Northern withdraws some CAF trains due to yaw bracket failures

[superkev]

Interesting to read about this issue. Here in the Netherlands, I've not heard about this particular issue being a problem with our CAF Civity fleet, but it seems like exactly this mounting point has been changed between the first series (118 units) and the second series (another 88 units). My best guess is that it might have been spotted as a potential weak place and has been changed.
The upper unit is one of the first series, and the lower unit is a new one from the second batch, from which the first train was delivered about a year ago.


View attachment 94126

Picture via Facebook

Looks a completely different design. Also looks to be an outside frame bogie.
K

 

[Jamesrob637]

Didn't seem to affect Hazel Grove services yesterday from what I saw. Maybe Northern can still run most 331s as 6-car with the reduced timetable.

 

[superkev]

Didn't seem to affect Hazel Grove services yesterday from what I saw. Maybe Northern can still run most 331s as 6-car with the reduced timetable.

I'm not sure any 331s have been withdrawn, just 195s. K

 

[Ribbleman]

7 of the 22 sets withdrawn yesterday are Class 331. Northern will be bringing some Class 319 out of storage to cover.

 

[LOL The Irony]

7 of the 22 sets withdrawn yesterday are Class 331. Northern will be bringing some Class 319 out of storage to cover.

This isn't looking good. If all the Civitys need withdrawing, it's going to be emergency timetables and cancellations for months.

 

[coppercapped]

If you look into procurement ( especially govt ) you'll find stories of this everywhere - one of the most high profile is probably the aircraft carriers. Contempt for customers goes all the way up...

This is a very partial interpretation.

Reliability in a product is a result of long production runs and a large enough body of people who have the knowledge and experience to be able to use the equipment effectively.

Ships, especially capital ships such as aircraft carriers and submarines, are built in penny numbers and then a couple of decades go by before any more are built. Each ship is essentially a prototype and by the time the next generation comes along the designers of the previous one have retired.

It's the same problem as the stop and start railway electrification programmes in this country. It's not contempt - it's the nature of the beast.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Looking back at B.R. days, there was a team of engineers at the Research Centre, Derby working to improve ride quality and engineering performance. The effects of tuning the design could be monitored by applying the revised design to a few vehicles which were then used over a period of months in everyday service - remember those white plastic plates showing the experiment number with a Derby contact phone number?

It's difficult to believe that current stock has had the same level of development. The only time I have travelled in a Northern CAF unit it seemed that, every time we passed over a crossing or rail joint, someone hit the underside of my seat with a 7lb lump hammer....

In the days of Trainload Freight, the builders of the Class 60s were only paid for each loco after it had shown itself to be capable of performing in accordance with the spec.. The self styled 'Captain Deltic' said that this policy was un-necessary and would bankrupt the British loco industry, but I don't see why the expectations of reliability for new trains should be any different from any other mechanical or electrical product.

 

[popeter45]

This isn't looking good. If all the Civitys need withdrawing, it's going to be emergency timetables and cancellations for months.

if this causes a DMU/EMU shortage whats the legality of the old backup method of loco hauled mark 2/3's post PRM?

 

[CBlue]

if this causes a DMU/EMU shortage whats the legality of the old backup method of loco hauled mark 2/3's post PRM?

Assuming there are enough to go around - and who is crewing and driving these given restrictions on training?

 

[craigybagel]

I'm asking because I don't know - do any of the CAF products in other countries spend much of their time running at more than 75mph or thereabouts? The stresses get significant as the forces on the bogies increase and it may be that CAF's experience in this area is limited.

In Ireland, the NIR sets which are so often praised hit their 90mph top speed fairly regularly, and I've never heard of any issues there.

South of the border, the loco hauled MKIV sets on the Dublin - Cork route have had a pretty firm ride from day one, but to be fair even the much vaunted MKIIIs they replaced had a pretty awful ride on that route as well. They spend most of the trip north of 75mph, with speeds as high as 100mph in places.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Indeed, previously TfL purchased all its stock from Bombardier. Following the 345s and particularly the 710s they have ordered from other manufacturers, such as CAF for the DLR and Siemens for the NTfL. I would imagine CAF may have been chosen by TfL (and Northern) due to price.

Part of the reason Bombardier lost the TL 700s and the TfL tube orders was that Siemens could offer better financing than Bombardier.
That's because Bombardier was struggling commercially and could not borrow capital as cheaply as Siemens, so it was reflected in the price.
That may change now they are part of Alstom (though Alstom has also its financial problems).

One 331 was built at Newport to prove it can build EMUs, some 195s were built at Newport.

"Built in Newport" is not really the term, assembled would be a better one.
All the components come from Spain, just as they would if assembled at a Spanish factory.
There might be local assembly problems, but if it is a design fault it will affect the whole fleet, regardless of where it was assembled.

 

[Llama]

It's difficult to believe that current stock has had the same level of development. The only time I have travelled in a Northern CAF unit it seemed that, every time we passed over a crossing or rail joint, someone hit the underside of my seat with a 7lb lump hammer....

I've not driven a 195 or 331 with deflated secondary suspension but I'm not sure how the ride could possibly be much firmer.

 

[DustyBin]

Looking back at B.R. days, there was a team of engineers at the Research Centre, Derby working to improve ride quality and engineering performance. The effects of tuning the design could be monitored by applying the revised design to a few vehicles which were then used over a period of months in everyday service - remember those white plastic plates showing the experiment number with a Derby contact phone number?

It's difficult to believe that current stock has had the same level of development. The only time I have travelled in a Northern CAF unit it seemed that, every time we passed over a crossing or rail joint, someone hit the underside of my seat with a 7lb lump hammer....

In the days of Trainload Freight, the builders of the Class 60s were only paid for each loco after it had shown itself to be capable of performing in accordance with the spec.. The self styled 'Captain Deltic' said that this policy was un-necessary and would bankrupt the British loco industry, but I don't see why the expectations of reliability for new trains should be any different from any other mechanical or electrical product.

I agree with @Bletchleyite that the 158s are superb riding units, but I personally think the 465s (and 466s) are just as good if not better. The way they glide over rough track is amazing. You hear them clattering over joints, points etc. (Lewisham springs to mind!) but the ride remains completely unaffected. B.R. definitely got it right in regard to ride quality, eventually anyway.

 

[365 Networker]

This isn't looking good. If all the Civitys need withdrawing, it's going to be emergency timetables and cancellations for months.

I suspect this would not be very popular, but there are 37 stored pacer units which could be brought back to cover for CAF units being repaired/modified.

 

[RailWonderer]

Which sections do the 195s ride badly? Because of covid and not being my part of the country I've only done a few of them, Manchester - Sheffield was mostly fine, and so was Victoria - Leeds mostly. The small bins located on the floor was the only 'design fail' I saw while on them (and the window alignment is not great).

I agree with @Bletchleyite that the 158s are superb riding units, but I personally think the 465s (and 466s) are just as good if not better. The way they glide over rough track is amazing. You hear them clattering over joints, points etc. (Lewisham springs to mind!) but the ride remains completely unaffected. B.R. definitely got it right in regard to ride quality, eventually anyway.

Funny you mention the networkers because that's why people liked the class 365s on the Cambridge cruisers as opposed to the 387s that ride stiff and throw you about on that route.

 

[skyhigh]

I suspect this would not be very popular, but there are 37 stored pacer units which could be brought back to cover for CAF units being repaired/modified.

37? Are you including preserved units in that total? They'll have had parts such as GSMR and OTMR removed which means they'll be unfit to run on the mainline without work.

3 went for scrap this week, so if there was any remote possibility they might be needed I doubt that would have happened.

 

[365 Networker]

37? Are you including preserved units in that total? They'll have had parts such as GSMR and OTMR removed which means they'll be unfit to run on the mainline without work.

No, I wasn't including the preserved units in that as some may have had seating layouts changed or as you said - had GSMR and OTMR removed.
There are 27 142s stored, 4 143s stored and 6 144s stored.

 

[py_megapixel]

Just imagine the response from the public - and the politicians who campaigned extensively to get rid of them - if Pacers came back in, even for just a few weeks.
The irony of the trains ordered so that the North can finally see the back of the falling apart bus-trains being withdrawn because a bit of them has fallen apart would not go unnoticed by the media.

 

[dgl]

Well we still have 442's and MK4's if the they needed something in a hurry, anyone got some 33's and 73's they can borrow

 

[Jamesrob637]

Just imagine the response from the public - and the politicians who campaigned extensively to get rid of them - if Pacers came back in, even for just a few weeks.
The irony of the trains ordered so that the North can finally see the back of the falling apart bus-trains being withdrawn because a bit of them has fallen apart would not go unnoticed by the media.

They didn't have so much of a laughable name though, when they were just strengthening services. Don't forget Pacer has not run solo (or without a PRM unit) in passenger traffic since 31/12/2019.

 

[py_megapixel]

They didn't have so much of a laughable name though, when they were just strengthening services. Don't forget Pacer has not run solo (or without a PRM unit) in passenger traffic since 31/12/2019.

But I do remember media coverage of the fact they were gone, with the tone very much being "good riddance"

 

[southern442]

I agree with @Bletchleyite that the 158s are superb riding units, but I personally think the 465s (and 466s) are just as good if not better. The way they glide over rough track is amazing. You hear them clattering over joints, points etc. (Lewisham springs to mind!) but the ride remains completely unaffected. B.R. definitely got it right in regard to ride quality, eventually anyway.

I was going around the southeastern suburban network the other day, and noticed that there was a world of difference between 465s and 376s. Although it was especially unusual as I find 377s and some other electrostars to have quite a good ride quality.

 

[coppercapped]

SNIP

Funny you mention the networkers because that's why people liked the class 365s on the Cambridge cruisers as opposed to the 387s that ride stiff and throw you about on that route.

I was going around the southeastern suburban network the other day, and noticed that there was a world of difference between 465s and 376s. Although it was especially unusual as I find 377s and some other electrostars to have quite a good ride quality.

That's odd, because they all use the same basic bogie design — the BR Series 3. This was trialled on one unit of the Southern's PEP stock and first used in production under the Class 313.

(The Class 158's bogie was a later development — the Series 4)

 

[superkev]

Temporarly removing the yaw dampers with a possible speed restriction would seem a possible solution. The Yaw dampers are there predominantly to stop the bogies hunting.
For interest the original 1950s Dmus used to hunt terribly until they were modified on there mid live refurb in the 1970s.
I remember riding down the Calder valley on a Class 110 swaying from side to side I'm my seat.
K

 

[43096]

No, I wasn't including the preserved units in that as some may have had seating layouts changed or as you said - had GSMR and OTMR removed.
There are 27 142s stored, 4 143s stored and 6 144s stored.

Go on then, give us the unit numbers so we can fact check.

 

[Bevan Price]

It's possible to include quality criteria in a public tender, provided the basis on which quality and price are scored and weighted is made clear.

Prediction of metal fatigue is still not an exact science. Even tiny differences in composition of metals/alloys can affect behaviour.

 

[365 Networker]

Go on then, give us the unit numbers so we can fact check.

From Wikipedia:-
142 - 142003, 142004, 142007, 142011, 142013–014, 142018, 142023, 142032, 142035, 142041, 142047, 142051, 142056, 142058, 142061, 142065, 142068, 142070–071, 142078, 142087, 142089–090, 142094-142095

143 - 143603, 143617-619

144 - 144002, 144005, 144012, 144015, 144020-144021

 

[bengley]

Wikipedia

 

[Harvey B]

7 of the 22 sets withdrawn yesterday are Class 331. Northern will be bringing some Class 319 out of storage to cover.

Have any 331s on the leeds side been lost to this yet?

 

[skyhigh]

There are 27 142s stored, 4 143s stored and 6 144s stored.

I would count anything that's at Eastleigh or Wensleydale as past return without expense. 143s aren't viable as crew and fitters aren't trained on them.

From Wikipedia:-
142 - 142003, 142004, 142007, 142011, 142013–014, 142018, 142023, 142032, 142035, 142041, 142047, 142051, 142056, 142058, 142061, 142065, 142068, 142070–071, 142078, 142087, 142089–090, 142094-142095

143 - 143603, 143617-619

144 - 144002, 144005, 144012, 144015, 144020-144021

That list is pretty useless- it includes units now scrapped, owned by 3rd parties, 'preserved' and parts donors.