Night Tube

[moogal]

Used it for the first time Saturday night - certainly made getting back from South London to East London a hell of a lot easier and quicker than the usual 2 1/2 hours of night buses!

Loadings seemed pretty respectable (this was around 3am) - on the Victoria Line I was going against the flow but there were a decent number of people getting on at Vauxhall, and at Oxford Circus the Central Line platform was well-patronised. I was sat at the less busy end front of the train (deliberately) but there were lots of people down at the other end near the platform entrance, but even then all the seats were taken and we had a few standees.

It's a sea change from the horrors of the 25 (slow, usually packed to the rafters and impossible to board anywhere east of Tottenham Court Road). I was pretty impressed.

 

[transmanche]

If the night tube services do prove to be predominantly used for non essential leisure travel especially by late night party goers, those of us outside London will feel even more let down as we see our bus services cut yet again.

Then the people of Nottinghamshire (and elsewhere) who feel aggrreived need to lobby their politicians to change the system.

Bus deregulation has failed. Whereas in London, bus travel has grown enourmously under the regulated system; where 'profits' from busy rush-hour services are used to subsidise the less-busy services. Outside of London, commercial operators are happy to cream off the profits from busy services, but leave it to councils to pick up the bill for other services.

This far, the only attempt to change the system was in Tyne & Wear, where the plans for bus regulation were scuppered by the unelected and unaccountable Traffic Commissioners on the basis that it would reduce the profits of the bus operators.

 

[duncanp]

I would like to ask what might seem like a really stupid question about the night tube.

Both entrances to Euston tube station, and some of the entrances to Kings Cross tube station, are within the National Rail stations. However these stations are normally closed at night.

So with the Victoria Line running 24 hours at weekends, have special arrangements been made to keep at least part of both National Rail stations open, so that customers can enter and exit the tube?

There is no other way of getting into Euston tube station except by going through the National Rail station.

 

[bluegoblin7]

I would like to ask what might seem like a really stupid question about the night tube.

Both entrances to Euston tube station, and some of the entrances to Kings Cross tube station, are within the National Rail stations. However these stations are normally closed at night.

So with the Victoria Line running 24 hours at weekends, have special arrangements been made to keep at least part of both National Rail stations open, so that customers can enter and exit the tube?

There is no other way of getting into Euston tube station except by going through the National Rail station.

Not sure about Euston, I didn't get chance to check the last couple of weeks.

At King's Cross we're operating with all of the NR entrances closed - there's the main, Euston Road, entrance; the 'South East' stairs at the front of KX; and the 'Regent's Canal' entrance 'round the back' between St. Pancras and King's Cross, opening onto King's Boulevard/Pancras Road. Strangely, the entrance directly into St. Pancras from the North (new) side of the station remains closed, despite St. P being open 24/7. The entire Western side of the station, and as such the 'other' entrance from St. p, is entirely closed.

You didn't ask, but another station affected as such is Liverpool Street. In this instance, the Old Broad Street entrance is the sole one in use when Liv. St. is closed.

 

[Mojo]

Access to Euston is via the entrance by Sainsburys; you then go down the staircase or the lifts that are right by this entrance. There are Network Rail signs up all over Euston to this effect.

 

[duncanp]

Access to Euston is via the entrance by Sainsburys; you then go down the staircase or the lifts that are right by this entrance. There are Network Rail signs up all over Euston to this effect.

Thanks for letting me know.

I suppose they rope off the rest of the station so that people cannot wander everywhere all night, nor can people sneak in and use it as a doss house. (Not that they need to - they can just go up and down the Victoria Line all night)

 

[mrmartin]

I think as people have said it's the quietest time of the network anyway in August, so there is some suppression of it as people are away on holiday or what not.

The other factor is that there is very definitely a network effect to this - once it is up and running with all lines I think you'll see loadings increase - people are likely to either use the night tube the whole way or not at all. I don't think much uber to a station + night tube will go on (people are lazy).

The other longer term effect is that people's nights out will change to match the night tube. This will take some time, but I imagine places with the night tube will see bars opening later than other areas and pull in people as a 'meeting point'.

 

[Comstock]

Hi, a quick question from me if no-one minds.

Have the night bus services been reduced/removed along the routes that the Night Tube serves?

 

[Mojo]

Hi, a quick question from me if no-one minds.

Have the night bus services been reduced/removed along the routes that the Night Tube serves?

Not yet. In fact there have been some new services introduced.

The plan now is to wait and see how it beds in before making Night bus reduction.

 

[infobleep]

I know my nights out in London won't change as I don't live there.

Most awkward can be going to concerts at the O2 when it's not a Sunday night. There is a letter train home on a Sunday night, which is why that night is OK.

Wembley Arena or Stadium can also be a nightmare but again, not on a Sunday night.

If they don't need so many night buses on existing routes I the future, perhaps they could extend some of them to places outside of London. As it's not possible to run trains overnight, run some buses instead.

May not be popular of course, in which case it wouldn't be viable.

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[Busaholic]

I know my nights out in London won't change as I don't live there.

Most awkward can be going to concerts at the O2 when it's not a Sunday night. There is a letter train home on a Sunday night, which is why that night is OK.

Wembley Arena or Stadium can also be a nightmare but again, not on a Sunday night.

If they don't need so many night buses on existing routes I the future, perhaps they could extend some of them to places outside of London. As it's not possible to run trains overnight, run some buses instead.

May not be popular of course, in which case it wouldn't be viable.

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I won't begin to enumerate all the reasons why this almost certainly won't happen, just name one. FLAT FARE. There are no exceptions to this on the London bus network, not even the X26 between Croydon and Heathrow. That fare takes you one stop or the whole route. It would be economic madness to extend routes to Harlow, High Wycombe and Higham on that basis, apart from all the other considerations.

 

[infobleep]

I won't begin to enumerate all the reasons why this almost certainly won't happen, just name one. FLAT FARE. There are no exceptions to this on the London bus network, not even the X26 between Croydon and Heathrow. That fare takes you one stop or the whole route. It would be economic madness to extend routes to Harlow, High Wycombe and Higham on that basis, apart from all the other considerations.

Dorking to Kingston is one hour and that is a flat fare. Guildford to Kingston is one hour and that isn't a flat fare.

So it is done during the day at least but I'm sure it wouldn't happen at night.

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[transmanche]

Dorking to Kingston is one hour and that is a flat fare. Guildford to Kingston is one hour and that isn't a flat fare.

So it is done during the day at least but I'm sure it wouldn't happen at night.

I'm not sure what your point is here...

Dorking - Kingston route 465 is a TfL route and charges TfL fares; hence the £1.50 flat fare.

Guildford - Kingston route 515 is not a TfL Route; it is operated commercially by Abellio Surry and the fares charged will be whatever Abellio think the market will bear.

(Basically from £2.20-£4.00. They don't take Oyster, but if you have an Oyster Card they charge £1.60 for journeys between Kingston & Esher.)

 

[Deerfold]

I won't begin to enumerate all the reasons why this almost certainly won't happen, just name one. FLAT FARE. There are no exceptions to this on the London bus network, not even the X26 between Croydon and Heathrow. That fare takes you one stop or the whole route. It would be economic madness to extend routes to Harlow, High Wycombe and Higham on that basis, apart from all the other considerations.

I doubt TfL would extend the night bus network beyond the boundaries of London unless another local authority offered to help with costs. However it's not that long ago that there were only 2 bus fares within London but much higher fares on routes such as the 81 once you were travelling outside London. Although this would be trickier to implement with Oyster I doubt it'd be impossible to have a surcharge for trips outside the zones if someone wanted to make that policy decision.

 

[Mojo]

Maybe they could use the redundant conductors off the Borismasters to wait at the first stop outside of London and collect fares

 

[infobleep]

I'm not sure what your point is here...

Dorking - Kingston route 465 is a TfL route and charges TfL fares; hence the £1.50 flat fare.

Guildford - Kingston route 515 is not a TfL Route; it is operated commercially by Abellio Surry and the fares charged will be whatever Abellio think the market will bear.

(Basically from £2.20-£4.00. They don't take Oyster, but if you have an Oyster Card they charge £1.60 for journeys between Kingston & Esher.)

The point I'm making is that journeys from London to outside of London do take place. This was after someone said night bus to outside London wouldn't happen. I'm no saying someone would want to pay for journeys to run during the night outside of London but it is possible if someone wanted to pay.

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[bramling]

I think as people have said it's the quietest time of the network anyway in August, so there is some suppression of it as people are away on holiday or what not.

The other factor is that there is very definitely a network effect to this - once it is up and running with all lines I think you'll see loadings increase - people are likely to either use the night tube the whole way or not at all. I don't think much uber to a station + night tube will go on (people are lazy).

The other longer term effect is that people's nights out will change to match the night tube. This will take some time, but I imagine places with the night tube will see bars opening later than other areas and pull in people as a 'meeting point'.

Looking at the Victoria Line, still quite low loadings this last weekend. A brief skim through finds no train above 30% loading, most averaging between 5 and 15%.

Whilst this may be comparative to some off-peak times, it's hardly efficient bearing in mind the infrequency of the service, and the fixed costs of station staffing, running costs etc.

Time will tell if things will pick up.

 

[transmanche]

The point I'm making is that journeys from London to outside of London do take place. This was after someone said night bus to outside London wouldn't happen. I'm no saying someone would want to pay for journeys to run during the night outside of London but it is possible if someone wanted to pay.

Well that's not what you said! You said that buses between Kingston and Guildford don't charge a flat fare. But it's irrelevant as the journey from Kingston to Guildford is a non-TfL route - so why would TfL want to start providing a Night Bus service between Kingston and Guildford?

 

[infobleep]

Well that's not what you said! You said that buses between Kingston and Guildford don't charge a flat fare. But it's irrelevant as the journey from Kingston to Guildford is a non-TfL route - so why would TfL want to start providing a Night Bus service between Kingston and Guildford?

OK I got that but wrong.

However surely Dorking to Kingston wasn't always a TfL route and if that was the case, I don't know if it ever was, why would they want to start running TfL buses? They would because someone contributed for them to do so.

Therefore although unlikely, it's not technically infisable for someone to contribute to a night bus running from inside to outside of London. That was really the point I was making. I did get some technical details wrong though. I should have left those out as it makes no difference to my point.

I wasn't solely referring to Guildford by the way. It just happens that I know of a route that isn't TfL priced from end to end vers one that is. Both starting outside of London and both finishing in the same part of Greater London.

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[transmanche]

OK I got that but wrong.

However surely Dorking to Kingston wasn't always a TfL route and if that was the case, I don't know if it ever was, why would they want to start running TfL buses? They would because someone contributed for them to do so.

465 has been an LRT/TfL route since it started in 1991.

London's red buses have always run beyond the Greater London boundary (mainly because that boundary didn't exist until 1965) but in more recent years many cross-border services have been cut back. TfL don't run buses between Barnet and Potters Bar anymore. Waltham Cross has become a 'Bus Berlin Wall' as no TfL buses go beyond Waltham Cross nowadays; whilst country routes, like the 310 which used to continue to Enfield Town, now terminate at Waltham Cross.

 

[Be3G]

TfL don't run buses between Barnet and Potters Bar anymore. Waltham Cross has become a 'Bus Berlin Wall' as no TfL buses go beyond Waltham Cross nowadays; whilst country routes, like the 310 which used to continue to Enfield Town, now terminate at Waltham Cross.

Did TfL (or their predecessors) ever run regular services between Barnet and Potters Bar? All I've known of is the commercial route 84, but my knowledge doesn't go back that far. (Incidentally TfL do still serve the route, but only with a school bus.)

I like your ‘bus Berlin wall’ description, Waltham Cross pretty much is like that.

 

[Deerfold]

Did TfL (or their predecessors) ever run regular services between Barnet and Potters Bar? All I've known of is the commercial route 84, but my knowledge doesn't go back that far. (Incidentally TfL do still serve the route, but only with a school bus.)

I like your ‘bus Berlin wall’ description, Waltham Cross pretty much is like that.

Route 84 was run by London Regional Transport until 1982 when London Country took it over. With deregulation and privatisation this part of London Country eventually became Metroline.

 

[transmanche]

Did TfL (or their predecessors) ever run regular services between Barnet and Potters Bar? All I've known of is the commercial route 84, but my knowledge doesn't go back that far. (Incidentally TfL do still serve the route, but only with a school bus.)

Gosh yes, how far back do you want to go?

Until the early 80s, the 84 was an LT route out of Potters Bar Garage. (As was the 242, until the late 80s.)

Routes such as 134, 234, 263, 326 and 383 all used to run between Barnet and Potters Bar - plus other buses running 'in-service' garage journeys.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

With deregulation and privatisation this part of London Country eventually became Metroline.

I think it was more that London Buses won back the contract from Herts CC to operate it in the late 80s and it's stayed at Potters Bar Garage ever since - all that's changed is the name of the owner (London Northern, MTL London Northern, Metroline).

 

[Deerfold]

I think it was more that London Buses won back the contract from Herts CC to operate it in the late 80s and it's stayed at Potters Bar Garage ever since - all that's changed is the name of the owner (London Northern, MTL London Northern, Metroline).

Route 84 is not a Herts CC subsidised route. It's operated entirely commercially.

 

[transmanche]

Route 84 is not a Herts CC subsidised route. It's operated entirely commercially.

I didn't say it is. I said that it was, thirty years ago when London Buses won the contract from London Country.

I then said that the route stayed based at Potters Bar; where it has always operated from - apart from that short period of time (about four years) when the route was operated by London Country, from its St Albans garage.

 

[philjo]

Route 298 from Southgate used to go out to South Mimms until about 2002.
At that time I used a zones 4,5,6 travelcard season to use it on the bus from Potters Bar station to south Mimms.
It was then diverted to Cranborne road (& the 313 cut back to Potters Bar station).
Route 398 (SUllivan's) then started running to serve south mimms (covered under Potters Bar PlusBus). I think this was initially HCC subsidised but is now fully commercial.

298 and 313 are still TfL services at potters Bar station so these accept oyster. (confusing those who then find that they cannot use Oyster on the trains from potters Bar ...)

 

[transmanche]

298 and 313 are still TfL services at potters Bar station so these accept oyster. (confusing those who then find that they cannot use Oyster on the trains from potters Bar ...)

To bring it vaguely back on-topic; Night Buses N20 and N91 used to serve Potters Bar and even today most buses on those routes are based at Potters Bar garage. But it's unlikely that TfL will want to restore night bus services to a town outside the Greater London boundary.

 

[duncanp]

298 and 313 are still TfL services at potters Bar station so these accept oyster. (confusing those who then find that they cannot use Oyster on the trains from potters Bar ...)

This is the same with Epsom, Leathehead and Dorking, which you can get to by using Tfl bus services, but cannot then use Oyster on the trains.

Not to be confused with Epsom Downs and Tattenham Corner, where you can use Oyster to get there on the train, but cannot use it on the various bus services that serve these stations.

 

[transmanche]

This is the same with Epsom, Leathehead and Dorking, which you can get to by using Tfl bus services, but cannot then use Oyster on the trains.

And Slough. Although I can see why you'd want to forget about Slough...

 

[Busaholic]

Without looking up the precise details, off the top of my head, the 84 and predecessors were serving Potters Bar, Barnet and St Albans in the 1930s; the 65 from Ealing terminated at Leatherhead Garage, which was a LT country area garage, in the 1950s and 1960s, possibly earlier. I can only remember a red bus i.e. central area 93 bus to Dorking on Summer Sundays in the 1950s, basically an extension from Epsom of the Putney Bridge route. I think my godmother and I used this once from her home in Morden: we were picnicking on Box Hill.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I doubt TfL would extend the night bus network beyond the boundaries of London unless another local authority offered to help with costs. However it's not that long ago that there were only 2 bus fares within London but much higher fares on routes such as the 81 once you were travelling outside London. Although this would be trickier to implement with Oyster I doubt it'd be impossible to have a surcharge for trips outside the zones if someone wanted to make that policy decision.

Given that authorities like Herts and Kent have recently reduced or abolished all subsidies to operators for evening routes, I would imagine their council taxpayers would not be too impressed to learn those same authorities were going to subsidise people returning from their jollies in Leicester Square or Camden Town on a Friday or Saturday night.

Re your last sentence, I have to entirely disagree, assuming the bus route in question would be calling at stops in Greater London before crossing the boundary. Neither the driver nor the Oyster machine would know how far you were travelling, so you'd have to tap OUT with your Oyster i.e. a negation of the tap-in only Oyster system for buses.