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Northern Line Battersea Extension - Opened September 20 2021

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DanNCL

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The new announcements on board the 1995 stock for the extension have been reported elsewhere as being voiced by Elinor Hamilton, post processed to make them sound as similar to the Celia announcements used on the rest of the line as was possible.
 
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The new announcements on board the 1995 stock for the extension have been reported elsewhere as being voiced by Elinor Hamilton, post processed to make them sound as similar to the Celia announcements used on the rest of the line as was possible.
They are most certainly not Elinor Hamilton. There is no way they can be Elinor Hamilton. They sound absolutely nothing like her. Even if they had been processed and modified i still do not think it could be her as there is zero similarity to her voice. I think that they are probably either Sarah Parnell or a new person who has not been used before.
 

trebor79

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They are most certainly not Elinor Hamilton. There is no way they can be Elinor Hamilton. They sound absolutely nothing like her. Even if they had been processed and modified i still do not think it could be her as there is zero similarity to her voice. I think that they are probably either Sarah Parnell or a new person who has not been used before.
In this era of "deep fakes" where the Queen can be made to say apparently ridiculous things (see channel 4 alternative Christmas Message), it's definitely doable.
 

XAM2175

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I don't have much knowledge of this sort of thing myself, but might some wheelchair users prefer/need to turn their wheelchair to face the buttons?
Wouldn’t you be closer to the buttons sitting sideways ? Facing them would mean leaning over.

The regulations already require lifts to have their controls on the side wall near-ish to the middle of the cabin for exactly this reason.
 

GodAtum

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I agree with Geoff, the line shouldn't be extended to Clapham because it would flood the trains with people at the start

 

Cdd89

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I agree with Geoff, the line shouldn't be extended to Clapham because it would flood the trains with people at the start

While I understand the operational realities of the Northern Line with the limitations at Camden Town, not extending just because it might be “too popular” is certainly an unusual view for a public transport network. Followed to the letter, the Piccadilly Line would not have been extended to terminate at Heathrow, and the Jubilee Line would not have been extended to call at West Ham at Stratford. It’s also not clear why most would not simply remain on board to Waterloo or Victoria which provide good Zone 1 connections; it would on the other hand be incredibly useful to those heading South or connecting onto the Overground.

But perhaps one solution (if it really would be overwhelmed!), would have been to extend to Clapham, and find some mechanism for charging a small additional fare, even to Travelcard holders or those who have capped, for the use of that section of line. This would easily fund the construction while limiting use until the NL capacity could be upgraded, and could fund those upgrades when the time came.
 

rebmcr

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While I understand the operational realities of the Northern Line with the limitations at Camden Town, not extending just because it might be “too popular” is certainly an unusual view for a public transport network. Followed to the letter, the Piccadilly Line would not have been extended to terminate at Heathrow, and the Jubilee Line would not have been extended to call at West Ham at Stratford. It’s also not clear why most would not simply remain on board to Waterloo or Victoria which provide good Zone 1 connections; it would on the other hand be incredibly useful to those heading South or connecting onto the Overground.

But perhaps one solution (if it really would be overwhelmed!), would have been to extend to Clapham, and find some mechanism for charging a small additional fare, even to Travelcard holders or those who have capped, for the use of that section of line. This would easily fund the construction while limiting use until the NL capacity could be upgraded, and could fund those upgrades when the time came.
Because different lines have different levels of crowding. It's not a blanket rule for everywhere, they take into account the entire Oyster database of how people tend to make their journeys, and model how different connections would feed into that.

That's why the Victoria line has never gone past Brixton, but the Bakerloo is/was planned for extension to Lewisham.
 

Bald Rick

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While I understand the operational realities of the Northern Line with the limitations at Camden Town, not extending just because it might be “too popular” is certainly an unusual view for a public transport network. Followed to the letter, the Piccadilly Line would not have been extended to terminate at Heathrow, and the Jubilee Line would not have been extended to call at West Ham at Stratford. It’s also not clear why most would not simply remain on board to Waterloo or Victoria which provide good Zone 1 connections; it would on the other hand be incredibly useful to those heading South or connecting onto the Overground.
I’m afraid your comparisons don’t work. In the case of both Heathrow and the Jubilee line, there was spare capacity on the existing line able to accommodate the forecast demand from the extensions.

In the case of extending the Northern to Clapham, there isn’t. I’ve seen the demand studies - essentially every train leaving Clapham Junction on the morning peak would be full, meaning the 2 new stations at Battersea would be useless, and passengers unable to board at E&C, Waterloo, etc.
 

berneyarms

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While I understand the operational realities of the Northern Line with the limitations at Camden Town, not extending just because it might be “too popular” is certainly an unusual view for a public transport network. Followed to the letter, the Piccadilly Line would not have been extended to terminate at Heathrow, and the Jubilee Line would not have been extended to call at West Ham at Stratford. It’s also not clear why most would not simply remain on board to Waterloo or Victoria which provide good Zone 1 connections; it would on the other hand be incredibly useful to those heading South or connecting onto the Overground.

But perhaps one solution (if it really would be overwhelmed!), would have been to extend to Clapham, and find some mechanism for charging a small additional fare, even to Travelcard holders or those who have capped, for the use of that section of line. This would easily fund the construction while limiting use until the NL capacity could be upgraded, and could fund those upgrades when the time came.
If I recall correctly, the view taken was that a Northern Line extension to Clapham Junction could happen post-Crossrail 2, which would hoover up a significant amount of those people wanting to go beyond Victoria and Waterloo, but not before, for precisely the capacity reasons outlined above.
 

Bald Rick

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If I recall correctly, the view taken was that a Northern Line extension to Clapham Junction could happen post-Crossrail 2, which would hoover up a significant amount of those people wanting to go beyond Victoria and Waterloo, but not before, for precisely the capacity reasons outlined above.

You recall correctly!
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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In the case of extending the Northern to Clapham, there isn’t. I’ve seen the demand studies - essentially every train leaving Clapham Junction on the morning peak would be full, meaning the 2 new stations at Battersea would be useless, and passengers unable to board at E&C, Waterloo, etc.
But not every train in the morning peak is full after leaving Waterloo - plenty more get on at Charing Cross. Clapham does not see more passengers than Waterloo so there would still be space in a similar way for passengers at Battersea and Nine Elms, and in the event of them being rammed beyond Kennington, not all trains are extended south of Kennington meaning there would be plenty of empty trains at Waterloo and Charing Cross still?

Battersea branch trains cannot physically serve E&C (or London Bridge)
 

Bald Rick

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But not every train in the morning peak is full after leaving Waterloo - plenty more get on at Charing Cross. Clapham does not see more passengers than Waterloo so there would still be space in a similar way for passengers at Battersea and Nine Elms, and in the event of them being rammed beyond Kennington, not all trains are extended south of Kennington meaning there would be plenty of empty trains at Waterloo and Charing Cross still?

Battersea branch trains cannot physically serve E&C (or London Bridge)

My mistake on E&C, sorry, I was relying on memory

But suggesting that there is spare capacity at Waterloo means that there must be spare capacity from Clapham Jn is a brave leap n logic. Waterloo, of course, has many more options for onward travel - Jubilee in both directions, Bakerloo and the drain, plus countless buses for a short trip to various locations in Central London, main line from Waterloo East, and of course walking. Passengers at Clapham Junction heading for Northern Line destinations have none of those, realistically.

As I said, I’ve seen the modelling, and it is very clear.
 

bramling

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My mistake on E&C, sorry, I was relying on memory

But suggesting that there is spare capacity at Waterloo means that there must be spare capacity from Clapham Jn is a brave leap n logic. Waterloo, of course, has many more options for onward travel - Jubilee in both directions, Bakerloo and the drain, plus countless buses for a short trip to various locations in Central London, main line from Waterloo East, and of course walking. Passengers at Clapham Junction heading for Northern Line destinations have none of those, realistically.

As I said, I’ve seen the modelling, and it is very clear.

Looking at how quickly trains are already filling up at Battersea, indeed to surprising levels at times, I’d definitely agree you wouldn’t want the trains turning up already heavily loaded.

I’m sure it would be possible to extend beyond Battersea to one or more “local” destinations, but you couldn’t take it to a really massive traffic generator.

There’s also the issue of Kennington interchange - it could seriously wreck the whole Northern Line if large numbers of people with to change routes at Kennington, especially with the Morden section already being historically very busy. The Victoria Line interchange at Stockwell is already a significant bottleneck at peak times.
 

Cdd89

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The utilisation of the Battersea Power Station OSIs may be instructive in answering how much use Clapham would have got.

But I’ve no reason to doubt that:
I’ve seen the modelling, and it is very clear.
…in which case rather than not building because it’s “too popular”, why not build and implement measures to control peak demand until capacity could be increased on the rest of the line?
 

Bald Rick

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The utilisation of the Battersea Power Station OSIs may be instructive in answering how much use Clapham would have got.

But I’ve no reason to doubt that:

…in which case rather than not building because it’s “too popular”, why not build and implement measures to control peak demand until capacity could be increased on the rest of the line?

Because the measures are building Crossrail 2, and that is a long, long way off.
 

MikeWh

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The utilisation of the Battersea Power Station OSIs may be instructive in answering how much use Clapham would have got.
Not really. If you're not on a train that's going to stop at Battersea Park or Queenstown Road anyway then those OSIs are not really attractive.
…in which case rather than not building because it’s “too popular”, why not build and implement measures to control peak demand until capacity could be increased on the rest of the line?
What sort of measures did you have in mind? I can't see increased fares working with the current PAYG model and I can't see TfL implimenting something bespoke for one station. Yes, TfL Rail charges more for Heathrow, but you are still capped by the zone 1-6 daily cap so it's not really an imposition for a lot of people.

Petrol stations have shown us what happens when too many people want to use a single service at the same time.
 

southern442

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Not really. If you're not on a train that's going to stop at Battersea Park or Queenstown Road anyway then those OSIs are not really attractive.
Not to mention it's a little bit of a walk, one that I was happy to do when it came up but equally one that I wouldn't want to do first thing in the morning or after a long day at work every single day!
 

ijmad

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So has anyone tried to ride the Kennington Loop in reverse yet, on the train from the extension that reverses North-South using it in the mornings?

I assume it would be fine to get carried as a passenger, given the rules on the loop, or is this a special move that has to be done with the train fully tipped out?
 

zwk500

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So has anyone tried to ride the Kennington Loop in reverse yet, on the train from the extension that reverses North-South using it in the mornings?

I assume it would be fine to get carried as a passenger, given the rules on the loop, or is this a special move that has to be done with the train fully tipped out?
Post #321, among others. Pattern seems to be that staff will tell you to get off, but it's hit and miss if they'll go any further and actually prevent you riding the loop.
 

rebmcr

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Post #321, among others. Pattern seems to be that staff will tell you to get off, but it's hit and miss if they'll go any further and actually prevent you riding the loop.
None of the previous discussion covers the reverse journey that ijmad is asking about.
 

ijmad

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Yeah indeed, I've ridden the loop several times in years past with no problems. I was wondering, now it's bi-directional, if it's possible to ride the other way!
 

bramling

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Yeah indeed, I've ridden the loop several times in years past with no problems. I was wondering, now it's bi-directional, if it's possible to ride the other way!

The official answer will depend on whether the relevant points have facing point locking. My belief is they wouldn’t have had before the layout changes in the area, so it would depend on whether this was installed as part of the Battersea-associated changes.

Having said that, with the relevant trains being “double ended”, and Kennington not being that well endowed in terms of station staff, who knows what happens in practice.
 

ijmad

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Well it's unlikely I'll be getting up early enough to try any time soon, but if any other rail enthusiasts are early birds, I suppose they can try their luck
 

su31

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So has anyone tried to ride the Kennington Loop in reverse yet, on the train from the extension that reverses North-South using it in the mornings?

I assume it would be fine to get carried as a passenger, given the rules on the loop, or is this a special move that has to be done with the train fully tipped out?
I'm pretty sure that the train is out of service, and the move takes place before start of traffic.
 

rebmcr

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I'm pretty sure that the train is out of service, and the move takes place before start of traffic.
The first trains to serve Battersea in the morning start there, carry passengers via Nine Elms to Kennington, then use the loop in the 'wrong' direction to resume passenger service from Kennington back to Battersea.
 

Dstock7080

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So has anyone tried to ride the Kennington Loop in reverse yet, on the train from the extension that reverses North-South using it in the mornings?

I assume it would be fine to get carried as a passenger, given the rules on the loop, or is this a special move that has to be done with the train fully tipped out?
The first trains to serve Battersea in the morning start there, carry passengers via Nine Elms to Kennington, then use the loop in the 'wrong' direction to resume passenger service from Kennington back to Battersea.
Kennington pfm.1 to pfm.2 via the loop marked in the timetable as “empty”
 
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Daniel

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Are the normal pfm.2 to pfm.1 movements also marked in the timetable as "empty"?
No, but only because they are a bit of a black hole. SB trains in the WTT show as finishing at Kennington Plf2, whereas Northbound trains show as starting from Kennington Plf1. There isn't therefore a listing for Kennington Loop.

Those early morning moves get around this by using notes: "ex Pfm 1 - 05:34 to Loop"
 
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