New York Metropolitan Transportation Authority (MTA) faces financial disaster

[Bletchleyite]

Yep, this is pretty much the actual reason for the overnight closure.

Thanks. So in a way not because of COVID, but rather taking advantage of the reduced passengers during COVID (who could fit onto buses) to solve another totally unrelated issue?

 

[67thave]

Thanks. So in a way not because of COVID, but rather taking advantage of the reduced passengers during COVID (who could fit onto buses) to solve another totally unrelated issue?

The MTA actually added a lot of overnight bus service during COVID, with many routes actually gaining late-night service for the first time ever. So it wasn't really that they could fit onto the buses that were already in service - it was just that "closure for cleaning" was a very good excuse to clear the homeless under.

 

[Shinkansenfan]

As of 17 May 2021, 24/7 subway service has reopened to the public.

 

[drexelhub]

It is regrettable that due to the pandemic, transport problems have arisen in New York. This greatly disrupts the city's logistics, and it is inconvenient for many to get to work. The number of traffic jams is increasing. But I am glad that the restrictions are gradually being lifted, and hotels in New York are starting to work actively again. A friend of mine recently came and stayed at a hotel from Westgate. I was left under a pleasant impression and promised to return. )
After all, how much do train stations, subways, and hotels affect the impression of the city. When everything is dirty, noisy, and uncomfortable, you will not want to go back.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

It is regrettable that due to the pandemic, transport problems have arisen in New York. This greatly disrupts the city's logistics, and it is inconvenient for many to get to work. The number of traffic jams is increasing. But I am glad that the restrictions are gradually being lifted, and hotels in New York are starting to work actively again. A friend of mine recently came and stayed at a hotel from Westgate. I was left under a pleasant impression and promised to return. )
After all, how much do train stations, subways, and hotels affect the impression of the city. When everything is dirty, noisy, and uncomfortable, you will not want to go back.

Be grateful it was not being visited in say the late 1970's and beyond , when the subways were in a dire state operationally and presentationally , when crime was rampant , the city was effectively bankrupt and services like litter cleaning , policing and education was well below par. Economically a lot of jobs had left. The famous response from Washington for fiscal assistance was "no"

Things are very much better today , though not without some concerns about growing subway crime and incidents. It is a city that will bounce back.

 

[Jozhua]

Byford left because Andrew Cuomo is an evil, incompetent megalomaniac who couldn't bear to see other people be more successful than him.

The subway desperately needs zonal fares. The system is way to big for one single fare to work in a way that is fair. Someone making a short trip in Brooklyn is charged the same as someone commuting from East Brooklyn to their job on the Hudson. Also, the current gate setup means that once you're in, there's no real way to enforce fares. This makes fare evasion much more appealing than on the Tube or Metrolink, where sure, you can get on a train without paying easy enough, but if you do that for a week's commute, your chance of getting a penalty fare/fine are pretty high. It also means that paying a single fare once and never really leaving (e.g. for panhandling) is the norm. I do feel bad for the homeless, but it's hard for random members of the public trying to get around to do anything positive about it. (Doesn't help many regional cities bus out their homeless for the big cities to deal with...)

The fact of the matter is, the cost to ride the New York subway is pretty low, given the cost of living and to an extent, incomes, of the city it resides in. If price rises could be distributed more evenly among passengers (with some zoning, subsidised fares for low income/students, etc), I think the subway could be in a more sustainable state. That said, the state and city need to stop raiding the MTA like it is some municipal piggy bank and start treating it like an organisation that actually matters for keeping the economy of New York moving. - Many of the issues reside with out of touch government, who never actually rely on these services for their day to day lives.

If it wasn't done to save money, why was it done?

Theatre lol

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Byford left because Andrew Cuomo is an evil, incompetent megalomaniac who couldn't bear to see other people be more successful than him.

The subway desperately needs zonal fares. The system is way to big for one single fare to work in a way that is fair. Someone making a short trip in Brooklyn is charged the same as someone commuting from East Brooklyn to their job on the Hudson. Also, the current gate setup means that once you're in, there's no real way to enforce fares. This makes fare evasion much more appealing than on the Tube or Metrolink, where sure, you can get on a train without paying easy enough, but if you do that for a week's commute, your chance of getting a penalty fare/fine are pretty high. It also means that paying a single fare once and never really leaving (e.g. for panhandling) is the norm. I do feel bad for the homeless, but it's hard for random members of the public trying to get around to do anything positive about it. (Doesn't help many regional cities bus out their homeless for the big cities to deal with...)

The fact of the matter is, the cost to ride the New York subway is pretty low, given the cost of living and to an extent, incomes, of the city it resides in. If price rises could be distributed more evenly among passengers (with some zoning, subsidised fares for low income/students, etc), I think the subway could be in a more sustainable state. That said, the state and city need to stop raiding the MTA like it is some municipal piggy bank and start treating it like an organisation that actually matters for keeping the economy of New York moving. - Many of the issues reside with out of touch government, who never actually rely on these services for their day to day lives.

Theatre lol

Good luck with that (though I do not disagree) - riders complain like hell over service levels etc , but they are as you say getting a tremendous deal of access to something like 300 route miles and in (generally) clean and air conditioned trains. 24/7

Extra fares were charged for the Rockaways a long time ago and eventually pulled. Cheap fares pulled the system down fiscally as far back as the 1920's (they were not allowed to be increased from the 5 cents agreed in 1904 ! - ) and it became a real problem later on when "investment" money was spent on keeping the service going as patronage dropped from the mid 1950's and led partly to the catastrophic decline in quality of service from then , compounded by the many ills of the city and the bad years of high crime and endemic graffiti vandalisim etc.

Tough call , anyone who suggests that without massive improvements to the ambience of the subway is in for a hard time. I have been a fan since I discovered it in the 1980's and on my last trip in 2019 I was impressed by the progress made on upgrades and so on , (and there were plenty of posters telling you what they were doing like track renewals and station improvements) , but in terms of getting riders to pay more for same , a nightmare.

 

[Jozhua]

Good luck with that (though I do not disagree) - riders complain like hell over service levels etc , but they are as you say getting a tremendous deal of access to something like 300 route miles and in (generally) clean and air conditioned trains. 24/7

Extra fares were charged for the Rockaways a long time ago and eventually pulled. Cheap fares pulled the system down fiscally as far back as the 1920's (they were not allowed to be increased from the 5 cents agreed in 1904 ! - ) and it became a real problem later on when "investment" money was spent on keeping the service going as patronage dropped from the mid 1950's and led partly to the catastrophic decline in quality of service from then , compounded by the many ills of the city and the bad years of high crime and endemic graffiti vandalisim etc.

Tough call , anyone who suggests that without massive improvements to the ambience of the subway is in for a hard time. I have been a fan since I discovered it in the 1980's and on my last trip in 2019 I was impressed by the progress made on upgrades and so on , (and there were plenty of posters telling you what they were doing like track renewals and station improvements) , but in terms of getting riders to pay more for same , a nightmare.

Yeah, it's weird. Unfortunately I don't think NYC's system has allowed for fare increases to be baked in, which hampers it in even keeping up with inflation. The one single fare makes it really easy to get angry about, wheras it is usually a bit more complicated with zones, etc. In some ways that's good, in others bad. The problem is passengers see paying more as an offence if they aren't getting a reliable service, but they don't get a reliable service because they don't really pay for it (either in fares, or taxes.)

The MTA has made big improvements in communication and Byford-era policies might help carry it through, but I fear that things will only go backwards with his departure and the absolute lemon that is Cuomo being in charge.

 

[Bikeman78]

Be grateful it was not being visited in say the late 1970's and beyond , when the subways were in a dire state operationally and presentationally , when crime was rampant , the city was effectively bankrupt and services like litter cleaning , policing and education was well below par. Economically a lot of jobs had left. The famous response from Washington for fiscal assistance was "no"

Things are very much better today , though not without some concerns about growing subway crime and incidents. It is a city that will bounce back.

The stations are pretty grim, much grubbier than London but the trains are generally very good. Even the 55 year old R32 cars were clean and well turned out in 2019. I've seen very little in the way of crime or disorder. I had no problem travelling to any part of the network until late in the evening. I've never used the overnight trains though. I agree the fares are cheap, around 35 dollars for a seven day unlimited pass.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The stations are pretty grim, much grubbier than London but the trains are generally very good. Even the 55 year old R32 cars were clean and well turned out in 2019. I've seen very little in the way of crime or disorder. I had no problem travelling to any part of the network until late in the evening. I've never used the overnight trains though. I agree the fares are cheap, around 35 dollars for a seven day unlimited pass.

Agreed - the stations are at best basic , we stayed last time in Brooklyn with Hoyt-Schemerhorn as the local stop , bleak in the extreme (almost like a prison with bars etc) , but not helped by trackside rats visible in the middle of the day. Trains are spotless as you say , and was blessed by a few last rides on those superb R32's , now alas gone.

What was excellent was their sponsorship of an amazing "running day" on the Brighton Beach station , with masses of heritage trains in service for the cost of a Metrocard swipe - in London that would have cost about £50 for a ride on one train out in Metroland .......(we built our trip around that weekend ! - but we did a lot of other non NYC stuff)

The comparison with the 1980's is extreme - trains were pretty empty even in Manhattan after say 2000 , and the ambience was pretty dire - our last trip had very busy trains late evening and the vibe was relaxed . compared to previous decades. You could then almost feel the tension in those days.

It is a great system though.

 

[Bikeman78]

Agreed - the stations are at best basic , we stayed last time in Brooklyn with Hoyt-Schemerhorn as the local stop , bleak in the extreme (almost like a prison with bars etc) , but not helped by trackside rats visible in the middle of the day. Trains are spotless as you say , and was blessed by a few last rides on those superb R32's , now alas gone.

What was excellent was their sponsorship of an amazing "running day" on the Brighton Beach station , with masses of heritage trains in service for the cost of a Metrocard swipe - in London that would have cost about £50 for a ride on one train out in Metroland .......(we built our trip around that weekend ! - but we did a lot of other non NYC stuff)

The comparison with the 1980's is extreme - trains were pretty empty even in Manhattan after say 2000 , and the ambience was pretty dire - our last trip had very busy trains late evening and the vibe was relaxed . compared to previous decades. You could then almost feel the tension in those days.

It is a great system though.

I don't mind rats and my children are fascinated by them. Some of the worst stations are in Manhattan on the J line. Some have platforms that have been disused for decades and are falling apart.

I usually stood at the front of the R32 cars for the forward view. My little girl was four during my last trip and called them "magic trains" because she thought they didn't have a driver and moved by themselves. Managed to do the whole A line network on R32, bizarrely Far Rockaway was ticked off on a Sunday when there ought to have been plenty of R46 to cover everything. I'll miss the old cars but I like the new R160/R179 cars too.

Several years ago I had a run on the preserved Low-V cars. They are amazing. 100 years old and they still belt along. The ceiling fans were surprisingly effective despite the temperature being 30 degrees. As you say, it cost almost nothing to ride on them.

 

[nlogax]

I highly, highly recommend the MTA Museum in Brooklyn if you've not already done it. Having an entire platform and two tracks available for multiple generations of heritage stock is a blessing. It feels like a mini Acton down there.

 

[Jozhua]

I highly, highly recommend the MTA Museum in Brooklyn if you've not already done it. Having an entire platform and two tracks available for multiple generations of heritage stock is a blessing. It feels like a mini Acton down there.

That place is fantastic, a little tricky to find, but great!

I didn't realise it was an old subway station, so took a while to realise I was just looking for a standard subway entrance.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

That place is fantastic, a little tricky to find, but great!

I didn't realise it was an old subway station, so took a while to realise I was just looking for a standard subway entrance.

What was the "HH" local - a very short shuttle from Hoyt and Schemerhorn. The great thing is that it is directly connected to the network so cars can be let out onto the network (and are) , and an excellent place for filming. Always a place to visit when in NYC.

 

[Bikeman78]

The comparison with the 1980's is extreme - trains were pretty empty even in Manhattan after say 2000 , and the ambience was pretty dire - our last trip had very busy trains late evening and the vibe was relaxed . compared to previous decades. You could then almost feel the tension in those days.

Plenty of footage on Youtube, see video below showing filmed in 1986. Starts off at 42nd St Port Authority Bus Terminal, a station I've been to many times. The station hasn't changed that much but the R32 cars looked much better aged 50 than they did when they were 20. Classic R32 brake squeal at the one minute mark on the first video and the "Step in, watch the doors" announcement lives on 35 years later.

New York Subway 1986 NYC -directors cut- with stereo audio track.mpg - YouTube

Here is a film from 2020 just before the R32 finished.

⁴ᴷ⁶⁰ R32 Type Subway Car Temporarily Removed from Service - YouTube

I highly, highly recommend the MTA Museum in Brooklyn if you've not already done it. Having an entire platform and two tracks available for multiple generations of heritage stock is a blessing. It feels like a mini Acton down there.

Yes I've been there, it is excellent. I'll go there again on my next visit and take the kids with me. They enjoy going to transport museums and climbing on old trains etc.

 

[Shinkansenfan]

Actually the MTA (which includes the NYC Transit System) does have a policy of adjusting fares to keep pace with inflation.

Here's one reference: https://www.newsday.com/long-island/transportation/lirr-rate-hike-mta-1.50050624

MTA moves ahead with planned rate hike for LIRR​

The MTA is taking the first steps toward a potential fare increase next year, including on the Long Island Rail Road, despite calls from riders and advocates to postpone a rate hike that they said could keep away many of the same lapsed commuters the agency is trying to win back.

At the Metropolitan Transportation Authority’s monthly board meeting Wednesday, MTA chairman Patrick Foye announced that the agency was "beginning the standard process of the MTA’s fare and toll policy review." It was the MTA’s first acknowledgment, since the COVID-19 pandemic began, of its intention to stick to its policy — adopted a decade ago — of raising fares every other year.

Under that policy, the MTA usually raises fares and tolls by about 4% every two years — a rate, the agency said, that aims to keep up with inflation.

A specific rate hike plan is typically released late in the year, followed by a series of public hearings on the proposal. Following approval by the MTA Board, the new rates are enacted in the first quarter of the following year.

<article continues...>

As for eliminating the flat subway fare, the flat fare is considered a New Yorker's birthright! Entire generations have made domicile decisions based upon their expected commuting costs. Studies have shown that some of the riders earning the lowest incomes commute from afar--so efforts to increase their subway fares would likely be met with cries of social injustice.