positive news, a story from my local rag today:

Government Covid adviser says Scotland's vaccine data good enough to warrant quicker lockdown exit

Encouraging evidence that Scotland's vaccination programme is already starting to cut deaths should prompt an earlier end to lockdown, one of Nicola

www.thecourier.co.uk

But Jason Leitch, Scotland's national clinical director didn't like that:

Jason Leitch said "but we haven't given any dates", following it immediately with an outline plan of doing nothing for several weeks, and then stretching everything out in 3 week blocks until the country is fully bankrupted. I'm not sure he fully understands that even when he tells us almost nothing, the almost nothing he does tell us can still be irretrievably and catastrophically bad