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Observing speed limits in 90s/BR days

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Whistler40145

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Sometime in the early 1990s, I was doing a Regional Railways Class 31 from Liverpool Lime Street to Blackpool North, we were bombing along quite nicely on the Slow lines just north of Leyland and were going faster than a Virgin West Coast service on the Fast lines hauled by a Class 87
 
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30907

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Also travelling on the Lancing to London fasts in the mid 70s if one stood and looked in the locked cabs in the middle of the train the sppedos would often show 90 +mph which I imagine was faster than they should have been going.
90 was permitted on the Brighton line.
 

bramling

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On the latter days of the A stocks on the MET they were supposedly limited to 50MPH because of bogie cracking
I would travel regularly home on the fasts and my GPS would regularly show 65 around Neasden on the Northbound
in a % term of overspeed this must be amongst the largest

Speeding was quite common on LU in the days before incident recorders. This was partly a function of line speeds being rather low in places. It’s not something seen nowadays, due to the provision of incident recorders on the trains on pretty much all the lines now (Bakerloo is the exception), and also ATP systems on many lines as well which make it largely physically impossible to exceed the maximum speed.

How much of an issue this may have been is open to discussion. Older signalling had overlaps calculated to line speed AIUI, whereas over time this shifted to maximum attainable speed. A train speeding could theoretically breach a signal overlap, however for this to result in a collision would mean (1) the driver had to make no reaction at all to the signal which is unlikely, and (2) the preceding train had to be positioned just in advance of the overlap. So a set of circumstances would have to have coincided, which no doubt eventually would have happened. It did sort of happen at Holborn in 1980, though the signalling design contributed to that also.
 
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Peter Mugridge

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I had a couple of journeys on 4 REP + 8 TC trains on Waterloo - Bournemouth journeys where I timed them (on the mileposts + stopwatch method) at 100 mph
Not very clear, but here is a REP speedo ( right hand dial ) with the needle jammed so hard against the stop mark, which was just beyond the 100 mph indication, that it wasn't even quivering. Photo taken in 1985 while passing through Hersham.


Edited to remove a spurious extra "m".
 

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MotCO

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Were speeding drivers taking unnecessary risks? If an accident occurred when a train was exceeding lineside limits, would the driver be sacked, or is it acceptable to speed to make up time, for example, if delayed previously?
 

Cowley

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Not very clear, but here is a REP speedo ( right hand dial ) with the needle jammed so hard against the stop mark, which was just beyond the 100m mph indication, that it wasn't even quivering. Photo taken in 1985 while passing through Hersham.
Love it.
 

Richard Scott

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Not very clear, but here is a REP speedo ( right hand dial ) with the needle jammed so hard against the stop mark, which was just beyond the 100m mph indication, that it wasn't even quivering. Photo taken in 1985 while passing through Hersham.
Possibly posted this before but had 73110 and a 3-Rep at 103mph between Southampton and Bournemouth. Still think pair of 60s at 97mph going to take some beating for overspeed (was on North Wales Coast day and verified by a number of people). Going abroad clocked a CZ 371 at 116mph in Germany on a late running sleeper, glad wasn't in the berths!!!
 

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Were speeding drivers taking unnecessary risks? If an accident occurred when a train was exceeding lineside limits, would the driver be sacked, or is it acceptable to speed to make up time, for example, if delayed previously?

The answer is that back in "those days" nobody would have known, as there were no on-train data recorders. Glancing back through historic accidents reports will show it was a completely different world back then, where things like speed had to be estimated based on damage and witness estimates.

There were certainly more accidents back in BR days, though one has to look quite hard to find accidents caused by deliberate excess speed alone, as in many cases were speed was a factor there were other issues like intoxication, possibility of driver incapacitated, or similar. The Salisbury accident in 1906 is probably the most famous, though there are others.

It's *very* rare to find speeding on the mainline nowadays, and in the unlikely event one does find it chances are it's not intentional.
 

Gloster

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Drivers were expected to know the limits of their routes and traction and (unofficially), with experience, to what extent they could safely exceed them. Remember, the driver is the first person to collide with something if the loco derails. It would be difficult to know if a driver exceeded the speed limit unless they did it frequently, excessively or in stupid locations. There might be a quiet word with a new driver who appeared to be becoming overconfident before they had much time to gain experience; a more experienced driver who was observed to be doing it a bit too much might be told the shunting-locos can’t go very fast. Officially, it was permitted to go faster than the timetable indicated to make up time, but the wording made it clear that all speed limits should be observed. However, doing your best to get the train back on schedule was seen as a good thing and allowed a multitude of small sins to be overlooked.
 

hexagon789

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Not very clear, but here is a REP speedo ( right hand dial ) with the needle jammed so hard against the stop mark, which was just beyond the 100m mph indication, that it wasn't even quivering. Photo taken in 1985 while passing through Hersham.
Excellent! :)

Were speeding drivers taking unnecessary risks? If an accident occurred when a train was exceeding lineside limits, would the driver be sacked, or is it acceptable to speed to make up time, for example, if delayed previously?
The front of Sectional Appendices in BR days used to have printed:

"Drivers of late running trains should endeavour to make up time as far as possible paying due regard to all speed restrictions."

And drivers were disciplined for speeding, it was just far harder to prove back then I'd imagine and tolerated more within reason.
 

Richard Scott

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Excellent! :)


The front of Sectional Appendices in BR days used to have printed:

"Drivers of late running trains should endeavour to make up time as far as possible paying due regard to all speed restrictions."

And drivers were disciplined for speeding, it was just far harder to prove back then I'd imagine and tolerated more within reason.
Seem to remember a retired driver upon seeing 50021 commented it was the last loco he drove before retirement, went through Maidenhead at 116 giving a two finger salute to the bloke with speed gun so guessing they did check sometime?
 

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When Rugby was being rebuilt and remodelled as part of the West Coast Route Modernisation, at certain stages there was a 20 mph limit in force due to the sharp curves of the temporary alignment, which swung from one side of the route to the other to avoid a flyover being rebuilt. Drivers began taking liberties with the speeds, so an inspector with a speed gun was sent out to check. Sure enough, he clocked several drivers at speeds nearer 40 mph. A rapid suspension of said drivers ensued, followed by disciplinary action. After that, word soon got round and the speeding quickly ceased.
 

43096

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Sometime in the early 1990s, I was doing a Regional Railways Class 31 from Liverpool Lime Street to Blackpool North, we were bombing along quite nicely on the Slow lines just north of Leyland and were going faster than a Virgin West Coast service on the Fast lines hauled by a Class 87
The 87 was only doing 25mph...
 

hexagon789

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Seem to remember a retired driver upon seeing 50021 commented it was the last loco he drove before retirement, went through Maidenhead at 116 giving a two finger salute to the bloke with speed gun so guessing they did check sometime?
They did, in steam days they would use the timings entered in the train registers of signal boxes to calculate the average speed between boxes and get drivers that way.

Certainly I've read a few accounts of footplate men being disciplined for 'excessive speed" though I don't recall any being dismissed for it
 

Gloster

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They did, in steam days they would use the timings entered in the train registers of signal boxes to calculate the average speed between boxes and get drivers that way.

Certainly I've read a few accounts of footplate men being disciplined for 'excessive speed" though I don't recall any being dismissed for it

Using the times recorded in train register is not very accurate due to the slight discrepancies caused by at what point of the train’s passing the signalman looked at the clock, small differences in the setting of the clocks, etc. Slight differences maybe, but they tot up, so only a whopping great excess would show up. It would probably only really have worked over a fairly long distance.

I have never heard of any drivers being sacked, although I wasn’t on the loco, but I have heard of drivers being reduced to local or shunting links. This could be temporary or permanent.
 

hexagon789

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Using the times recorded in train register is not very accurate due to the slight discrepancies caused by at what point of the train’s passing the signalman looked at the clock, small differences in the setting of the clocks, etc. Slight differences maybe, but they tot up, so only a whopping great excess would show up. It would probably only really have worked over a fairly long distance.
I agree but I've seen a few references to this being done in Britain.

The only accounts if how it was actually used against crew that I've read relate to US not British practice though so I can't add any more on that point.


I have never heard of any drivers being sacked, although I wasn’t on the loco, but I have heard of drivers being reduced to local or shunting links. This could be temporary or permanent.
That's what I've come across as well, demotion and temporary suspension but never dismissal
 
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