Observing speed limits in 90s/BR days

[Philip]

My local line is the Manchester-Bolton-Preston line which until recently had a top speed of 75mph, now increased to 95-100mph. But was it quite common for drivers to go above the linespeed in the 90s or days before privatisation, if the traction was capable and if the conditions and layout of that stretch of line made it safe enough?

Just that I can remember the 47-hauled Scotland intercities along here and my memory is of them going faster than the Sprinters and 142s, even though all should have been at the same speed of 75mph. Also my memory of the up line south of Bolton was that trains seemed to fly along here compared to down line where it felt more sluggish.

Or did the Bolton line used to be 90-100mph but was reduced to 75mph?

 

[sw1ller]

I can’t comment on this line but I know drivers (all retired now) have told me they regularly hit 75mph on the borderlands line in 40-50mph areas. So I would assume it happened elsewhere too.

 

[John Webb]

Adrian Vaughan in a couple of his books about his signalling days mentions that following several derailments of short wheelbase wagons on the Western Region, a blanket speed restriction of around 45mph was introduced and enforced by supervisory staff using radar speed guns at the lineside. Trouble was that the train schedules weren't altered to match and drivers found themselves in the awkward position of not being able to run to the schedule or being caught overspeeding if they did.....

 

[36270k]

On the BR Southern in the 1970's/80's many 2-EPB/4-EPB and all 4-SUB units were not fitted with speedometers

 

[Ianno87]

My local line is the Manchester-Bolton-Preston line which until recently had a top speed of 75mph, now increased to 95-100mph. But was it quite common for drivers to go above the linespeed in the 90s or days before privatisation, if the traction was capable and if the conditions and layout of that stretch of line made it safe enough?

Just that I can remember the 47-hauled Scotland intercities along here and my memory is of them going faster than the Sprinters and 142s, even though all should have been at the same speed of 75mph. Also my memory of the up line south of Bolton was that trains seemed to fly along here compared to down line where it felt more sluggish.

Or did the Bolton line used to be 90-100mph but was reduced to 75mph?

The Up line south of Bolton was faster than the Down. Up was pretty much 75 throughout, but the Down was 60 from Kearsley onwards

 

[Irascible]

I'm one of those who's been aboard an up HST - several times - ex-Bristol in the late 70s which we timed at around 140 ( given timing by mileposts is hardly 100% accurate ). Felt fine, but you could certainly tell it was way over the 125 limit even without timing it...

 

[43096]

I'm one of those who's been aboard an up HST - several times - ex-Bristol in the late 70s which we timed at around 140 ( given timing by mileposts is hardly 100% accurate ). Felt fine, but you could certainly tell it was way over the 125 limit even without timing it...

Wasn't there an unofficial "140 club" on the Western, particularly among London drivers? Think there used to be an hourly taxi/bus from Paddington back to Old Oak that they were keen to catch...

 

[Gloster]

Wasn't there an unofficial "140 club" on the Western, particularly among London drivers? Think there used to be an hourly taxi/bus from Paddington back to Old Oak that they were keen to catch...

If I remember correctly, the BR staff minibus service between Paddington and Old Oak was half-hourly, at least in the mid-1980s. On some occasions when there was no minibus, a loco was substituted; the rear cab could get crowded.

 

[Ploughman]

For On Track Plant such as Tampers there was a BRB Instruction sent out in the 80's stating that Speedometers must be checked during every transit move.
To check that it was working Mileposts were to be used ith a table issued giving Minutes and seconds between MP's ranging from 5 mph to 90 mph.
If any speedo failed then the machine was to be withdrawn from use after completing its work shift and returning to stabling point.

This was applicable to plant machinery but I would imagine that normal trcation would be covered by a similar instruction.

 

[Bevan Price]

My local line is the Manchester-Bolton-Preston line which until recently had a top speed of 75mph, now increased to 95-100mph. But was it quite common for drivers to go above the linespeed in the 90s or days before privatisation, if the traction was capable and if the conditions and layout of that stretch of line made it safe enough?

Just that I can remember the 47-hauled Scotland intercities along here and my memory is of them going faster than the Sprinters and 142s, even though all should have been at the same speed of 75mph. Also my memory of the up line south of Bolton was that trains seemed to fly along here compared to down line where it felt more sluggish.

Or did the Bolton line used to be 90-100mph but was reduced to 75mph?

Bolton towards Manchester is mostly downhill, so not surprising if trains went faster. Northbound, you also had a (50? mph) limit through the old Farnworth Tunnel.
Most drivers did try to keep (more or less) to limits, with any excess rarely more than about 5 mph over the limit, although there were occasional exceptions.

And on level track, some of the lower-powered Mark 1 dmus were incapable of exceeding any 70 mph limits -- some of them could not even reach that speed.

 

[Taunton]

The 2 x Class 27 push-pull Edinburgh-Glasgow in the 1970s was limited to 90mph for all the parameters ; the locos, the track and the signalling. It was still semaphore in part, east of Falkirk. Nevertheless the crews regularly pushed those little locos up to 100mph. On the normal timetable there wasn't much point, as the service was timed at both ends to come in just after the dmu stopper, but if there had been a slightly late start there was every chance of a belter of a run. The crews knew well what they were doing and their sightings of the various distants along the way, especially eastbound into Haymarket which had no impediment to a fast run in.

 

[CW2]

In general you could split this into two categories of overspeeding, namely low speed routes e.g. Ayr - Stranraer or the West Highland Line where regular drivers would know where they could exceed the plated speed limits to regain time, and high speed limits where the maximum of the route or the traction unit is exceeded. Speeding on low-speed routes was a common occurrence, especially when delays had occurred. High speed exceedances were more rare, although particular classes of locos were more likely to feature than others. On the ECML the Deltics and the early years of the class 91s featured prominently, for example. On the WCML any of the AC loco classes could spring a surprise - I remember a tale of a class 86/2 being booked for rough riding, whereas it was actually suffering from a defective speedometer, and had been clocking up speeds in excess of 130 mph in passenger service.

I guess to answer the OP the Bolton line would come into the first category, where regular drivers knew where they could bend the rules.

 

[hexagon789]

I'm one of those who's been aboard an up HST - several times - ex-Bristol in the late 70s which we timed at around 140 ( given timing by mileposts is hardly 100% accurate ). Felt fine, but you could certainly tell it was way over the 125 limit even without timing it...

Within 18 months of the first WR sets running in passenger traffic all sets had had speed limiters fitted so certainly by mid-1978 it would've been impossible to attain anything like 140mph

The 2 x Class 27 push-pull Edinburgh-Glasgow in the 1970s was limited to 90mph for all the parameters ; the locos, the track and the signalling. It was still semaphore in part, east of Falkirk. Nevertheless the crews regularly pushed those little locos up to 100mph. On the normal timetable there wasn't much point, as the service was timed at both ends to come in just after the dmu stopper, but if there had been a slightly late start there was every chance of a belter of a run. The crews knew well what they were doing and their sightings of the various distants along the way, especially eastbound into Haymarket which had no impediment to a fast run in.

My 1977 Scotland Sectional appendix interestingly has a 100 linespeed limit Glasgow-Polmont, though I can't think what would be permitted such a speed then. Polmont-Edinburgh is listed as 75 max except that "Edinburgh/Glasgow high-speed trains may run at 90mph".

 

[EveningStar]

Wasn't there an unofficial "140 club" on the Western, particularly among London drivers? Think there used to be an hourly taxi/bus from Paddington back to Old Oak that they were keen to catch...

O.S. Nock in his book 'Two Miles a Minute', published in 1980 (with my copy carrying a sticker denoting awarded to me as school prize for lower sixth engineering drawing!), in describing early days of the WR HST's writes, "There is no doubt that once they were fully accustomed to the new trains the drivers enjoyed the high-speed running, so much so that when there was time to be made up, and signals are clear, some of them indulged occasionally and considerably faster running. There was, indeed, what a very senior engineer once described to me as 'a 140 club' ... a regulating device has since been added that limits the speed, in practice, to no more than about 128 mph."

 

[hexagon789]

O.S. Nock in his book 'Two Miles a Minute', published in 1980 (with my copy carrying a sticker denoting awarded to me as school prize for lower sixth engineering drawing!), in describing early days of the WR HST's writes, "There is no doubt that once they were fully accustomed to the new trains the drivers enjoyed the high-speed running, so much so that when there was time to be made up, and signals are clear, some of them indulged occasionally and considerably faster running. There was, indeed, what a very senior engineer once described to me as 'a 140 club' ... a regulating device has since been added that limits the speed, in practice, to no more than about 128 mph."

Speeds in the 130 range seem common enough, 140 seems much much rarer

 

[Ken H]

Were speedos in those days a bit inaccurate? their accuracy was based on the diameter of the wheels. Which changed a little at each tyre turning.

Thats even assuming they were set up properly in the first place.

 

[hexagon789]

Were speedos in those days a bit inaccurate? their accuracy was based on the diameter of the wheels. Which changed a little at each tyre turning.

Thats even assuming they were set up properly in the first place.

A fair question, certainly the HST speed limiters in original condition would cut in at anything from 132 down to 123 (on minimum diameter) depending on wheel wear.

 

[Irascible]

Within 18 months of the first WR sets running in passenger traffic all sets had had speed limiters fitted so certainly by mid-1978 it would've been impossible to attain anything like 140mph

I was travelling on them from more or less from the start ( my father was going to Reading fairly frequently ) so there was plenty of opportunity, at least. Certainly wasn't every trip & I remember being a bit disappointed ( well, as a boy you would! ) when things apparently calmed down. Thought it was a bit later but that's a horribly long time ago now!

 

[hexagon789]

I was travelling on them from more or less from the start ( my father was going to Reading fairly frequently ) so there was plenty of opportunity, at least. Certainly wasn't every trip & I remember being a bit disappointed ( well, as a boy you would! ) when things apparently calmed down. Thought it was a bit later but that's a horribly long time ago now!

In the early days definitely; it's my understanding that only the WR sets could've done the 130mph+ speeds, the ER/ScR sets all gained limiters before 125 service commenced on the ECML

 

[Inversnecky]

My local line is the Manchester-Bolton-Preston line which until recently had a top speed of 75mph, now increased to 95-100mph.

is the increase due to improved braking? Just as they have higher speed limits for MUs on signs?

 

[30907]

is the increase due to improved braking? Just as they have higher speed limits for MUs on signs?

Don't think these are "MU only" speeds. Mostly due to major rebuild/relaying so the track and ballast can be maintained at the higher speed.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I'm sure I remember a similar thread about this a few months ago...

I remember travelling on Southern 4Ceps in the 1980s where on certain stretches of line, the drivers could "open up" and make them run like the clappers - given line conditions and clear signals of course. And I was in a few cabs at the time...

 

[Bungle158]

In the early days definitely; it's my understanding that only the WR sets could've done the 130mph+ speeds, the ER/ScR sets all gained limiters before 125 service commenced on the ECML

I used the PAD RDG services frequently during the late 70s. Best time l ever recorded was just shy of 136mph and that on a down service. Given the obvious scope for inaccuracy, although l did have a decent stopwatch, l recall that speeds of 130mph were not uncommon.

 

[Roger1973]

I had a couple of journeys on 4 REP + 8 TC trains on Waterloo - Bournemouth journeys where I timed them (on the mileposts + stopwatch method) at 100 mph

 

[WessexEclectic]

I'm sure I remember a similar thread about this a few months ago...

I remember travelling on Southern 4Ceps in the 1980s where on certain stretches of line, the drivers could "open up" and make them run like the clappers - given line conditions and clear signals of course. And I was in a few cabs at the time...

Sounds like the stories of shoe gear / 3rd rail interaction tests for the introduction of Eurostars. A 4 REP, the Headcorn straight and the middle of the night....

 

[hexagon789]

I used the PAD RDG services frequently during the late 70s. Best time l ever recorded was just shy of 136mph and that on a down service. Given the obvious scope for inaccuracy, although l did have a decent stopwatch, l recall that speeds of 130mph were not uncommon.

Well the prototype set did manage 143 formed as a 2+7, so I think that proves that ~140 would be possible

 

[Ianno87]

Don't think these are "MU only" speeds. Mostly due to major rebuild/relaying so the track and ballast can be maintained at the higher speed.

And some realignment, particularly through Chorley, between Bolton and Moses Gate, and through Farnworth tunnel.

 

[Crewe Exile]

As far as I remember ‘hairy driving’ was pretty commonplace - certainly in the 80s!. It was almost seen as expected if the service was running late!. Had various ‘spirited’ runs over the North Wales Coast, Roarers down the WCML, one of the best was a pair of 20s on a Blackpool - Stoke relief in 89 or 90 - I dare say they had never seen speeds like that before - clocked over 90mph at numerous points!

 

[CW2]

I clocked 20154 + 20206 at 97 mph descending from Cobbinshaw towaards Haymarket on an Exeter - Edinburgh working back in 1985. On arrival at Edinburgh the driver was quite enthused with the experience, claiming he'd achieved a speed of 100 mph. The second man was grimfaced and tight lipped, and looked distinctly green around the gills. I suspect he had been hanging on in fear of his life, as the 20s were a bit bouncy at that speed. The driver was a renowned Motherwell headcase, who was eventually sacked after an incident of propelling an engineering ballast train at 45mph within a possession whilst staff were hanging on for dear life.

 

[jumble]

My local line is the Manchester-Bolton-Preston line which until recently had a top speed of 75mph, now increased to 95-100mph. But was it quite common for drivers to go above the linespeed in the 90s or days before privatisation, if the traction was capable and if the conditions and layout of that stretch of line made it safe enough?

Just that I can remember the 47-hauled Scotland intercities along here and my memory is of them going faster than the Sprinters and 142s, even though all should have been at the same speed of 75mph. Also my memory of the up line south of Bolton was that trains seemed to fly along here compared to down line where it felt more sluggish.

Or did the Bolton line used to be 90-100mph but was reduced to 75mph?

On the latter days of the A stocks on the MET they were supposedly limited to 50MPH because of bogie cracking
I would travel regularly home on the fasts and my GPS would regularly show 65 around Neasden on the Northbound
in a % term of overspeed this must be amongst the largest

Also travelling on the Lancing to London fasts in the mid 70s if one stood and looked in the locked cabs in the middle of the train the sppedos would often show 90 +mph which I imagine was faster than they should have been going.