Omicron variant and the measures implemented in response to it

[52290]

How does Jenny Harries explain that, if working from home is so important, Wales is doing no better than England?

This very question was asked by Sarah Montague on the World at One today to a female representative of the Welsh Government . After humming and aahing a bit she said that they really didn't know the answer but they were looking into it. She was adamant though, that without the extra measures the situation in Wales would be a lot worse. Hmmm!

 

[quantinghome]

This is the sort of thing for which actual data will only emerge a long way down the line, and underscores just how new and untried these drugs are.

The vaccines have gone through the standard testing and approvals process, but obviously at a much more rapid rate than normal.

Serious side effects are incredibly rare and have been well publicised in the media.

Four billion people have now had at least one vaccine shot. If there was a significant problem we would know about it.

We can be confident that the vaccines are safe.

More info here:

CORRECTED-Fact Check- COVID-19 vaccines are not experimental and they have not skipped trial stages  | Reuters

FAQs about COVID-19 vaccines | Vaccine Knowledge (ox.ac.uk)

These vaccines have been developed so quickly; how do I know that they have been tested properly?

The COVID-19 pandemic led to an international effort in vaccine development. The urgent need to control the pandemic, and save lives, meant that development processes were significantly accelerated. This does not mean that steps were skipped, or that safety was compromised.

More information about the speed of vaccine development is available here: Vaccines 101: How new vaccines are developed



Are the COVID-19 vaccines safe?

The COVID-19 vaccines currently approved have been thoroughly reviewed by the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency (the MHRA). The regulatory team have completed a full review of the safety information reported from the trials, which includes several months follow-up data from 23,000 people for the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine and 44,000 people for the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine.



What does safe mean?

What this means, is that the MHRA has reviewed all the information from the clinical trials of these vaccines. This would include reviewing all the side effects and medical conditions that people in the trials experienced.

The number of illnesses reported in the vaccinated group is compared with the control group to see whether the vaccine could be associated with an increase in any medical conditions. The rates of illness are also compared with the rate of those illnesses in the general population. For any severe illnesses reported, a specialist doctor involved in treating the person and an independent safety committee consider whether the illness could be associated to the vaccine.

All the information about adverse events (unexpected illnesses) reported during the trial has been provided to the regulators, and the safety profile of both the Oxford-AstraZeneca and the Pfizer BioNTech vaccines is similar to that of other vaccines.

 

[Eyersey468]

@Xenophon PCDGS I am sorry to hear about your wife's death.

 

[duncanp]

@Xenophon PCDGS I am sorry to hear about your wife's death.

I would echo the same sentiments.

The new regulations are in place until December 21st, so it is unlikely that they will change before your wife's funeral.

 

[brad465]

Evidently reducing socialising reduces spread. So does everyone being locked down indefinitely. But everything is not Covid and such actions can have serious medium & long-term consequences. And frankly "necessary" is totally up to interpretation and an odd remark.

Yes what might work for 3 months doesn't necessarily work for 2+ years.

The problem with these sorts of pronouncements are that they could cause real panic, and impact severely on venues that are hoping to use the Christmas season to recover from the past two years. I'm not sure whether there is enough evidence yet to justify frightening people off going out.

We are in real danger of a "boy who cried wolf" situation here. If someone really serious comes along, repeated knee-jerk false alarms, risk us ignoring it.

 

[21C101]

The vaccines have gone through the standard testing and approvals process, but obviously at a much more rapid rate than normal.

Serious side effects are incredibly rare and have been well publicised in the media.

Four billion people have now had at least one vaccine shot. If there was a significant problem we would know about it.

We can be confident that the vaccines are safe.

More info here:

CORRECTED-Fact Check- COVID-19 vaccines are not experimental and they have not skipped trial stages  | Reuters

FAQs about COVID-19 vaccines | Vaccine Knowledge (ox.ac.uk)

I'm not against vaccines in principle and have had this one twice (a little reluctantly admittedly).

No vaccine though is completely safe. I wonder how the deaths/seriously injured per jab compares with the rate of desths per passenger journey on the UK railway network?

 

[Horizon22]

I'm not against vaccines in principle and have had this one twice (a little reluctantly admittedly).

No vaccine though is completely safe. I wonder how the deaths/seriously injured per jab compares with the rate of desths per passenger journey on the UK railway network?

Not entirely sure how the two comparisons would be at all relevant?

 

[Yew]

Not entirely sure how the two comparisons would be at all relevant?

It's certainly a fun exercise trying to think of a suitable nondimensionalisation!

 

[quantinghome]

I'm not against vaccines in principle and have had this one twice (a little reluctantly admittedly).

No vaccine though is completely safe.

Like everything in life, safe does equal risk-free. Also there is no risk-free option here. Not being vaccinated has much much higher risks than getting jabbed.

 

[adc82140]

If you have a spare hour or so, have a read through this:

Public Health - Hansard - UK Parliament

Hansard record of the item : 'Public Health' on Tuesday 30 November 2021.

hansard.parliament.uk

It's the parliamentary debate this afternoon over the new regulations. It seems that once again the true opposition is from within the Conservative Party.

 

[21C101]

Like everything in life, safe does equal risk-free. Also there is no risk-free option here. Not being vaccinated has much much higher risks than getting jabbed.

That depends on your age with Coronavirus. It wouldn't take a particularly high severe side effect rate for the vaccine to be higher risk than Covid for children.

If you have a spare hour or so, have a read through this:

Public Health - Hansard - UK Parliament

Hansard record of the item : 'Public Health' on Tuesday 30 November 2021.

hansard.parliament.uk

It's the parliamentary debate this afternoon over the new regulations. It seems that once again the true opposition is from within the Conservative Party.

It is also, more effectively from the reform (ex Brexit) Party. Not because they have any chance of winning any seats but because if they get a few thousand votes in a marginal seat the Tories will lose it to Labour.

This has a moderating effect on the tory "wets" influence.

If Tice does well for the Brexit Reform party in this weeks byelection and runs Labour a close call for second place, it will I suspect mean that the mask edict in England is short lived.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

That depends on your age with Coronavirus. It wouldn't take a particularly high severe side effect rate for the vaccine to be higher risk than Covid for children.


It is also, more effectively from the reform (ex Brexit) Party. Not because they have any chance of winning any seats but because if they get a few thousand votes in a marginal seat the Tories will lose it to Labour.

This has a moderating effect on the tory "wets" influence.

If Tice does well for the Brexit Reform party in this weeks byelection and runs Labour a close call for second place, it will I suspect mean that the mask edict in England is short lived.

I'd prefer it if the the edicts affecting my life (and their withdrawal) were based on reasoned arguments / had a scientific basis. My already tenuous faith in 'the system' to work even remotely in my best interest (as a member of the public, not individually) has been shattered.

 

[21C101]

I'd prefer it if the the edicts affecting my life (and their withdrawal) were based on reasoned arguments / had a scientific basis. My already tenuous faith in 'the system' to work even remotely in my best interest (as a member of the public, not individually) has been shattered.

This, I think is going to be an increasing problem for our "governing class" long term. I and many others haven't forgotten parliament being hoodwinked into supporting the disastrous second Gulf War by the "45 minutes from Saddams WMD lie".

What has shocked me this time is the use of emergency powers to virtually D-Notice dissent from the media, which even Blair dared not do.

 

[Towers]

Like everything in life, safe does equal risk-free. Also there is no risk-free option here. Not being vaccinated has much much higher risks than getting jabbed.

The risk of Covid to those who are not deemed 'vulnerable' is very, very low indeed. The risks of the vaccines are difficult to fully quantify, as the usual timeframe over which any longer term side effects would be identified simply isn't there, and won't be for some time.

The arguments could flow on either side of this particular fence all day long, I think the only sensible way to move forwards is for individuals to make their own personal choices, as it should be. We can only hope that those in charge do not seek to remove or further diminish that personal choice. To be clear, nobody should be bullied into having a drug injected into them if they do not wish for that to happen.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

From the BBC.

No comment I can make would be acceptable on a family orientated web forum, so here it is without comment:

Covid: Greece to fine over-60s who refuse Covid-19 vaccine

Fines of €100 (£85) will be imposed from mid-January, with the money going towards healthcare.

www.bbc.co.uk

Covid: Greece to fine over-60s who refuse Covid-19 vaccine​

Greece is to make Covid vaccinations mandatory for people aged 60 and over.
Fines of €100 (£85) will be imposed at monthly intervals from mid-January on those who refuse, Prime Minister Kyriakos Mitsotakis said.
The money will go towards the Greek health system, which is struggling with a surge in hospital admissions.

About 63% of Greece's 11-million population is fully vaccinated, but data show more than 520,000 people over 60 are yet to get the jab.
"Greeks over the age of 60... must book their appointment for a first jab by January 16," the premier said in a statement to the cabinet.
"Their vaccination is henceforth compulsory."

The measure is still to be put to a parliamentary vote, he said, but lawmakers are widely expected to approve it.

While countries have made vaccines mandatory for health workers and other high-risk workers, Greece will become the first in the EU to target a specific age group.
Austria has announced that compulsory Covid vaccinations will start in February.

Syriza, Greece's main opposition party, called the new measures punitive and financially excessive.

Mr Mitsotakis said the decision had "tortured" him but he felt a "heavy responsibility in standing next to those most vulnerable, even if it might fleetingly displease them".
The virus has claimed more than 18,000 lives in Greece.

 

[21C101]

From the BBC.

No comment I can make would be acceptable on a family orientated web forum, so here it is without comment:

Covid: Greece to fine over-60s who refuse Covid-19 vaccine

Fines of €100 (£85) will be imposed from mid-January, with the money going towards healthcare.

www.bbc.co.uk

To think how close we came to ending up in a Federal state with places like this, that indulge such authoritarianism.

The mask business really annoys me but England is a still a million times better than many European states and even Australia/NZ who have been extraordinarily authoritarian.

 

[John Luxton]

To think how close we came to ending up in a Federal state with places like this, that indulge such authoritarianism.

The mask business really annoys me but England is a still a million times better than many European states and even Australia/NZ who have been extraordinarily authoritarian.

I must say I am amazed that the Australians and New Zealanders have put up with the way they have been treated by their governments. I wonder just how many countries in the world are close to open and violent revolt?

Perhaps it needs to happen as it will warn off other countries from trying it.

 

[eastdyke]

From the BBC.

No comment I can make would be acceptable on a family orientated web forum, so here it is without comment:

Covid: Greece to fine over-60s who refuse Covid-19 vaccine

Fines of €100 (£85) will be imposed from mid-January, with the money going towards healthcare.

www.bbc.co.uk

This is not only a total affront to humanity, it is arbitrary too.

Why 60?, why not 75,70,65,59¾?

Another example of divide and rule, 30 year olds may not complain 'because it does not affect them'. Oh but it will ......

Those in [temporary] power should be ashamed.

 

[takno]

To think how close we came to ending up in a Federal state with places like this, that indulge such authoritarianism.

About as near as they are to being a federal state without us, which is to say nowhere near. Nice try at shoehorning that particular hobbyhorse in though

 

[21C101]

I must say I am amazed that the Australians and New Zealanders have put up with the way they have been treated by their governments. I wonder just how many countries in the world are close to open and violent revolt?

Perhaps it needs to happen as it will warn off other countries from trying it.

We are lucky that we in England are governed by politicians elected by first past the post with constituencies not party list proportional representation.

Under first past the post a governing party can be brutally ejected. And a very senior politician can be ejected by his constituents. Even a prime minister can lose his seat. This concentrates their minds.

In contrast under party list PR the leading politicians are almost impossible to remove.

For example, if Nicola Sturgeon had lost her seat in the last Scottish Parliament election, she was also second on the SNP supplementary PR seat party list for Glasgow electoral region, making it almost impossible for her not to get a seat.

In contrast, if Boris Johnson loses his 7,200 majority at Uxbridge at the next election, he is out of Parliament and it would be near impossible for him to continue as Prime Minister, even if the Tories won a majority.

 

[bramling]

To think how close we came to ending up in a Federal state with places like this, that indulge such authoritarianism.

The mask business really annoys me but England is a still a million times better than many European states and even Australia/NZ who have been extraordinarily authoritarian.

Which is why we need to keep a very close eye on what *does* happen here, to ensure we don’t go the same way.

We’re already sailing a bit close to the wind.

 

[John Luxton]

We are lucky that we in England are governed by politicians elected by first past the post with constituencies not party list proportional representation.

Under first past the post a governing party can be brutally ejected. And a very senior politician can be ejected by his constituents. Even a prime minister can lose his seat. This concentrates their minds.

In contrast under party list PR the leading politicians are almost impossible to remove.

For example, if Nicola Sturgeon had lost her seat in the last Scottish Parliament election, she was also second on the SNP supplementary PR seat party list for Glasgow electoral region, making it almost impossible for her not to get a seat.

In contrast, if Boris Johnson loses his 7,200 majority at Uxbridge at the next election, he is out of Parliament and it would be near impossible for him to continue as Prime Minister, even if the Tories won a majority.

A good argument for keeping the status quo, and I had actually been in favour of PR and had not given circumstances that you describe much thought.

 

[brad465]

I can't share a link as I'm on my phone, but the BBC are reporting that some supermarkets, including Iceland and Tesco, won't be enforcing mask wearing this time, which is a sign they think it's not as tolerable now.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I can't share a link as I'm on my phone, but the BBC are reporting that some supermarkets, including Iceland and Tesco, won't be enforcing mask wearing this time, which is a sign they think it's not as tolerable now.

Here it is:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-59481287

Some supermarkets will not enforce mask wearing​

By Tom Espiner
Business reporter, BBC News
Some supermarkets have said they will not be enforcing new face mask rules brought back in after concerns about the Omicron coronavirus variant.
Supermarket chain Iceland told the BBC its staff would not ask customers to wear masks to stop them facing abuse.
Tesco, the largest UK supermarket chain, will just be putting signs up to remind customers about face mask rules, the BBC understands.
Aldi and Lidl are also understood to have no plans to challenge customers.
Supermarkets have a range of responses to the new rules, which were brought back in on Tuesday, but most are light touch.
Face coverings have become mandatory again in shops and on public transport in England as a precaution against the new Omicron variant of coronavirus.
Industry body The British Retail Consortium (BRC) has said it is up to police to enforce face mask rules, not retailers.
Sainsbury's said it will have "greeters and security guards at the front of our supermarkets" to remind people to wear masks.
Morrisons is expected to have staff checking face mask wearing at the front of the shops, and hand out masks to customers that have forgotten them.
Asda has also said it will hand out masks to customers which have forgotten to bring them.
Iceland boss Richard Walker told the BBC's Radio Four Today programme that it supported the reintroduction of face masks, but said it would be unfair to ask staff to confront people not wearing masks.
"They are already working under significant pressure, especially as we hit the busiest trading month of the year."
"I won't be putting my staff at any risk of confrontation or abuse," he said.
Mr Walker said in the first lockdown from March to May last year, incidents of verbal abuse dropped from more than 50 incidents a week to five a week after staff were told not to challenge customers.
Nigel Bourne, the owner of Sussex-based cookware retailer Rye Cookshop, tells the BBC face covering rules should "never have gone out in the first place".
He says he wishes the government would "be stronger on advertising" how people should wear masks, having experienced some customers wearing them wrongly.
The shop owner, based in Rye, East Sussex, says he hasn't had to call the police over people not wearing masks as no-one has been abusive. But he has had to ask people to leave his shop.
"It's hard work all the policing of it. We do it for ourselves and for other people. I do not want to work in a shop where people are not wearing their masks properly.
"If the law says you have got to wear it, wear it."

'Not the police'​

The BRC said in February this year that one retailer had reported that when reminding customers to shop alone, they were confronted and shouted at by an individual, who returned to the store later that afternoon "brandishing an axe [and] … threatening the store team with it".
A shopworker at another retailer asked a couple to put on face coverings. They left the store, only to return hours later when they began "coughing on staff, insisting they had coronavirus, which made the staff feel distressed."
Another said staff had been "threatened with a syringe… [because a shoplifter] was stealing cheese and said if I didn't get out of the way he would stab me."
Incidents of physical violence increased by two thirds at the time, the BRC time, with flashpoints mainly being around coronavirus rules.

When I was in Tesco this morning, they were playing the 'wear a mask' message over the public address. No door guard but I was there at a quiet time.

 

[westv]

I can't share a link as I'm on my phone, but the BBC are reporting that some supermarkets, including Iceland and Tesco, won't be enforcing mask wearing this time, which is a sign they think it's not as tolerable now.

That doesn't sound that much different to the last time masks were mandated in England.

 

[Bayum]

I just don’t get the need to increase antibodies in the immunocompetent, we appear to be completely disregarding everything we know about the human immune system.

Incidentally (and you’re probably aware already) but the immunocompromised are to be offered a second booster, I didn’t see anything about timeframes though.

Edit: @Towers beat me to it re the second booster.

It's more so that the antibodies are fresh and primed and able to deal with mutations/breakthrough infections in those that are susceptible. There's an increasing number of patients becoming poorly with COVID-19 and this then leads to breakthrough infections and causing severe illness. A poke and increase in antibody response has been shown (worldwide) to continue to reduce breakthrough infection and reduce the risk of any of these being serious.

 

[cactustwirly]

It's more so that the antibodies are fresh and primed and able to deal with mutations/breakthrough infections in those that are susceptible. There's an increasing number of patients becoming poorly with COVID-19 and this then leads to breakthrough infections and causing severe illness. A poke and increase in antibody response has been shown (worldwide) to continue to reduce breakthrough infection and reduce the risk of any of these being serious.

Just saying natural infection provides more protection against mutations/variants than the existing vaccines.

Also worth noting that antibodies are produced by the immune system in response to infection. A healthy immune system shouldn't need multiple booster jabs

 

[Towers]

From the BBC.

No comment I can make would be acceptable on a family orientated web forum, so here it is without comment:

Covid: Greece to fine over-60s who refuse Covid-19 vaccine

Fines of €100 (£85) will be imposed from mid-January, with the money going towards healthcare.

www.bbc.co.uk

Wow. Just wow. That is all.

Genuinely frightening times.

 

[Freightmaster]

Another example of divide and rule, 30 year olds may not complain 'because it does not affect them'. Oh but it will ......

First they came for the over 60s...

First they came ... - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

MARK

 

[david1212]

She's been well and truely put in her place by Johnson.

From the BBC live feed:

My thinking is that with the vaccinations already administered and bringing boosters forward Boris is gambling that in three weeks time the Omicron variant will not be spreading like the Kent variant was 12 months ago.

I'm sure as well as the NHS he has the treasury on his back who want to see as much tax raised by the end of the year as possible not business getting cancellations and reduced sales never mind pressure for f*****gh again.

Set against that £20 for each vaccine dose, or whatever the price is, and the costs to administer it I presume are a small proportion.

Come January if not before we will know fundamentally who was right and who was wrong.