Northern Line Battersea Extension - Opened September 20 2021

[Dstock7080]

In the new timetable all the Battersea trains run to/from High Barnet except for a handful of early/Late trains to Edgware & Mill Hill East which is interesting as when the service was oringinally going to bve spilt into 2 lines it was going to run from Edgware to Battersea and the Northern Line High Barnet/Mill Hill East to Morden.

As said above, there are off-peak (M-F, Sat, SUN) trains from Battersea to Mill Hill East every hour
The majority of trains after 1700 M-F run to Edgware

 

[Daniel]

Given the new timetable comes in on the 19th, one wonders if there will be a “soft launch” on the Sunday afternoon, as tends to be TfL practice nowadays.

I believe that is the plan, but out of service as the previous instructor training runs have been.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Signs have been updated at Waterloo and King’s Cross -> and probably everywhere else too, but those were the only two stations I used.

Image shows a Northern Line route map displayed at the entrance to the Northern Line platforms at Waterloo, showing that Nine Elms and Battersea Power Station have been added to the map.

 

[Adoarable]

Diagrams also updated on Northern line trains (or at least the carriage I was on today).

 

[bramling]

Diagrams also updated on Northern line trains (or at least the carriage I was on today).

A fine mess there! This is partly of course the result of the extension going in zone 1 for political reasons, when really it’s quite obviously well outside what most would consider to be natural zone 1.

Indeed, you have Battersea Park just a stone’s throw down the road in Zone 2, and Stockwell just round the corner from Nine Elms also firmly in zone 2. It makes little sense really.

The tail has well and truly wagged the TFL dog here, not great for a cash-strapped organisation.

 

[Ianno87]

A fine mess there! This is partly of course the result of the extension going in zone 1 for political reasons, when really it’s quite obviously well outside what most would consider to be natural zone 1.

Indeed, you have Battersea Park just a stone’s throw down the road in Zone 2, and Stockwell just round the corner from Nine Elms also firmly in zone 2. It makes little sense really.

The tail has well and truly wagged the TFL dog here, not great for a cash-strapped organisation.

When the developers have chucked in a pretty hefty chunk of the scheme cost, I think they have some bargaining power in the matter!

 

[bramling]

When the developers have chucked in a pretty hefty chunk of the scheme cost, I think they have some bargaining power in the matter!

Indeed, however by the same token if they wish to tag something on the side of a pre-existing asset then one would think there would also be some hefty bargaining power the other way, especially as Battersea brings little benefit to TFL and every benefit to the developer.

Whilst Nine Elms has Vauxhall just round the corner, the real target is Battersea itself, and in reality few will choose Battersea Park (itself in zone 2) over the Northern Line. There’s not much in the way of alternatives, not least with the small matter of a big river in the way, so a zone 2 Battersea would have been a pretty captive market.

This extension wouldn’t have happened were it not for the developer contribution, the benefits to London are marginal at best. I’m not sure we should all be subsidising journeys for Battersea passengers on essentially a forever basis, which now seems to be what we’re lumbered with.

 

[Ianno87]

Indeed, however by the same token if they wish to tag something on the side of a pre-existing asset then one would think there would also be some hefty bargaining power the other way, especially as Battersea brings little benefit to TFL and every benefit to the developer.

Whilst Nine Elms has Vauxhall just round the corner, the real target is Battersea itself, and in reality few will choose Battersea Park (itself in zone 2) over the Northern Line.

This extension wouldn’t have happened were it not for the developer contribution, the benefits to London are marginal at best. I’m not sure we should all be subsidising journeys for Battersea passengers on essentially a forever basis, which now seems to be what we’re lumbered with.

It would be interesting to know, once demand builds up, whether the extension is "cost neutral" to TfL - I.e. the additional fares revenue generated exceeds the net additional operating cost. In theory, a lower Zone 1 fare stimulates slightly more demand.

Plus it may attract usage from Battersea Park and Queenstown Rd stations - revenue that currently goes to GTR/SWR.

 

[MikeWh]

The better thing to have done would be to make the whole extension in zone 1/2. OK, you'd get zone 2 fares between Battersea and Elephant & Castle, but the developers interest in having zone 1 only fares to central London would be preserved and you wouldn't have the anomaly of Vauxhall being a zone 1/2 station within the new zone 1.

I wouldn't rule out this happening further down the line.

 

[bramling]

It would be interesting to know, once demand builds up, whether the extension is "cost neutral" to TfL - I.e. the additional fares revenue generated exceeds the net additional operating cost. In theory, a lower Zone 1 fare stimulates slightly more demand.

Plus it may attract usage from Battersea Park and Queenstown Rd stations - revenue that currently goes to GTR/SWR.

An interesting thought. I’d imagine a lot of the current Battersea Park and Queens Road usage would be people who travel to Victoria and then join LU there, so these journeys aren’t going to bring any revenue to TfL at all, but *would* perhaps have done if the extension was in zone 2.

I’d imagine the bulk of journeys will be new ones from Battersea Power Station, who with the lack of alternatives would have used the extension one way or other. Then there will perhaps be some abstraction from Stockwell in particular, and perhaps Clapham North, which is going to lose revenue.

I suppose if enough journeys are made then it could cover its costs, but whichever way one looks at it I think more revenue would have been made of the stations were in zone 2. If there were masses of alternative options from BPS then it might be different, but there aren’t, due largely to the river acting as a natural barrier.

 

[AlbertBeale]

An interesting thought. I’d imagine a lot of the current Battersea Park and Queens Road usage would be people who travel to Victoria and then join LU there, so these journeys aren’t going to bring any revenue to TfL at all, but *would* perhaps have done if the extension was in zone 2.

I’d imagine the bulk of journeys will be new ones from Battersea Power Station, who with the lack of alternatives would have used the extension one way or other. Then there will perhaps be some abstraction from Stockwell in particular, and perhaps Clapham North, which is going to lose revenue.

I suppose if enough journeys are made then it could cover its costs, but whichever way one looks at it I think more revenue would have been made of the stations were in zone 2. If there were masses of alternative options from BPS then it might be different, but there aren’t, due largely to the river acting as a natural barrier.

I'm not sure about there being many people currently travelling between Queenstown Road and Victoria....

 

[LeeLivery]

Signs have been updated at Waterloo and King’s Cross -> and probably everywhere else too, but those were the only two stations I used.

Image shows a Northern Line route map displayed at the entrance to the Northern Line platforms at Waterloo, showing that Nine Elms and Battersea Power Station have been added to the map.

The sign at Battersea PS shows Kennington - Oval (Charing Cross branch) as a limited service, while this one doesn't. This also shows Euston Sq and South Wimbledon OSI, while the BPS one doesn't. Odd.

 

[Cdd89]

Diagrams also updated on Northern line trains (or at least the carriage I was on today).

This map is very misleading because it implies that a journey from Oval to Kennington passes through Zone 1. I think I’d have attempted to box off the Battersea Power Station branch in the Zone 1 designation.

 

[AlterEgo]

This map is very misleading because it implies that a journey from Oval to Kennington passes through Zone 1. I think I’d have attempted to box off the Battersea Power Station branch in the Zone 1 designation.

Or even bend the line back on itself so it starts going left on the diagram and back into Zone 1.

 

[rebmcr]

Or even bend the line back on itself so it starts going left on the diagram and back into Zone 1.

Indeed.

 

[su31]

The sign at Battersea PS shows Kennington - Oval (Charing Cross branch) as a limited service, while this one doesn't. This also shows Euston Sq and South Wimbledon OSI, while the BPS one doesn't. Odd.

That’s because there isn’t an OSI at Battersea. It has cross London transfer status for NR paper tickets with the dagger symbol on.

 

[MikeWh]

That’s because there isn’t an OSI at Battersea. It has cross London transfer status for NR paper tickets with the dagger symbol on.

There absolutely is going to be OSIs between Power Station and Park/Queens Town Road.

 

[su31]

There absolutely is going to be OSIs between Power Station and Park/Queens Town Road.

I work on the Tube. Our documents do not indicate an OSI. You can’t have an OSI between a Zone 1 and a Zone 2 station.

 

[MikeWh]

I work on the Tube. Our documents do not indicate an OSI. You can’t have an OSI between a Zone 1 and a Zone 2 station.

Why not, there's one between a zone 4 and a zone 5 Station. Also check the alternative routes between Putney and Oxford Circus on the fare finder.

 

[LeeLivery]

That’s because there isn’t an OSI at Battersea. It has cross London transfer status for NR paper tickets with the dagger symbol on.

That's not what I meant - the diagram at Battersea PS shows different interchanges to the one above at Waterloo.

 

[su31]

Why not, there's one between a zone 4 and a zone 5 Station. Also check the alternative routes between Putney and Oxford Circus on the fare finder.

I see your point there Mike! But as far as I’m aware from reading our revenue updates, there’s not going to be one.

 

[Busaholic]

There absolutely is going to be OSIs between Power Station and Park/Queens Town Road.

''Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive'' as Walter Scott wrote two centuries ago! The deception is the nefarious agreement between TfL and the developers of the Battersea Power Station site, weakening further the already shaky integrity of the zonal fare system.

 

[Bald Rick]

The deception is the nefarious agreement between TfL and the developers of the Battersea Power Station site, weakening further the already shaky integrity of the zonal fare system.

But without that agreement, we wouldn’t have the NLE.

 

[zwk500]

The deception is the nefarious agreement between TfL and the developers of the Battersea Power Station site, weakening further the already shaky integrity of the zonal fare system.

There's nothing stopping TfL Reviewing the zones in future as actual usage provides clearer evidence than projections. As Bald Rick said, the deal got the line built, which is by far the biggest hurdle. Fiddling around with the zone boundaries is far less problematic.
There's also the point that by doing the deal with developers on this project, TfL has potentially shown itself to be reasonable and responsive, rather than autocratic and inflexible. This will be important for securing private funding going forward.

 

[bramling]

But without that agreement, we wouldn’t have the NLE.

Which might well not have been such a bad thing if the extra branch ends up proving an operational headache.

It already has done so in respect of the systems integration issues bolting it on to the now-surpassed signalling technology used for the Northern Line’s resignalling. You can also bet it’s going to prove challenging resourcing the extra mileage burden arising from the fleet size not being increased.

This extension came out of nowhere, essentially someone’s bright idea, that they were prepared to dip into their pockets and pay for. It certainly didn’t have same gestation process as something like the JLE which was a very long-held aspiration (albeit what was eventually built was rather different from the 1970s plans).

If we didn’t have Battersea I’m not sure we’d be missing it much.

 

[Ianno87]

Which might well not have been such a bad thing if the extra branch ends up providing an operational headache.

It already has done so in respect of the systems integration issues bolting it on to the now-surpassed signalling technology used for the Northern Line’s resignalling. You can also bet it’s going to prove challenging resourcing the extra mileage burden arising from the fleet size not being increased.

This extension came out of nowhere, essentially someone’s bright idea, that they were prepared to dip into their pockets and pay for. It certainly didn’t have same gestation process as something like the JLE which was a very long-held aspiration (albeit what was eventually built was rather different from the 1970s plans).

If we didn’t have Battersea I’m not sure we’d be missing it much.

Reading some of the Background, the NLE as we now know it dates back to around 2008/2009 as the only way of serving a high density of development (which it quite clearly is).

Of course, plans to regenerate the Power Station have been around for donkeys years (1980s).

The private funding idea seems to have been put forward by TfL/Boris.

 

[bramling]

Reading some of the Background, the NLE as we now know it dates back to around 2008/2009 as the only way of serving a high density of development (which it quite clearly is).

Yes that's my understanding. So if there was no NLE, the development at the power station site would likely have been less dense. Whether the rest of the Northern Line should be hamstrung for the foreseeable future in order to allow a property developer to shoehorn a few extra units into a derelict power station is of course a matter for debate!

The private funding idea seems to have been put forward by TfL/Boris.

Quite possibly. Certainly when the idea of Northern Line to Battersea was first floated it was taken with about the same level of seriousness as Central Line to Harlow. In this instance money certainly spoke.

 

[zwk500]

Yes that's my understanding. So if there was no NLE, the development at the power station site would likely have been less dense. Whether the rest of the Northern Line should be hamstrung for the foreseeable future in order to allow a property developer to shoehorn a few extra units into a derelict power station is of course a matter for debate!

London needs every house it can get. Supply is limited enough as it is. Will the proposed split of the Northern Line make a difference to the operational ease? I know Camden Town is, to put it mildly, a bit of a problem so maybe instead of restricting the development density it should have been a condition of development that Camden Town reached a certain stage first. But that would have requires extraordinarily joined-up thinking at City Hall.

 

[Wolfie]

London needs every house it can get. Supply is limited enough as it is. Will the proposed split of the Northern Line make a difference to the operational ease? I know Camden Town is, to put it mildly, a bit of a problem so maybe instead of restricting the development density it should have been a condition of development that Camden Town reached a certain stage first. But that would have requires extraordinarily joined-up thinking at City Hall.

Any attempt to impose any such condition would almost certainly lead to an appeal which a planning inspector would almost certainly support. Oh, and the "derelict power station" mentioned earlier is both a London landmark and a Grade 1 listed building....

 

[rebmcr]

So if there was no NLE, the development at the power station site would likely have been less dense. Whether the rest of the Northern Line should be hamstrung for the foreseeable future in order to allow a property developer to shoehorn a few extra units into a derelict power station is of course a matter for debate!

London needs every house it can get. Supply is limited enough as it is.

However, high-value developments seem to have a nasty habit of being treated like collectible baseball cards by investors who are happy to keep them empty, rather than take the tax liability of rental profits.