"Numbersakes"

[norbitonflyer]

I seem to recall an event at which Class 60 no 60 009 met A4 Pacific "Union of South Africa", which also carried the number 60009. Have there been any other instances of locos meeting their "numbersakes" - that is two locomotives which, at one time or another, both carried the same number? For example, to take some of the more likely examples, a GWR "63xx" 2-6-0 meeting the class 22 (D6300 class) diesel with the same number. Or a "Jinty" meeting the Class 47 which would later have the same number. I do recall once seeing at Euston a BG (Full brake) with an 810xx number (before renumbering to avoid such clashes), but its Class 81 namesake was not in evidence.

 

[Speed43125]

In a similar vein, I recall that it was specially arranged that when being towed "Union of South Africa" was towed by 66009.

 

[eastwestdivide]

Has Tornado the steam loco ever met the East Mids 222 Tornado, which carries the same coach number as the loco?
Ditto the Deltics and the single-car DMUs in the 550xx series.

 

[43055]

Has Tornado the steam loco ever met the East Mids 222 Tornado, which carries the same coach number as the loco?
Ditto the Deltics and the single-car DMUs in the 550xx series.

For the 222 a quick google image search shows tornado was at the naming of the 222 at Sheffield. The steam engine in the bay and the 222 on platform 8.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Despite being single cars, 153s carry both set numbers (1533**) and vehicle numbers (573**). This means that the first 15 or so 153s have "numbersakes" in the shape of the former Virgin Trains Class 57s.

EDIT: Apparently not, see below...

 

[43096]

Despite being single cars, 153s carry both set numbers (1533**) and vehicle numbers (573**). This means that the first 15 or so 153s have "numbersakes" in the shape of the former Virgin Trains Class 57s.

That’s not correct - indeed couldn’t happen as it would be a number clash on the system - as the first 35 153s have car numbers 52301-335. 153351 upwards were converted from 57301-335 and had 50 added to their numbers shortly after conversion to match the vehicle and set number.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

That’s not correct - indeed couldn’t happen as it would be a number clash on the system - as the first 35 153s have car numbers 52301-335. 153351 upwards were converted from 57301-335 and had 50 added to their numbers shortly after conversion to match the vehicle and set number.

Cheers. Mistakenly thought they'd all got 573** numbers when converted.

 

[43096]

Cheers. Mistakenly thought they'd all got 573** numbers when converted.

The oddity really is why 57301-335 didn’t become 52351-385 on conversion if they were renumbering anyway.

 

[eastwestdivide]

For the 222 a quick google image search shows tornado was at the naming of the 222 at Sheffield. The steam engine in the bay and the 222 on platform 8.

Thanks - I must have been googling it wrong!
Now found the A1 Trust article mentioning

East Midlands Trains named Meridian vehicle number 60163 (which is part of Meridian set number 222003). This vehicle happens to share the number 60163 with the A1 steam locomotive Tornado, which was alongside to mark the occasion.

East Midlands Trains names Tornado! - The A1 Steam Locomotive Trust

On the 24th March East Midlands Trains named one of its Class 222 Meridian trains (222003) after Tornado, the first new main line steam locomotive to be built in Britain for almost 50 years. The dedication ceremony took place at Sheffield station and was carried out by Tim Shoveller, Managing...

www.a1steam.com

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The oddity really is why 57301-335 didn’t become 52351-385 on conversion if they were renumbering anyway.

Agreed- as they were fitted with toilets, the 52*** numbers would be more appropriate (in line with most 15x classes)... but if you start looking for uniformity in TOPS, that way madness lies!

 

[Wyrleybart]

The oddity really is why 57301-335 didn’t become 52351-385 on conversion if they were renumbering anyway.

Indeed. I had wondered that several times.

 

[pdeaves]

Not quite in the spirit of the original question but...
In the 1970s when HSTs carried unit numbers (class 253/254) on the nose ends it didn't take long for the power cars to get swapped around. There is at least one photograph showing, apparently, the same unit simultaneously at two platforms in Kings Cross.

 

[Western Gaffer]

I captured a pair of 'numbersakes' in a photo that I can sadly no longer find, at Doncaster in the late 1970s or maybe very early 1980s.

A class 56 (004 if I recall correctly), heading northbound through the station on an MGR working, passed a stationary DMU set containing the car with the same number, prior to its later renumbering into uniqueness (54xxx?), presenting the opportunity for a rare shot including both numbers, wish I could still put my hands on it!

 

[norbitonflyer]

Good spot! E56004 (indeed E56000-49 inclusive) were class 114 driving trailers and all allocated to Lincoln and frequently turned up at Doncaster. And class 56s from 56031 upwards were built there. A less likely, but not impossible, match, would have been one of the Class 114 DMBs and a class 50, which were not ever allocated to duties through Doncaster but did get overhauled there.

I've just found an interesting one. The same number on two diesels allocated to the same depot for five years. In 1969 dmu "bubble car" W55013 was converted to parcels use, reclassified class 131, and transferred to the Scottish Region, being allocated to a number of depots but ending up at Haymarket in 1972. Two years later, one of that depot's resident Deltics, "The Black Watch", was renumbered from D9013 to 55013. They remained on the same depot until 1979, when all Deltics were concentrated on York. The dmu was withdrawn in 1980 and the Deltic the following year.

 

[Merle Haggard]

The O.P. may have only intended to consider locos, but...
T.O.P.S. in its early days was just a system to monitor and distribute freight wagons. At that time, there were still large numbers of pre-nationalisation wagons about, as well as B.R. - built ones. There was numerical duplication between the various series but, because a letter prefix (M,W,S,E or B) was used the complete wagon identity was unique.
T.O.P.S. enquiries, however, could only be made on the numeric element of the identity. When I was monitoring a pioneer 45t G.L.W. airbraked wagon, 450000, sometimes the location and detail returned was for an ex LMS 3-plank wagon, M450000 (actually, by then probably DM...). Presumably there were other examples.

Off topic, but already raised above; the subject of T.O.P.S renumberings ostensibly to avoid clashes. I'm puzzled why, in the early days, the complete series of 1000 was renumbered - or at least the survivors - (e.g. 15000 and 16000 CKs, 50000 dmu) when the locos with clashing numbers didn't extend beyond --050, but later (e.g. class 57s locos and d.m.u.) only clashing ones were renumbered.

 

[Taunton]

I've just found an interesting one. The same number on two diesels allocated to the same depot for five years. In 1969 dmu "bubble car" W55013 was converted to parcels use, reclassified class 131, and transferred to the Scottish Region, being allocated to a number of depots but ending up at Haymarket in 1972. Two years later, one of that depot's resident Deltics, "The Black Watch", was renumbered from D9013 to 55013. They remained on the same depot until 1979, when all Deltics were concentrated on York. The dmu was withdrawn in 1980 and the Deltic the following year.

Similar recollection, at Edinburgh Waverley in the 1970s, of bubble car 55015, one of those converted to parcels use, up against the buffers in an east end bay, and right alongside at the Up Main platform was Deltic 55015.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Similar recollection, at Edinburgh Waverley in the 1970s, of bubble car 55015, one of those converted to parcels use, up against the buffers in an east end bay, and right alongside at the Up Main platform was Deltic 55015.

Indeed, all three converted "bubble cars" 55013 to 55015 were initially at Leith and then Haymarket, so could have been at Waverley seen alongside Deltics, although 55014/15 were later allocated elsewhere in Scotland. 55013 is particularly remarkable in that, unlike the other two, its "numbersake" Deltic was also officially allocated to Haymarket. (55014 was a Gateshead loco, and 55015 Finsbury Park)

 

[delt1c]

Deltic 55.013 could regularly been seen at Haymarket with 131 single car Parcels unit 55013

 

[norbitonflyer]

Off topic, but already raised above; the subject of T.O.P.S renumberings ostensibly to avoid clashes. I'm puzzled why, in the early days, the complete series of 1000 was renumbered - or at least the survivors - (e.g. 15000 and 16000 CKs, 50000 dmu) when the locos with clashing numbers didn't extend beyond --050, but later (e.g. class 57s locos and d.m.u.) only clashing ones were renumbered.

Class 15 and 16 diesels never received TOPS numbers and had in any case all been withdrawn before the coaching stock renumbering scheme of 1983. The 15000 and 16000 CKs were renumbered to avoid duplications with SR-design EPB vehicles (trailers and driving trailers) which, although built by BR, were numbered in the Southern Railway series. Like all pre-nationalisation coaching stock, they were distinguished from each other and BR coaching stock by a suffix indicating the originating railway, so S15021 was a Mark 1 CK, and S15021S was a 4EPB Trailer Second, (the "S" prefix indicating they were allocated to the Southern Region).

There were also diesel shunters numbered in the 15xxx series under the original BR scheme and doubtless some of the Southern Railway batch (152xx) met their 4EPB counterparts from time to time.

Other extempore renumberings of coaching / mu stock included 59101/59105 (class 111) to 59110/111, and SR demu cars 60014/15/16/18/100/101 to 60152/53/116/118/154/155.

One of the reasons TOPs allocations have appeared to be somewhat random is the desire to avoid such clashes. Thus Class 66 was so numbered because the of the large number of EMU vehicles still then occupying the 61000-65999 series. Likewise, the 70xxx series only became available in 2005 with the withdrawal of the last slam door EMU stock.

 

[Deepgreen]

I recall the renumbering of 4DDs 4001 and 4002 to 4901 and 4902 so that the (prototype) 4PEPs could take those numbers.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Class 15 and 16 diesels never received TOPS numbers and had in any case all been withdrawn before the coaching stock renumbering scheme of 1983. The 15000 and 16000 CKs were renumbered to avoid duplications with SR-design EPB vehicles (trailers and driving trailers) which, although built by BR, were numbered in the Southern Railway series. Like all pre-nationalisation coaching stock, they were distinguished from each other and BR coaching stock by a suffix indicating the originating railway, so S15021 was a Mark 1 CK, and S15021S was a 4EPB Trailer Second, (the "S" prefix indicating they were allocated to the Southern Region).

There were also diesel shunters numbered in the 15xxx series under the original BR scheme and doubtless some of the Southern Railway batch (152xx) met their 4EPB counterparts from time to time.

Other extempore renumberings of coaching / mu stock included 59101/59105 (class 111) to 59110/111, and SR demu cars 60014/15/16/18/100/101 to 60152/53/116/118/154/155.

One of the reasons TOPs allocations have appeared to be somewhat random is the desire to avoid such clashes. Thus Class 66 was so numbered because the of the large number of EMU vehicles still then occupying the 61000-65999 series. Likewise, the 70xxx series only became available in 2005 with the withdrawal of the last slam door EMU stock.

Thank you for that, another one of my old mysteries solved.
Referring to the suffices for pre-nationalisation design coaching stock; reading through contemporary Railway Observers it seems that these were not introduced until a little after the arrival of the new standard coaches. If this source is to be believed (and the coaching stock notes were from observers rather than official) some care was taken to avoid allocating a standard coach to a particular region if that region already had a (pre-Nat.) coach with the same number. but presumably this would soon get difficult - the GWR did not generally have block series for numbers, keeping to 4 digits but leaving only random gaps. It was also reported that the LMR had renumbered 40000 series NPCCS into the 60000 series to clear numbers for the standards, but I'm sure that wasn't entirely true - the I remember the 6 wheel fish vans having M403nnM numbers in my trainspotting days.

 

[70014IronDuke]

... Or a "Jinty" meeting the Class 47 which would later have the same number. ...

No, not possible. Jinties were probably all gone by end 1966, certainly by 67. Cl 47 renumbering was only started in 1973.

 

[Richard Scott]

If could get BR standard 73129 to the GWR and put E6036's TOPS number back on then could have one meeting it's other numbersake. Did black 5 45110 ever meet its class 45 numbersake before the 45 was withdrawn?

 

[pdeaves]

Or a "Jinty" meeting the Class 47 which would later have the same number.

No, not possible. Jinties were probably all gone by end 1966, certainly by 67. Cl 47 renumbering was only started in 1973.

norbitonflyer said 'would later have the same number', so it was certainly possible for the physical machines to meet [1], if not actually carrying the same number at the time. That is, Jinty 47406 may possibly have met D1505 before the latter became 47406.

[1] For these purposes, we can ignore the debate over whether the machine is the same once it has had no end of components replaced over the years!