Norwood Junction - 'non-stopping' trains picking up passengers

[Railcar]

This thread refers to Norwood Junction Platform 3, the Up Fast.
Of late, I have witnessed instances of Southern services which are announced as 'Stand clear. The next train does not stop at this platform', pulling into the platform and taking on passengers (to London Bridge, non-stop). The same message is shown on the platform display, so it is not just a glitch in the announcement system. I've seen it happen several times, it is not a 'one-off'.

As the driver has obviously been instructed to stop, why are passengers waiting on Platform 3 being given the wrong information?

 

[heart-of-wessex]

Set down or staff reasons? Is Norwood used for Selhurst based crews? Used to happen some early mornings at Selhurst IIRC for a crew change stopping on the fast unadvertised yet the doors released at people got off

 

[AlterEgo]

Isn't this a set down only stop for some services?

 

[Peregrine 4903]

At the minute at weekends during May, London Victoria - East Croydon is shut meaning all Southern Long distance services are diverting to London Bridge. Theyt all have 1 minute crew stops at Norwood Junction, with the exception of the East Grinstead trains having 1 minute dwells for passenger.

I don't know, but I suspect what is happening is the driver or station staff are just deciding to let people on anyway, as it won't make a difference to journey time and while trains are getting busier, I suspect none of them are full.

 

[louis97]

During booked diversions to London Bridge during engineering works a number of trains per hour have staff stops at Norwood Junction. These stops are not advertised to the passenger and not all of them stop, however it is often the case that on platform 3 they will stop and release the doors. Up trains on platform 3 don't require dispatch by staff, so releasing the doors isn't a problem. In the opposite direction, its a different story as certain platforms in the down direction require dispatch by staff.

 

[Horizon22]

Any sort of general time? I'm aware they have set down services only, and the CIS can be configured properly at the station so it doesn't show as calling AND also doesn't show it running fast, but it's quite difficult as you have to somewhat 'trick' the system.

Either that or, as mentioned its a crew pick-up for the weekend diversions.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Any sort of general time? I'm aware they have set down services only, and the CIS can be configured properly at the station so it doesn't show as calling AND also doesn't show it running fast, but it's quite difficult as you have to somewhat 'trick' the system.

Either that or, as mentioned its a crew pick-up.

Its services stopping for crew stops, not set down services, due to engineering works at Victoria and services diverting into London Bridge.

 

[Railcar]

If these are crew stops, is there a crew room at Norwood Junction? Or do crews come and go from a crew room at the Selhurst depot? If they do, is there a permitted walkway on railway land, or do they catch a bus?

 

[Horizon22]

Its services stopping for crew stops, not set down services, due to engineering works at Victoria and services diverting into London Bridge.

I still think that can be configured correctly on the CIS as "unadvertised" or similar, but its been a while since I've looked into that. It might be overridden by safety systems though that if the train is not a booked passenger call, especially somewhere like Norwood Junction which does has limited fast services in normal operation that means this announcement is an unavoidable consequence without being shut off manually.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I still think that can be configured correctly on the CIS as "unadvertised" or similar, but its been a while since I've looked into that. It might be overridden by safety systems though that if the train is not a booked passenger call, especially somewhere like Norwood Junction which does has limited fast services in normal operation that means this announcement is an unavoidable consequence without being shut off manually.

Watford Junction puts up "1st DO NOT BOARD"* for southbound Avanti services, but I don't know if that's being done manually.

* Slightly surprised to see a direct translation of NICHT EINSTEIGEN rather than something more British sounding like "Stand clear" or more wordy.

 

[LA50041]

If these are crew stops, is there a crew room at Norwood Junction? Or do crews come and go from a crew room at the Selhurst depot? If they do, is there a permitted walkway on railway land, or do they catch a bus?

Yes there is a Norwood Crew Depot which is at the Norwood Junction end of Selhurst Depot and has a dedicated walkway to NWD

 

[Parallel]

I still think that can be configured correctly on the CIS as "unadvertised" or similar, but its been a while since I've looked into that. It might be overridden by safety systems though that if the train is not a booked passenger call, especially somewhere like Norwood Junction which does has limited fast services in normal operation that means this announcement is an unavoidable consequence without being shut off manually.

Norwood Junction is an Amey (previously a Ditra) system so the configuration will be different to the ATOS systems used elsewhere. They could in theory play this though.

 

[Southern Dvr]

These are staff stops, they are an absolute headache because the instructions are that drivers should stop and release the doors as if it were a normal stop. The confusion being caused by the trains not being advertised is so easily avoidable. We’ve had one example of a train stopping but not releasing the doors. Unfortunately a member of staff was booked to travel to Norwood and then relieve another train but were instead over carried to London Bridge. Nobody quite knows why these are being shown as staff stops and not just passenger stops.

 

[greaterwest]

Any sort of general time? I'm aware they have set down services only, and the CIS can be configured properly at the station so it doesn't show as calling AND also doesn't show it running fast, but it's quite difficult as you have to somewhat 'trick' the system.

Norwood Junction is an Amey (previously a Ditra) system so the configuration will be different to the ATOS systems used elsewhere. They could in theory play this though.

The Amey system has the ability to discern a non-passenger stop from a fast train if the schedules have been entered correctly.

In SWR land, I believe this would have said "Stand away from the train at platform X, this train is not in use." and the chimes/French horn sounds would have also played.

 

[LeeLivery]

A few years back, I was waiting on platform 1 for the Victoria via Crystal Palace. But a fast train to Victoria randomly stopped (diversions). It was quite busy and I spoke to someone at the door - they didn't expect the stop either. I wasn't complaining - I got to Victoria 20 mins quicker!

 

[Surreytraveller]

Set down or staff reasons? Is Norwood used for Selhurst based crews? Used to happen some early mornings at Selhurst IIRC for a crew change stopping on the fast unadvertised yet the doors released at people got off

There are two crew depots. One at Selhurst, and one at Norwood.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

I was on one of the diverted Eastbourne to London Bridge trains a few weeks ago and that stopped at Norwood Junction, some people did get on there.

 

[westcoaster]

If it is the uckfield trains some do stop, for crew change. These are norwood drivers and selhurst conductors.

We stop overnight at selhurst or norwood depending on route taken they are staff stops with door release.

 

[Southern Dvr]

If it is the uckfield trains some do stop, for crew change. These are norwood drivers and selhurst conductors.

We stop overnight at selhurst or norwood depending on route taken they are staff stops with door release.

we’ve not done done Uckfield crew changes at Norwood since May 2018 timetable.

 

[theking]

These are staff stops, they are an absolute headache because the instructions are that drivers should stop and release the doors as if it were a normal stop. The confusion being caused by the trains not being advertised is so easily avoidable. We’ve had one example of a train stopping but not releasing the doors. Unfortunately a member of staff was booked to travel to Norwood and then relieve another train but were instead over carried to London Bridge. Nobody quite knows why these are being shown as staff stops and not just passenger stops.

How can a staff member be over carried, clear case of someone seeing they can get out of doing a part of their job to the detriment of their colleague

 

[JN114]

How can a staff member be over carried, clear case of someone seeing they can get out of doing a part of their job to the detriment of their colleague

By being a passenger on the train and the actual driver of the train not stopping at the place at which they’re scheduled to get off; exactly as outlined in the post you quoted…

 

[theking]

By being a passenger on the train and the actual driver of the train not stopping at the place at which they’re scheduled to get off; exactly as outlined in the post you quoted…

The train stopped

 

[zwk500]

How can a staff member be over carried, clear case of someone seeing they can get out of doing a part of their job to the detriment of their colleague

Can also happen if a diagram is changed at short notice, or a driver is asked to swap diagrams at late notice. It shouldn't, but it does.

 

[JN114]

The train stopped

But didn’t release the doors - to all intents and purposes, as far as a passenger or a driver travelling as passenger it didn’t stop.

 

[theking]

But didn’t release the doors - to all intents and purposes, as far as a passenger or a driver travelling as passenger it didn’t stop.

No a driver booked to pass is completely different to joe public its not as if it flew through Norwood at 70 it stopped.

If you are booked to pass and relieve a train and it stops at the station you are meant to alight at and the doors don't release you make an effort to notify the driver or get yourself off I can think of 8 ways off the top of my head you don't just sit there dribbling stitching your colleague up so you don't have to relieve the train your supposed to.

 

[mmh]

No a driver booked to pass is completely different to joe public its not as if it flew through Norwood at 70 it stopped.

If you are booked to pass and relieve a train and it stops at the station you are meant to alight at and the doors don't release you make an effort to notify the driver or get yourself off I can think of 8 ways off the top of my head you don't just sit there dribbling stitching your colleague up so you don't have to relieve the train your supposed to.

Well I've no idea what the 8 ways are - it'd be interesting to know them! - but I'm going to presume that staff don't know any more than a passenger that the doors aren't going to be released until the train moves off. Presumably telepathy isn't one of the 8?

 

[the sniper]

Well I've no idea what the 8 ways are - it'd be interesting to know them! - but I'm going to presume that staff don't know any more than a passenger that the doors aren't going to be released until the train moves off. Presumably telepathy isn't one of the 8?

Presumably these 8 ways are on a sliding scale of risk to both the employee and their colleague getting in trouble...

 

[jon0844]

I suspect a fair few of those eight reasons would likely land the member of staff in a fair bit of hot water.

 

[Surreytraveller]

No a driver booked to pass is completely different to joe public its not as if it flew through Norwood at 70 it stopped.

If you are booked to pass and relieve a train and it stops at the station you are meant to alight at and the doors don't release you make an effort to notify the driver or get yourself off I can think of 8 ways off the top of my head you don't just sit there dribbling stitching your colleague up so you don't have to relieve the train your supposed to.

A driver booked to pass is exactly the same as Joe public. Train stops, doors release, passing driver gets off. That's how its supposed to work.
The driver driving the train wouldn't be aware of whether they've got passing crew or not

 

[mmh]

A driver booked to pass is exactly the same as Joe public. Train stops, doors release, passing driver gets off. That's how its supposed to work.
The driver driving the train wouldn't be aware of whether they've got passing crew or not

That's overly simplistic for where we're talking about. For decades late-night trains had unadvertised stops at Selhurst which every local knew of, and the drivers certainly knew the reason they were stoping was to drop off and pick up fellow staff, and decant those who'd worked out all trains stopped there.