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Odd formations

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Alfie1014

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Then you had in the late 1980s when the 442s were being constructed using traction equipment from the 4-REPs formations there were some reformations including this a 5-TC (a 4-TC plus 4-REP restaurant car) with 2 x 73s for the motive power.

3000B9EC-C5F1-4739-B725-F9910EA50BEB.jpeg3000B9EC-C5F1-4739-B725-F9910EA50BEB.jpeg
 
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Trainfan2019

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On the subject of formations, back in the 70s/80s under British Rail, why did odd formations occur like the one in the example below:


Not my photo. Credit to Chris Beardsmore on Flickr

Is there any reason why trains were formed with mis-matched liveried carriages back in the olden days? I've seen loads of photos and videos with similar trains where the carriages don't match up and often wondered the reason(s) why.
 

Ribbleman

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53355 and 53812. The set was a regular on the Stalybridge-Stockport shuttle, and I travelled on it many times.

I heard a story that the Gloucester car was in works for asbestos removal and the procedure cost so much that it was decided not to do any others. An alternative take was that it was sent for overhaul in error, the decision having already been made to withdraw the class. Then, after work was completed, it was paired with a spare Cravens car. I’ve no idea if either version has any bearing in reality. Perhaps someone can clarify?
 

43096

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On the subject of formations, back in the 70s/80s under British Rail, why did odd formations occur like the one in the example below:


Not my photo. Credit to Chris Beardsmore on Flickr

Is there any reason why trains were formed with mis-matched liveried carriages back in the olden days? I've seen loads of photos and videos with similar trains where the carriages don't match up and often wondered the reason(s) why.
It's because some carriages had been through works for repaint and some hadn't. Formations weren't fixed for most loco-hauled stock back then. Whilst the HSTs were (usually) fixed formations where sets went to works all at the same time (but which didn't stop some becoming mixed livery), fixed formations for coaching stock didn't really come in until 1990/91 when InterCity made a concerted effort to make formations permanent as far as possible, as it allowed maintenance to be coordinated, cut down on shunting coaches in/out of sets and reduced the pool of spare vehicles required.
 

Helvellyn

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On the subject of formations, back in the 70s/80s under British Rail, why did odd formations occur like the one in the example below:


Not my photo. Credit to Chris Beardsmore on Flickr

Is there any reason why trains were formed with mis-matched liveried carriages back in the olden days? I've seen loads of photos and videos with similar trains where the carriages don't match up and often wondered the reason(s) why.
Aside from making me feel old with the "olden days" comment the reason was essentially that loco-hauled coaches were largely treated as single vehicles, with sets made up of required vehicle types rather than fixed formations. Sectorisation meant coaches started appearing in sector liveries, but whole rakes took time to appear.

In the early 1990s InterCity adopted fixed formations but by that time virtually all their coaches were in InterCity livery. It just meant whole rakes went to works together rather than individual coaches having to be marshalled up.
 

Trainfan2019

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Ah that's great, interesting to know about the reasons behind the mismatched carriages. Thanks for the info 43096 and Helvellyn.
 

nlogax

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Then you had in the late 1980s when the 442s were being constructed using traction equipment from the 4-REPs formations there were some reformations including this a 5-TC (a 4-TC plus 4-REP restaurant car) with 2 x 73s for the motive power.

Full-on Proustian rush seeing that photo, as if I'd been plunged right back to 1988. Superb stuff, thank you.
 

306024

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If my memory serves me correct ( it often doesn’t) i believe it was due to terrorist bomb damage.

According to Wikipedia:

Unit 302 244 was involved in an accident in 1972 with a lorry at a level crossing at Low Street railway station in Tilbury, after which it was decided to scrap the leading carriage, BDTC 75292. This was replaced with DTSO 77164, originally belonging to a Manchester-Bury Line Class 504. It remained like this until May 1983 when it acquired a spare BDTC, 75298, from withdrawn unit 302250.
 

Roger B

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Would have loved to have seen it in with 77164, but I only ever saw 302244 in its third formation (02/04/86 at LST, and a couple of times subsequently). It also had a fourth formation (briefly) from March to Sept '89 when it inherited 70201 from 302285 vice 70103.

Some units have had many different formations over the years. I think the record's held by 150141 with 7 (10 if you count repeats!) - unless anyone knows differently?

UnitFormationTo ServiceWithdrawnDate recordedPlace recordedRecorded notes
150 1415214157141
02/86​
mm/88​
27.05.1986Crewe
150 141521415725357141
mm/88​
mm/89​
All cars recorded previously
150 141521415220557141
mm/89​
02/91​
26.03.1990Birmingham New St3-Car with 52205
150 1415214157141
02/91​
mm/91​
23.02.1991Manchester Piccadilly2-Car
150 141521415722057141
mm/91​
mm/91​
18.09.1991Manchester Piccadilly3-Car with 57220 in centre
150 141521415721857141
mm/91​
mm/92​
16.11.1991Manchester Piccadilly3-Car with 57218 in centre
150 141521415224957141
mm/92​
mm/92​
01.04.1992Manchester Piccadilly3-Car with 52249 in centre
150 1415214157141
mm/92​
mm/93​
27.06.1992Manchester Piccadilly2-Car
150 141521415222557141
mm/93​
mm/94​
All cars recorded previously
150 1415214157141
mm/94​
15.04.1995Manchester Piccadilly2-Car
 
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bramling

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At one point in the 2000s there were a couple of odd 170 formations.

There was a 2-car formation made up with driving vehicles from 170101 and 170207, the former in MML/CT livery and the latter in One livery.

I seem to remember the centre vehicle from 170207 was used to lengthen one of the 2-car Anglia Railways to 3-car.

The remaining driving vehicles from 170101 and 207 were under accident repair.
 

norbitonflyer

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I recall a visit to Edinburgh in the early 70s when a lot of 3-car DMUs seemed to be formed by forming a driving trailer between two driving motor vehicles. Most of these formations involved two different classes - often three.

There is the (possibly apocryphal) story of a scratch dmu formation that was divided on arrival at Glasgow Central to form two outgoing services. The first unit got away fine, but it was only then that it was realised that the two cars that had led the train in, and were now left at the buffer stops, were both driving trailers........ (And in a similar vein, some time in the 1970s a manager was rumoured to have requisitioned the rear unit of an up Weymouth express at Woking to form a special to Alton. The up fast was thus blocked until a push-pull fitted 33 could be found to take the TC unit away.)

Long term hybrids have been formed by two ex-class 210 vehicles replacing vehicles in class 455s nos 5912 and 5913. The one in 5913 was modified to match the rest of the unit, and included components, (including the motors and bogies) from the vehicle it replaced (this was the one that was bombed by a concrete mixer lorry at Oxshott). The one in 5912 still has some features such as the rainstrips over the doors that mark it out as different, but the most obvious feature, the class 210-type windows, were replaced when the unit was refurbished some years ago.

Of course, the entire class 455/7 subclass are hybrid units, as they each incorporate a class 508 trailer.

Further back in time, the Southern Region (and Southern Railway before it) ran a large number of hybrid formations. Many 4SUB units were formed from pre-war wooden-bodied 3SUB units (most of which had been rebuilt from pre-grouping steam hauled or AC electric stock) by adding a trailer either from one of the old trailer units (also of ex-steam stock, but rarely of the same design or even originating pre-grouping company as the unit to which it was added) or a new Bulleid-type all steel* trailer, which looked even more incongruous. Most of these trailers were later incorporated into new all-steel 4SUB or 4EPB units.
Other hybrids were the result of accident damage or enemy action - a number of 2HALs were disbanded to replace damaged vehicles in 4LAVs and 2BILs, and five new driving trailers of 2HAL type were also built for this purpose.

*Actually, I am reminded that most augmentation trailers, and the first ten all-new 4SUBs, had traditional wood and canvas roofs. Only the body sides were steel
 
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Billysackboy

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Not 100% sure if this is what your looking for but I saw a 7 car 150/158 combo today (didn't catch the numbers sorry)
 

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Ken H

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Has anyone mentioned the Tadpole units on Tonbridge - Reading services? These were an EPB driving trailer and a Hastings driving motor and and trailer. The Hastings units were of a narrower profile than the EPB giving the nickname They were designated 3R or Cl 206.
Replaced with 165/166 from Thames trains.
 

hexagon789

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Has anyone mentioned the Tadpole units on Tonbridge - Reading services? These were an EPB driving trailer and a Hastings driving motor and and trailer. The Hastings units were of a narrower profile than the EPB giving the nickname They were designated 3R or Cl 206.
Replaced with 165/166 from Thames trains.
I thought they were broadly replaced by 119s and later some 101s before the Turbos?

Given the 4 of the 6 units were disbanded in 1979, one of the remaining two went to the Marshlink service, the other to Oxted and the four now spare EPB trailers then went into the 3T Class 204 units.
 

PHILIPE

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Not 100% sure if this is what your looking for but I saw a 7 car 150/158 combo today (didn't catch the numbers sorry)


2C65 0926 Exeter St Davids to Penzance
2E17 1350 Penzance to Exeter St Davids

158957
158769
150238

I suggest that GWR used their heads and provided additional capacity to cover for traincrew shortage cancellations which is something other TOCs fail to take onto account.
 

D6130

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Aside from making me feel old with the "olden days" comment the reason was essentially that loco-hauled coaches were largely treated as single vehicles, with sets made up of required vehicle types rather than fixed formations.
....with the exception of the Southern Region, whose Mark 1 (and pre-nationalisation) vehicles were usually made up into semi-permanent three or eight car sets - with the exception of loose vehicles (mainly BSKs), which were mainly used for the limited passenger accommodation on the early morning newspaper services from London. IIRC, the last use of three car sets (TSO-BSK-SO) was on the peak hour Reading-Redhill services into the mid/late 'seventies, whereas the eight car sets lasted into the late 'eighties on the peak hour London Bridge-East Grinstead/Uckfield services (predominantly 90mph vehicles) and Waterloo-Weymouth Quay Channel Islands boat trains, plus the Saturdays-only Brighton-Exeter train (predominantly 100mph vehicles).
 

Mat17

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Didn't Newton Heath have a class 100/105 set?
Yes they did. That set was the last containing both class types in passenger service and it nearly got preserved being asbestos stripped, but was vandalised before the NRM could find some space for it.

There were some interesting numbering anomalies in the ScotRail region in the late 80s, a mix bag of 101/107 sets with the same last three digits but with the correct class number on each end 1013XX on the 101 end and 1073XX on the 107 end. I believe one set was also numbered as a 107 set but due to swaps and changes it didn't actually contain a 107 vehicle.
 

TheHovisKid

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According to Wikipedia:

Unit 302 244 was involved in an accident in 1972 with a lorry at a level crossing at Low Street railway station in Tilbury, after which it was decided to scrap the leading carriage, BDTC 75292. This was replaced with DTSO 77164, originally belonging to a Manchester-Bury Line Class 504. It remained like this until May 1983 when it acquired a spare BDTC, 75298, from withdrawn unit 302250.
Appears on the cover of The Power of the 31s- was mystified by that for years
 

Neptune

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It certainly is an odd formation but don’t recall it entering service like that (especially as it’s 2 non toilet vehicles). I’m guessing that both sets were undergoing repainting at the time and they were coupled up whilst awaiting their respective partners return to keep them watertight (well as watertight as a pacer could be).

My first thought was that it was something to do with 144019 when it had a prang with a 150 at Holbeck many moons ago but I’m sure it was still in red/silver half moon livery at that stage and recall that it wasn’t out of traffic very long while the front end was hammered back into shape.

I’d date this photo around 2008?

That reminds me. Back in the early 90’s there were 2 orphan pacer vehicles, 1 vehicle from 141104 (at Neville Hill) and 1 from 142059 (Newton Heath). There was an idea to create a hybrid ’tadpole’ unit from them but it never happened. Both vehicles became their respective depot christmas trees and were eventually scrapped.
 

Neptune

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I have always wanted to see that! I have often wondered if the two pacer types could be coupled as a hybrid and whether they would be able to actually operate in service as such.
As I said, they never worked in service like that so they were probably only mechanically coupled.

I don’t see why they couldn’t actually operate as hybids as they have the same mechanicals but someone with more knowledge than me on the matter may know if it’s possible without any form of modification work.
 

Mat17

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I read somewhere that 144s and 143s had different riding heights, not sure if this is true, or to what extent the difference would be, so perhaps they'd be less compatible?
 

NewClee153

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In the early 1992, then new class 158s were in the leaf fall season failing to operate track circuits. Neville Hills solution for Transpennine workings was to misform six sets into hybrids with one class 158 vehicle and one class 156 vehicle. These were numbered 158601-603 & 158651-653 and lasted for about three months before being reformed back to the original formations.

Another odd misform was around the same time Network South East reformed around half a dozen class 302s by removing the motor vehicle and replacing it was a class 305 motor vehicle. Making a class 305 EMU that looked at both ends like it was a 302 as it had class 302 driving and trailer vehicles. From memory these were numbered 305594 - 305599 from memory.

172333 has been formed of 50338, 53333 & 79333 for years now, likewise 172338

 

61653 HTAFC

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I read somewhere that 144s and 143s had different riding heights, not sure if this is true, or to what extent the difference would be, so perhaps they'd be less compatible?
I'd heard that somewhere too. If such a hybrid had been required in BR days, I'm sure someone at RTC Derby would have been able to fashion some sort of conversion plate like those used on the hybrid 3-car 158s!

RTC= Railway Technical Centre (I think): basically the British Rail boffins.
 
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