Northern Rail - A Suburban Service for Cities ?

[yorksrob]

It is probably a sensible bias; with temporarily limited resources it makes more sense to concentrate them on the most-used lines. It's not just Northern; Marston Vale services remain bustituted.

I would say that the lesser need for rural areas is already reflected in the sparser standard timetable.

That sparser timetable should be reduced in proportion with more frequent services elsewhere. There is no justification for a more swingeing range of cuts to these services - if anything the sparser underlying service should result in more caution when it comes to cutting things.

 

[30907]

I would say that the lesser need for rural areas is already reflected in the sparser standard timetable.

That sparser timetable should be reduced in proportion with more frequent services elsewhere. There is no justification for a more swingeing range of cuts to these services - if anything the sparser underlying service should result in more caution when it comes to cutting things.

The "City Suburban" stations of Baildon, Apperley Bridge and Kirkstall all appear to have 50% service too.

 

[quantinghome]

I would say that the lesser need for rural areas is already reflected in the sparser standard timetable.

That sparser timetable should be reduced in proportion with more frequent services elsewhere. There is no justification for a more swingeing range of cuts to these services - if anything the sparser underlying service should result in more caution when it comes to cutting things.

I believe we should continue to support rural rail services. But Northern's main job is to move large numbers of passengers into and around the urban areas of the North. I've used the Bentham line quite a few times (as a business traveller!) It goes through a lovely area but is sparsely used. Northern has to concentrate on where most of the people are. To suggest otherwise is to ignore the reality of passenger railway economics.

 

[yorksrob]

The "City Suburban" stations of Baildon, Apperley Bridge and Kirkstall all appear to have 50% service too.

The service is showing as hourly to about half past ten in the evening. This isn't bad in the scheme of things.

My own "city suburban" service of Normanton has had such a service for years pre covid anyway.

I believe we should continue to support rural rail services. But Northern's main job is to move large numbers of passengers into and around the urban areas of the North. I've used the Bentham line quite a few times (as a business traveller!) It goes through a lovely area but is sparsely used. Northern has to concentrate on where most of the people are. To suggest otherwise is to ignore the reality of passenger railway economics.

The Bentham line can be quiet at times, but this is not the case for the S&C in my experience. In normal times, the evening services are well enough used, which suggests that even in COVID times, a service chopped at six o'clock in the afternoon isn't justified.

 

[zwk500]

The Bentham line can be quiet at times, but this is not the case for the S&C in my experience. In normal times, the evening services are well enough used, which suggests that even in COVID times, a service chopped at six o'clock in the afternoon isn't justified.

There may be other operational constraints, such as any later services requiring an additional guard and driver, that mean some services cost more to operate than others. These might have changed given the overall reduction and therefore reallocation of resources. I don't know for sure either way, though. If there is an upsurge in demand the Northern can always bid to run later services as part of the STP process.

 

[yorksrob]

There may be other operational constraints, such as any later services requiring an additional guard and driver, that mean some services cost more to operate than others. These might have changed given the overall reduction and therefore reallocation of resources. I don't know for sure either way, though. If there is an upsurge in demand the Northern can always bid to run later services as part of the STP process.

I would certainly hope that they would apply to reinstate the late evening S&C service from Carlisle in time for the April relaxation.

I'm not convinced that they will though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Bentham line can be quiet at times, but this is not the case for the S&C in my experience. In normal times, the evening services are well enough used, which suggests that even in COVID times, a service chopped at six o'clock in the afternoon isn't justified.

That depends on why people are travelling. The evening economy isn't a thing at the moment (e.g. a meal after work). Of course there are plenty of non-9 to 5 jobs, but a relatively large number of them at the moment are furloughed.

 

[yorksrob]

That depends on why people are travelling. The evening economy isn't a thing at the moment (e.g. a meal after work). Of course there are plenty of non-9 to 5 jobs, but a relatively large number of them at the moment are furloughed.

This is true for now, but with non essential retail potentially opening in April, someone from one of the intermediate settlements could well need the later trains to get back from Leeds or Gateshead for example.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is true for now, but with non essential retail potentially opening in April, someone from one of the intermediate settlements could well need the later trains to get back from Leeds or Gateshead for example.

I think 12th April will need a further step up. I'd probably expect the Marston Vale to get its single-unit service back by then.

 

[peters]

Has it actually been confirmed that the extra trains are running in May? Their being in the open data as of today doesn't confirm as much, especially if nobody has seen a PDF timetable.

Meeting notes from TfGM shared in another thread confirmed that a reduced timetable will operate from 17th May with similar service levels to mid December on most routes but with some routes getting fewer trains than in December.

I notice on RTT there's some ECS movements on the Mid-Cheshire line today, which consist of a single class 150 shuttling back and forth, so presumably that relates to crew training.

 

[30907]

I would certainly hope that they would apply to reinstate the late evening S&C service from Carlisle in time for the April relaxation.

I'm not convinced that they will though.

It was pretty empty on the only occasion I used it (July 2018), so I would be surprised. The 18xx from each end and perhaps the evening Ribblehead, yes.

 

[yorksrob]

It was pretty empty on the only occasion I used it (July 2018), so I would be surprised. The 18xx from each end and perhaps the evening Ribblehead, yes.

At Settle, the last Carlisle service gets there not long before the Ribblehead one. On the occasions I've caught the Carlisle one, it's generally been quite busy for a late evening service, more so than the Ribblehead terminator (which I often catch).

After lockdown one, the late service was reinstated before the 18:xx (I'm not even sure that one came back). An option might be to reinstate the late service and have it pick up the Ribblehead stop in place of the terminator. That would replace three trains from the standard timetable with one.

 

[Carlisle]

Would TPE be better at running the SCR trains and the other service from Leeds to Morecombe/Heysham perhaps?

Considering their own abysmal cancellation record over the last 2 years, probably not.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

Intrigued by this - how did you have seat reservations? I thought Northern didn’t do them?

I was with a group of about 25-30 people and they do reserve for groups, or they did then, it must have been 2 years ago I think. We also had a guide from the Friends of the Line, he was annoyed too.

 

[daodao]

Intrigued by this - how did you have seat reservations? I thought Northern didn’t do them?

Table 42 of the National Rail timetable indicates that most trains on the S&C and little NW lines are reservable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Table 42 of the National Rail timetable indicates that most trains on the S&C and little NW lines are reservable.

Most Northern trains are in as reservable, not so you can actually reserve a seat but so you can do "counted places" Advances. They really could do with separating that, as it means the diamond in the timetable is (and has been for a number of years) very misleading.

Similarly almost all LNR trains have the diamond but it's purely Advances. LM in their early days experimented with actual reservations, but soon dropped it because the commuters got rather shirty.

 

[yorksrob]

I see also that the dreadful lockdown timetable for the Whitby line is in place again. I wonder if this will still be stinking up the railway until the May timetable change.

Having lockdown timetables almost two months after lockdown has ended really is unacceptable.

 

[swissrailpassion]

They are counting passenger numbers carefully. In the evenings loadings are low. I was in Leeds earlier this week and the city was virtually deserted at 7pm. People will return but only after 17 May. The summer will be interesting and I expect coastal resorts and countryside to be very busy indeed. Will the railway be ready?

 

[yorksrob]

They are counting passenger numbers carefully. In the evenings loadings are low. I was in Leeds earlier this week and the city was virtually deserted at 7pm. People will return but only after 17 May. The summer will be interesting and I expect coastal resorts and countryside to be very busy indeed. Will the railway be ready?

I should imagine that passenger loadings West of Skipton in the evenings are low because there are barely any trains.

Outdoor hospitality is supposed to be happenning in April according to the roadmap, so they might do well to bear this in mind.

 

[Adam0984]

Hull has spare units and crew ready to do sweeper services if need be upto Bridlington
The 1049 Leeds to Carlisle and 1450 back has been strengthen last week

 

[northernchris]

The 1049 Leeds to Carlisle and 1450 back has been strengthen last week

Was back to 2 carriages again today and not listed as a short form on Journey Check. Northern do seem to be struggling with unit availability lately which doesn't inspire much confidence for when the uplift occurs in May

 

[yorksrob]

Prior to Covid, we were worried that the withdrawal of pacers would cause capacity issues.

I suppose at least they have a load of 153's to attach to everything.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Was back to 2 carriages again today and not listed as a short form on Journey Check. Northern do seem to be struggling with unit availability lately which doesn't inspire much confidence for when the uplift occurs in May

Northern have run nowhere near a full service since they got rid of pacers. I would not be surprised if they could not run a full (pre-Covid) service even if they didn't have "staffing difficulties".

 

[yorksrob]

Northern have run nowhere near a full service since they got rid of pacers. I would not be surprised if they could not run a full (pre-Covid) service even if they didn't have "staffing difficulties".

Frankly I wouldn't be surprised.

I would be enraged if west of Skipton continues to get the crappy end of the stick.

 

[Llandudno]

No doubt they will be citing lack of demand due to Covid as an excuse to stall the reinstatement of services in May.

Bring back the Pacers, as long as though they are bolted on to 150s!

 

[Starmill]

Prior to Covid, we were worried that the withdrawal of pacers would cause capacity issues.

I suppose at least they have a load of 153's to attach to everything.

I think that the current dispensation for Northern to use 153s expires at the end of the last day of May. Of course it may be extended.

 

[yorksrob]

I think that the current dispensation for Northern to use 153s expires at the end of the last day of May. Of course it may be extended.

Indeed.

I think it would make sense for them to do so prior to summer.

Other than the bog (which can be linked to another unit) and the dodgy vestibule (there's another one), what is there actually stopping them being declared useable with other units in perpetuity.

 

[northernchris]

Northern have run nowhere near a full service since they got rid of pacers. I would not be surprised if they could not run a full (pre-Covid) service even if they didn't have "staffing difficulties".

Yes, I wouldn't like to think what the situation would be had a full timetable been in operation without the pacers

 

[Watershed]

I think that the current dispensation for Northern to use 153s expires at the end of the last day of May. Of course it may be extended.

There are 3 153s diagrammed from May. That indicates a reasonable level of expectation that the dispensation will be extended.

Those units are all coupled to 158s though, so the cost of not renewing the dispensation is "merely" a loss of capacity.

There are also the Barton services, which will likely remain 153 operated for a while yet (although they will be "operated" by EMR from the May TT change).

 

[Greybeard33]

Indeed.

I think it would make sense for them to do so prior to summer.

Other than the bog (which can be linked to another unit) and the dodgy vestibule (there's another one), what is there actually stopping them being declared useable with other units in perpetuity.

Apart from the toilet, 153 PRM mods would be similar to those carried out on the TfW 153s or Northern 155s, mainly to aid passengers with impaired eyesight or hearing. Things like a new PIS, door sounders, coloured handrails, contrasting interior colour scheme, maybe new door buttons. Although not a PRM issue, I guess a retention tank would be needed for the non-PRM toilet. Otherwise the toilet could be removed to provide more seating or luggage space, with the advantage that the unit could then be used solo on short routes where a toilet is unnecessary.

Not an overnight job, and best combined with a full interior refurb.