Nostalgia: Front seats on 1st Gen DMUs

[strange6]

It's a sad fact that in the world we live in today, there's very little likelihood of anyone designing trains with front view for passengers, in case they inadvertently witness a jumper incident and claim compensation for trauma.

It would be very easy for the forward facing CCTV in most driving cabs to be streamed to the passenger area, and / or to Wi-Fi, but it doesn't and it won't be, for the reason given above.

Maybe I'm too nostalgic, but this never entered people's minds in the '50s, did it?

They didn't need to consider it back in the 50's because society was much more sensible and responsible than it is now.

 

[WestCoast]

It's a sad fact that in the world we live in today, there's very little likelihood of anyone designing trains with front view for passengers, in case they inadvertently witness a jumper incident and claim compensation for trauma.

Hasn't stopped DLR trains and the Siemens Velaro (ICE).

We often hear of driver distress after a jumper incident but what has happened when passengers have witnessed this?

 

[Welshman]

It's a sad fact that in the world we live in today, there's very little likelihood of anyone designing trains with front view for passengers, in case they inadvertently witness a jumper incident and claim compensation for trauma.

Maybe I'm too nostalgic, but this never entered people's minds in the '50s, did it?

Sadly, I think you're right.

However, there are some strange double standards. I've witnessed some nasty things on the roads, but you can still have a grandstand view from the top of a double-decker.

 

[Zamracene749]

Loved sitting at the front of 1st gen DMUs, Middlesbrough to Whitby, Sunderland to Newcastle, later on through the tunnels and bridges of all the West Yorkshire lines, down the coast from Scarborough to Hull, along the Cumbrian coast and the Tyne valley line and one especially memorable flat out run Darlington to York.

Why do we not (generally) have units we can see out of now?

Thinking about the drivers that used to lower the blinds, how mean, twisted, bitter and miserable must some of those blokes have been to lower the blinds in front of an obviously excited little kid with parents on the front seat of a train? In the middle of the day, when reflections/ glare cannot have been an issue? Rotten buggers...

 

[Old Timer]

Hasn't stopped DLR trains and the Siemens Velaro (ICE).

We often hear of driver distress after a jumper incident but what has happened when passengers have witnessed this?

There is no duty of care in such circumstances because the control is not reasonably within the management of the TOC or Network Rail.

The scenario is no different to watching a car crash or someone jumping off a building.

 

[Kingfisher200262]

There is no duty of care in such circumstances because the control is not reasonably within the management of the TOC or Network Rail.

The scenario is no different to watching a car crash or someone jumping off a building.

If this is true, then following the same "no reasonable control" argument, the TOC has no "duty of care" to the driver either.

Practically speaking, of course TOCs are sympathetic to the trauma that drivers suffer, but, in this PC world that we live, this is one reason (the other being the sheer volume of electrical kit in a cab back wall) that there are no longer panoramic front bulkheads.

 

[Old Timer]

If this is true, then following the same "no reasonable control" argument, the TOC has no "duty of care" to the driver either.

Practically speaking, of course TOCs are sympathetic to the trauma that drivers suffer, but, in this PC world that we live, this is one reason (the other being the sheer volume of electrical kit in a cab back wall) that there are no longer panoramic front bulkheads.

A Driver is "at Work" and thus the TOC has a legal duty or their health and safety following an incident. A Driver seeking compensation for any trauma suffered does so under the Criminal Injuries Compensation Act.

 

[notadriver]

Riding the Croydon tram yesterday showed me you can have a panoramic view from the front. In fact the driver had the blinds down but you can still see through them. Passengers can watch them; they don't have a choice.

Personally I wouldn't like to be watched that way at work.

 

[JoeGJ1984]

And I've seen one or two videos of the Chiltern Railways bubblecar still in use and they seem to all have the blinds down (including one of the 50th birthday celebrations last September where they ran the bubblecar all day for one Saturday - seems a bit mean in that case, especially when lots of the passengers would have been enthusiasts) (videos I've seen of the Cardiff bubblecar, though seem to have the blinds up. And I saw a video of the Chiltern bubblecar on the Quantonian special and it had the blinds up).

I'd expect if you get these DMUs on heritage railways, they'd leave the blinds up. (I wonder if anybody has been on these on heritage railways and if there would be lots of people trying to get a front seat).

Has anyone tried asking a driver to raise the blinds (at a terminus) (either a long time ago or on the operational bubblecars)? Have they complied?

 

[Bill EWS]

"Personally I wouldn't like to be watched that way at work"

This states exactly why the majority of drivers seldom left these blinds up. I was at Marylebone Depot for 6 years from 1979 and I always looked on my cab as my office. I doubt if anyone office worker would like one of the walls removed so that everyone can watch you throughout your working day.

I would lift the blind if any passenger requested it or most often when there were youngsters in the front seats who would enjoy the forward view. Sometimes only the off side blind was lifted. However, on the main I drove with the blinds down simply so that I could relax while driving. There were many instances where a nosey passenger had sent a complaint into management because of something the driver may have done that they thought wasn't right!

 

[JoeGJ1984]

I see why drivers do lower the blinds - I think if I was driving one of these DMUs, I would probably usually lower the blinds (I'd prefer to have the privacy).

Seems very mean to lower the blinds on the Bubblecar's birthday though - clearly an enthusiast's day!

 

[seagull]

Has anyone tried asking a driver to raise the blinds (at a terminus) (either a long time ago or on the operational bubblecars)? Have they complied?

I remember asking a rather gruff driver back in the 90s when they started using Class 117s between Clapham Jn and Willesden Jn if he would raise the blind. He did, rather grudgingly, but only on the secondman's side. A manager/inspector/route learner then got on and promptly lowered it again!

On some of my many Class 101 rides around Wigan/Manchester (and if lucky to Sheffield via Hope Valley) in the 90s I often had to ask the driver (usually by knocking on the centre door before departure) if they would mind lifting one of the blinds - was very rare that they said 'no'. More often than not though the secondman side blind was already up, the driver's side left down, in which case I'd leave the driver alone if I could get a seat on that side!

But my most memorable journeys were the ones sat behind the driver with that blind up - not such a good forward view but it was fascinating to watch the gear changing and braking etc. Quite a few journeys like that on the North Downs line Reading-Gatwick on Class 117.

A very short but highly memorable trip from Slough to Windsor & Eton in the 1990s on the only Class 104 DMU operating in that area, it had a white painted roof above cab front.

 

[notadriver]

What I'd like to know is whether everyone thinks train drivers are entitled to privacy at work? Bus and Coach drivers don't get that.

 

[Bill EWS]

You could ask likewise, are passengers, or should I say, customers entitled to front of train views. Afterall, until DMU's all they ever got was side window and door views and were happy enough with that. Why would they be entitled to anything more than having a seat and trains run, nmore or less, to time. Do you complain when flying that you can't see out the front there?

 

[strange6]

You could ask likewise, are passengers, or should I say, customers entitled to front of train views. Afterall, until DMU's all they ever got was side window and door views and were happy enough with that. Why would they be entitled to anything more than having a seat and trains run, nmore or less, to time. Do you complain when flying that you can't see out the front there?

lol Good point! Perhaps we could get the driver to wear a driver cam cap on his head and have it broadcast on numerous VDU's fitted out over the train

 

[LE Greys]

Do you complain when flying that you can't see out the front there?

I certainly would, if the option was available! If I ever have a private jet (very unlikely) I'll insist on having a glass screen between cockpit and cabin. Obviously, I'd much rather do the flying myself, but that's impractical.

Actually, I've just remembered that you can have a front view on some ex-Soviet aircraft, because they have bomber-style glass noses (the Il-76, An-124, Tu-124 &C.). Boeing considered it for 747 first class as well, but rejected it on weight grounds. If I'd been in charge of the Air Force 1 requirement . . .

 

[Welshman]

Interesting that when the 1st gen dmus were introduced in the 1950s & 60s, the views they afforded through the front windows were a major part of their marketting. Also, they would then have been driven mainly by ex-steam men, who you would think would find it very hard to get used to curious and observant passengers immediately behind them, but they seemed to have no problems.

IIRC it was not until later on in the 70s and 80s that they started leaving the blinds down all the time, when they would be beginning to be driven by men who had not known steam. This seems to be when the concept of the cab as the office came in, along with the need for privacy.

So, are there any who can remember if the unions were consulted about the lack of privacy when the dmus were originally designed and introduced? Certainly, if these objections were voiced at the outset they seemed to be unheeded, for, as far as I know, all builds of dmus over 8 years or so had forward views except the Thumpers and the Cl 123s.

And then why the drivers' change of attitude in the 70s and 80s? And what was the management's stand on this change, bearing in mind the original marketting of the stock and the obvious popularity of being able to see out of the front? Did they sanction leaving the blinds down all day. Did they leave it to the drivers concerned. Did they care?

 

[strange6]

Interesting that when the 1st gen dmus were introduced in the 1950s & 60s, the views they afforded through the front windows were a major part of their marketting. Also, they would then have been driven mainly by ex-steam men, who you would think would find it very hard to get used to curious and observant passengers immediately behind them, but they seemed to have no problems.

The ex-steam men had firemen watching them all day so that's probably why they were not too bothered about being watched going about their work.

 

[O L Leigh]

As a driver myself, I can appreciate why you might want to keep the blinds down. With all that glass around you're going to get a lot of potentially very distracting reflections in the windscreen, especially after dark but also during the day. This is still the case now, although all you can see is yourself and the back wall of the cab.

O L Leigh

 

[Welshman]

Interesting that when the 1st gen dmus were introduced in the 1950s & 60s, the views they afforded through the front windows were a major part of their marketting. Also, they would then have been driven mainly by ex-steam men, who you would think would find it very hard to get used to curious and observant passengers immediately behind them, but they seemed to have no problems.

The ex-steam men had firemen watching them all day so that's probably why they were not too bothered about being watched going about their work.

Good point, strange6
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As a driver myself, I can appreciate why you might want to keep the blinds down. With all that glass around you're going to get a lot of potentially very distracting reflections in the windscreen, especially after dark but also during the day. This is still the case now, although all you can see is yourself and the back wall of the cab.

O L Leigh

Thank you, also, O L Leigh.
I realised the need to lower the blinds at night but didn't appreciate reflections were also a problem in daylight.

 

[4SRKT]

My favourite was at the front of a 108 on the 13:47 Whitehaven > Preston en route to great days out at the R&ER. Armed with sausage and chips from a nearby chip shop we took our positions in the saloon for the ride through the tunnel and along the coast. I've never been along there since the demise of the 108s and I can't imagine doing the line any other way

 

[JoeGJ1984]

Has any operator ever done railtours with these DMUs? I'm sure it would prove popular? (The front seats would be difficult to get though!)

As an aside, I've seen a video of a class 150 where somebody was filming through a glass panel in the cab door. There's a door in front of that though, which (I presume) is usually closed. On the NWM challenge yesterday, I got a seat where I could see through that window and would have seen the track ahead (not as much as on the older DMUs) but the driver closed the other door further forward (I can see why they would do it though; I don't know if they would be open to a request to leave it open, but I didn't bother).

 

[strange6]

Has any operator ever done railtours with these DMUs? I'm sure it would prove popular? (The front seats would be difficult to get though!)

As an aside, I've seen a video of a class 150 where somebody was filming through a glass panel in the cab door. There's a door in front of that though, which (I presume) is usually closed. On the NWM challenge yesterday, I got a seat where I could see through that window and would have seen the track ahead (not as much as on the older DMUs) but the driver closed the other door further forward (I can see why they would do it though; I don't know if they would be open to a request to leave it open, but I didn't bother).

Well, there are plenty of 1st Gen DMU's knocking about on the private lines. I dare say they could get a bit of money if they loaned them out for nationwide tours. I would love to see one at Man Vic again - my hair would stand on end!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Has any operator ever done railtours with these DMUs? I'm sure it would prove popular? (The front seats would be difficult to get though!)

Oh yes, about 20 years ago there was the "Vectis Velocipede" which ran on one of the Network Days - I think it was the 3rd one - from London to Portsmouth Harbour and back; it was pair of 2 car DMUs. I forget which class, but they might have been 108s.

I rode it from Epsom to Portsmouth ( talk about a convenient pick up point! ), nipped over to the IoW for a couple of hours then spent the afternoon using the Network Day ticket.

 

[JoeGJ1984]

Has any operator ever done railtours with these DMUs? I'm sure it would prove popular? (The front seats would be difficult to get though!)

As an aside, I've seen a video of a class 150 where somebody was filming through a glass panel in the cab door. There's a door in front of that though, which (I presume) is usually closed. On the NWM challenge yesterday, I got a seat where I could see through that window and would have seen the track ahead (not as much as on the older DMUs) but the driver closed the other door further forward (I can see why they would do it though; I don't know if they would be open to a request to leave it open, but I didn't bother).

This video shows what I was talking about - has anyone experienced this kind of view? (There's a door in front of the door with the window that this person is filming from and I sat once in a position to see ahead but the driver closed the door. Would drivers be open to a request to leaving the door open?)

 

[matchmaker]

Before the 303's were refurb'd, they also had a front seat cab view - most fun!

Those were the days!

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

And I've seen one or two videos of the Chiltern Railways bubblecar still in use and they seem to all have the blinds down (including one of the 50th birthday celebrations last September where they ran the bubblecar all day for one Saturday - seems a bit mean in that case, especially when lots of the passengers would have been enthusiasts) (videos I've seen of the Cardiff bubblecar, though seem to have the blinds up. And I saw a video of the Chiltern bubblecar on the Quantonian special and it had the blinds up).

I'd expect if you get these DMUs on heritage railways, they'd leave the blinds up. (I wonder if anybody has been on these on heritage railways and if there would be lots of people trying to get a front seat).

Has anyone tried asking a driver to raise the blinds (at a terminus) (either a long time ago or on the operational bubblecars)? Have they complied?

I have been on some preseved lines and the blinds were left up, I think there would be complaints if they didn't. I recall many years ago going from Exeter to Exmouth and the blinds were almost always up at least on the right hand side, the driver sat on the left. It was similar in South Wales too. I presume you can still see ahead on the Newcastle Metro unless they have different trains now? you can normally get similar full frontal views on most of the tram networks in England too, well I did on the Croydon & Manchester Bury Trams. (Which bythe way never seem to be long enough for the number of passenegrs using them.)

 

[ACE1888]

During the late 70's I had a hospital appointment at Truro Hospital (I was around 9 or 10) we had a DMU from Penzance, the driver invited into the cab and I had a ride up, never forget that, shame i didn't get a photo, or 'trainspotted' in those days. My Mum sat behind us, I was completely 'made up' with the whole experience!
More recently, the South Devon Railway Diesel gala of 2009, we had a 'behind' the drivers window seat on their Class 122 'Bubble' which was in Regional railways livery at the time, it only did one trip from Buckfastleigh to Totnes Riverside, but was 'streets above' any other trips during the day (not that there was anything wrong with any of them!).This was with the Girlfriend this time!!!

 

[Welshman]

A six mile journey took me back 40 years yesterday.
The cl.101 dmu was well turned-out, and had clean windows. All the blinds were up at both the front and the back ends and the view was fantastic. The driver even opened the sliding door between his cab and the saloon so we could chat and hear the sounds in the cab more clearly.
My companion, who is not a rail enthusiast, said it was the best train journey he'd been on. It was on the Poppy Line, between Sheringham and Holt.

 

[The Barlow Boy]

No-ones mentioned that the blinds invariably had holes made in them so drivers could observe the goings-on that often happened at night with the blinds down between stations. I know of at least one run by* and one station overun caused by this - it was the same driver on different occasions!

* SPADS before SPADS became flavour of the decade.