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Northern Unit Refurbishments

221101 Voyager

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323234 went into Wolverton Works today without a hitch.

However... The same cannot be said for 323236 going out, as it appeared to have broken down as it sat in the sidings on the mainline, it was routed to leave, then suddenly the points were swapped back and it didn't leave, then the headlights went on and off a few times, maybe they tried restarting it, then a few mins later, I saw the shunter came back out again to drag the 323 back into the works.

So on the next move from Wolverton to Allerton, there may be a 6 car consist! ;)

Photos of both unit moves below for those interested! ;)
 
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Jamesrob637

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323s seem to be breaking down nearly as much as 319s which is concerning given Northern are meant to be acquiring more of them in the next couple of years! 331s have settled down a little now, though probably still too many failures than many would like. At least the yaw damper issue is being rectified and they're returning to service in time for the school summer holidays.
 

LOL The Irony

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323s seem to be breaking down nearly as much as 319s which is concerning given Northern are meant to be acquiring more of them in the next couple of years!
Well Arriva did decide to move their maintenance from the famed Longsight to Allerton and people on this forum predicted their reliability would drop. Looks like they were proven correct.
 

py_megapixel

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The three car ones have kept their old seats. But have new cloth.
All 323s are 3 car. You are correct that they have kept their original seats, though the layout has changed to accommodate the PRM toilet, to allow more airline seats, and to fit seats where the luggage racks were on the units that were originally built specifically to serve the Airport.

323s seem to be breaking down nearly as much as 319s which is concerning given Northern are meant to be acquiring more of them in the next couple of years!
If that's true then it's a real shame. At one point they were considered extremely reliable.
Sadly they're really starting to show their age. I have always had a soft spot for them and would be a little sad to see them replaced, but ultimately they will have to go.
 

IanXC

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Well Arriva did decide to move their maintenance from the famed Longsight to Allerton and people on this forum predicted their reliability would drop. Looks like they were proven correct.

Well Arriva didn't have a choice of having 323s as the ROSCO wanted to offer them all to West Midlands Trains. Alstom successfully bid for other work for Longsight, leaving no capacity for 323s when WMT didn't want them...
 

skyhigh

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All 323s are 3 car. You are correct that they have kept their original seats, though the layout has changed to accommodate the PRM toilet, to allow more airline seats, and to fit seats where the luggage racks were on the units that were originally built specifically to serve the Airport.
I think he's referring to the 3 car 158s.
 

diligentdave

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I beg to differ on many of the comments here. The units were pushed back in to service with a multitude of deficiencies after their 'improvement' works. From missing panels to poorly affixed panels, missing door stops, thin paint application to name but three. PRM requirements dictated entire replacement of the doorway grab rails which are the area many have alluded to as being one of the most obvious poorly fabricated items with potential for becoming caught up on. It genuinely disapoints me that if it is correct the units were inspected and signed off as acceptable the delegated person from Northern apparently didn't know the unit well enough to know what is correct as I can categorically state the units returned from 'improvement' works with Gemini with issues which weren't there previously
"The units were pushed back in to service with a multitude of deficiencies after their 'improvement' works. From missing panels to poorly affixed panels, missing door stops, thin paint application to name but three."
"I can categorically state the units returned from 'improvement' works with Gemini with issues which weren't there previously".
" PRM requirements dictated entire replacement of the doorway grab rails"

Oh, and you know this information how? Was you involved in the works? Do you know what the actual scope of works was for these unit?

Please, if you are so learned about these things feel free to PM me.
 

py_megapixel

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" PRM requirements dictated entire replacement of the doorway grab rails"
That bit, at least, does not require any kind of industry knowledge to be aware of because it is, frankly, fairly clear to anyone who spends a few seconds looking at photos of the old and new spec. The grab rails after PRM mods are round rather than flat, and are of a T-shaped design, unlike the old ones which were an L-shape. And crucially - they were properly terminated; now they're not.

thin paint application
This is certainly the case as well. There are far more exposed sections where the paint has been scraped off than there used to be - and let's not forget this work is, depending on unit, a year or less old.

The positioning of the TFX displays have all been done with PRMTSI regulations in mind so are in the correct positions.
The positioning being technically PRM-compliant doesn't mean it isn't also poorly thought out for other reasons.

So yes - there are definitely issues that weren't present before the mods, but are present after.
 
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Harvey B

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I think I saw a couple of 153's out in service a couple of weeks back.

Does anyone know if there's any plans for them to receive PRM Mods and Refurbishments (Similar to TfW) or will they be going Leaving Northern?
 

py_megapixel

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I think I saw a couple of 153's out in service a couple of weeks back.

Does anyone know if there's any plans for them to receive PRM Mods and Refurbishments (Similar to TfW) or will they be going Leaving Northern?
Last I heard the 153s are going once enough 156s from the East Midlands are available to displace them.
 

Harvey B

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Last I heard the 153s are going once enough 156s from the East Midlands are available to displace them.
I'm very surprised that they're still around, I would have though that they would have gone when the Pacers went at the back end of last year
 

507021

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I'm very surprised that they're still around, I would have though that they would have gone when the Pacers went at the back end of last year

Northern aren't in a position to send them all of them off lease until they've received their additional 156s from EMR.
 

43102EMR

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Northern aren't in a position to send them all of them off lease until they've received their additional 156s from EMR.
But there were plans to release them using the stock prior to the 156 lease being taken up no?
 

yorksrob

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I rode 2 158s in the Newcastle area earlier this week. They both had ironing board seating. This may well have been mentioned here before, but I was expecting better from 158s as they of course never had ironing board seating when new.

Yes, a result of probably the most ill conceived refurbishment programme in history.
 

Harvey B

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But there were plans to release them using the stock prior to the 156 lease being taken up no?
I'm not an expert on this but seems like Northern have been making up stuff as they go along. One Minute, they say they're not keeping the 323's and instead letting them go. The next, they decide to refurbish them. I think there were rumours back in late 2019/Early 2020 of the 153's staying and getting PRM Mods & being refurbed, but it seems like they went silent on that.

Now There's Rumours of the 153's going when the new 156's come from East Midlands. I Honestly wouldn't be surprised if plans change again and they decide to refurbish them
 

LowLevel

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You could argue that part of it has already happened - the 156s in question are now leased from Angel to NT, and then sub-leased from NT to EM aren't they?
Porterbrook I believe. The only Angel 156s at EMR are 470/473/497/498 which aren't part of the deal.
 

skyhigh

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I'm not an expert on this but seems like Northern have been making up stuff as they go along. One Minute, they say they're not keeping the 323's and instead letting them go. The next, they decide to refurbish them. I think there were rumours back in late 2019/Early 2020 of the 153's staying and getting PRM Mods & being refurbed, but it seems like they went silent on that.

Now There's Rumours of the 153's going when the new 156's come from East Midlands. I Honestly wouldn't be surprised if plans change again and they decide to refurbish them
Situations change. At first, Northern weren't offered 323s as the owner thought they'd get a better deal elsewhere. As that didn't happen, the owner then came back with a better deal and offered to swap them for the 319s that Northern had taken instead.

The 153s are 100% going, no question of that. They'll all be gone by the end of the year.
 

Roger B

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Situations change. At first, Northern weren't offered 323s as the owner thought they'd get a better deal elsewhere. As that didn't happen, the owner then came back with a better deal and offered to swap them for the 319s that Northern had taken instead.

The 153s are 100% going, no question of that. They'll all be gone by the end of the year.
Perhaps some of Northern's 153s will become some of additional 153s TfW will be getting per Jan Chaudhry-van der Velde interview with Rail Business UK?

Welsh rolling stock strategy evolves as three-phase post-pandemic recovery envisaged

UK: TfW Rail has again revised its fleet strategy as it seeks to ensure passenger services can be improved despite the financial constraints caused by Covid-19, Managing Director Jan Chaudhry-van der Velde tells Rail Business UK.
www.railwaygazette.com
www.railwaygazette.com
TfW’s fleet of 12 Class 170 DMUs, transferred from Greater Anglia in 2019-20, will now be sub-leased to East Midlands Railway until the end of that operator’s contract in what is expected to be a permanent move. Their release is being made possible by the acquisition of additional Mk IV loco-hauled sets from Arriva’s Grand Central business, changes in the deployment plan for the new CAF Class 197 fleet, and the purchase of eight Class 153 single-car DMUs which are to be refurbished with full TSI PRM accessibility modifications for use on the Swansea – Shrewsbury Heart of Wales line. Meanwhile, the incoming Class 197s will be used on routes in west Wales previously expected to be covered by the Class 170 sets.
 

ic31420

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It's probably been covered ad infinitum but why are the 153s suddenly hitlisted? I accept they're not prm compliant but why not mod them or return them to 155 formations. Surely we still have a dmu shortage.
 

Neptune

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Returning them to 155’s is a strange obsession of some and has been covered many times. It is a totally pointless expense reversing work done 30 years ago for a lifespan of not much.

TfW have done the right thing. Fully PRMing some units and giving other units PRM mods without the disabled toilet enabling them to work with units with a PRM toilet.

Scotrail have acquired some for the large leisure market on rural routes.

Northern have acquired replacement’s in the form of 156’s with the net result of more capacity.
 

diligentdave

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That bit, at least, does not require any kind of industry knowledge to be aware of because it is, frankly, fairly clear to anyone who spends a few seconds looking at photos of the old and new spec. The grab rails after PRM mods are round rather than flat, and are of a T-shaped design, unlike the old ones which were an L-shape. And crucially - they were properly terminated; now they're not.


This is certainly the case as well. There are far more exposed sections where the paint has been scraped off than there used to be - and let's not forget this work is, depending on unit, a year or less old.


The positioning being technically PRM-compliant doesn't mean it isn't also poorly thought out for other reasons.

So yes - there are definitely issues that weren't present before the mods, but are present after.
Considering that nothing was done to the grab rails apart from being removed during painting, powder coated and refitted, I reckon your observations are at least 6 to 8 years out of date (the time between C6 overhauls). Or are you basing your observations on the difference between WMT 323's and Northern 323's?

Exposed sections due to paint being scraped off. Hmmm. Let me see. Wear and tear or vandalism occurs on trains. Obviously. That doesn't mean that the paint has been thinly applied.

The positioning of the PIS screens, well, that's where they are, signed off by everyone as compliant. So if that's classed as an "issue" then everything else is fine.
 

ic31420

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Returning them to 155’s is a strange obsession of some and has been covered many times. It is a totally pointless expense reversing work done 30 years ago for a lifespan of not much.

TfW have done the right thing. Fully PRMing some units and giving other units PRM mods without the disabled toilet enabling them to work with units with a PRM toilet.
Thanks when I said return them to 155s that was teh way I envisaged, maybe with the coupler changed to a more permanent type.
 

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