Omicron variant and the measures implemented in response to it

[brad465]

I see UK government ministers are now even calling out the devolved nations for having a response that is far too heavy-handed:

(https://twitter.com/sajidjavid/status/1475887245227962375?s=21)

If it turns out that Sturgeon and Drakeford have unnecessarily closed businesses, harmed the economy, and curtailed the liberties of the people in their respective countries, I would like to think they would be forced to resign with immediate effect.

In the case of Sturgeon/the SNP, if that revelation came to being, then the Independence cause will be completely dead as well. "Vote for Independence, vote for loss of liberties for no apparent benefit other than to fulfil power-hungry desires."

Also if they were forced to resign because of going overboard, we might also be looking at at least half of European Governments being pressured into doing the same.

 

[bramling]

Or have their devolution taken away

I’ve thought for some while there’s certainly a case for removing pandemic planning from them - at least for Scotland and Wales (NI is more complex because of the need to consider what ROI are doing).

Three different responses across GB, and an element of willy-waving thrown in, has not served us well. There seems little to show that the different responses in Scotland and Wales have produced any benefit. The only real thing is that Sturgeon’s comms have generally been better than Johnson’s, though that isn’t saying much!

 

[backontrack]

I’ve thought for some while there’s certainly a case for removing pandemic planning from them - at least for Scotland and Wales (NI is more complex because of the need to consider what ROI are doing).

Three different responses across GB, and an element of willy-waving thrown in, has not served us well. There seems little to show that the different responses in Scotland and Wales have produced any benefit. The only real thing is that Sturgeon’s comms have generally been better than Johnson’s, though that isn’t saying much!

I don't know - to me, seeking to limit authoritarian policy by increasing Westminster centralisation seems inherently contradictory. Especially when Westminster are the ones trying to suppress our right to protest.

Much better to let Scotland's elected government take care of its pandemic planning. If it's deemed unsatisfactory by the populace, then not to worry, we have these things called general elections. (And maybe that should induce the English Tory and Labour parties to become invested in supporting workable opposition to Sturgeon in Holyrood. After all, it's not like Starmer for instance has made any effort to even recognise Scotland's existence in his approach to opposition.)

 

[Berliner]

I don't see why removing Devolution should be even remotely considered to be a good thing. Other than by people with a unionist agenda of course.

I'm assuming had Sturgeon not introduced restrictions recently but Boris had, then those saying devolution should be curtailed would still be saying that and would still be saying she was different for the sake of it? I don't like her most recent decisions much either, in fact I disagree with them and consider her to be over the top, but I'll never waiver in my support for independence and I will never agree that giving WM all the power and decision making is a good thing. Each nation of the UK is different, has different health services and different needs, so it's only right that the approach was allowed to be different. A lot of countries followed this model, Australia, NZ, Germany, Spain, Italy, Canada, USA..and on and on...all had different rules for different states/Provences/Cantons/Departments/Territories at some stage during this, or still do. There is nothing wrong with that and centralisation wouldn't have saved the day in any way, shape or form.

 

[LowLevel]

I would have hoped so, but I've met several people who have started off by making a point of standing over 2 metres away whilst talking, and 5 minutes later have been standing no more than one metre away, with their mask well and truly slipped. So no, you might get it, but a lot of people don't, and I say this because at least two of the people who I've seen behaving like this, are elderly with vulnerable health conditions.

Fwiw, I agree with all those who advocate having the vaccines and booster(s), and I also agree with those who say they want to get some pleasure out of life while they can. But I do think everyone owes it to everyone else to be careful as far as they can. I know too many people suffering in pain waiting for operations, who keep getting them cancelled because of Covid patients jumping the queue for hospital beds, and all too often they have Covid through carelessness.

Ahh, the joy of the hospital waiting list.

My 8 week wait turned into 2 years. That only because I paid several thousand pounds (which I had to borrow) for a surgeon who also practices on the NHS to do it privately. When he did do it, it turned out that there were complications that hadn't been known about that could have been very serious indeed.

I had precisely one generic letter from the NHS during that 2 year period that was to everyone on the waiting list for that whole department, and that was after over 18 months.

It was done privately within 4 weeks of my picking up the phone. With regard to the NHS being there for you - I want my money back.

What is "careful", incidentally?

As a train guard on Sprinter trains I have been routinely forced into close contact with large numbers of people in a small space throughout the whole affair, many of whom have made personal choices to be very drunk and lairy, which I've had no choice at all about. I can also assure you that Doris who wears her daft home made mask all the time and wags her finger about the young ones piling into night clubs has very few compulsions about breathing down my neck when I'm opening the train doors to try and be the first off.

I have no interest therefore in limiting my own activities because why should I? As it happens my personal preferences means that has consisted of no more than visiting mostly quiet pubs, the theatre, a zoo and the cinema to watch James Bond - but given my regular exposure to people of all types at work, and COVID is everywhere there, we have loads off as we speak, being careful would imply I should stay out of the way.

That's last year's game, I've had my vaccines, I wear a mask when required (regardless of personal opinions on effectiveness) and having had some very soul searching conversations with friends and family, some of whom spent most of last year locked up, have found them to be mostly like minded regarding life, and the small number who aren't I respect their choices and will see them on the other side or not, as the case may be.

 

[yorksrob]

One could argue where pandemic planning should sit, however I can't agree that devolution should be reversed. Unlike separatists who have an interest in trashing devolution (witness Swinney's recent protestations that the only way to "protect" the gains of devolution is to effectively destroy it by breaking up the country) I believe it is genuinely the way forward for Britain.

 

[21C101]

In the case of Sturgeon/the SNP, if that revelation came to being, then the Independence cause will be completely dead as well. "Vote for Independence, vote for loss of liberties for no apparent benefit other than to fulfil power-hungry desires."

Also if they were forced to resign because of going overboard, we might also be looking at at least half of European Governments being pressured into doing the same.

Governments doing it is one thing. Local authorities doing it is quite another.

 

[Mag_seven]

I think we can leave the topic of devolution to another thread in General Discussion if someone wants to start one.

In the meantime can we stick to discussing Omicron in this thread.

Thanks

 

[Shrop]

Ahh, the joy of the hospital waiting list.

My 8 week wait turned into 2 years. That only because I paid several thousand pounds (which I had to borrow) for a surgeon who also practices on the NHS to do it privately. When he did do it, it turned out that there were complications that hadn't been known about that could have been very serious indeed.

I had precisely one generic letter from the NHS during that 2 year period that was to everyone on the waiting list for that whole department, and that was after over 18 months.

It was done privately within 4 weeks of my picking up the phone. With regard to the NHS being there for you - I want my money back.

What is "careful", incidentally?

As a train guard on Sprinter trains I have been routinely forced into close contact with large numbers of people in a small space throughout the whole affair, many of whom have made personal choices to be very drunk and lairy, which I've had no choice at all about. I can also assure you that Doris who wears her daft home made mask all the time and wags her finger about the young ones piling into night clubs has very few compulsions about breathing down my neck when I'm opening the train doors to try and be the first off.

I have no interest therefore in limiting my own activities because why should I? As it happens my personal preferences means that has consisted of no more than visiting mostly quiet pubs, the theatre, a zoo and the cinema to watch James Bond - but given my regular exposure to people of all types at work, and COVID is everywhere there, we have loads off as we speak, being careful would imply I should stay out of the way.

That's last year's game, I've had my vaccines, I wear a mask when required (regardless of personal opinions on effectiveness) and having had some very soul searching conversations with friends and family, some of whom spent most of last year locked up, have found them to be mostly like minded regarding life, and the small number who aren't I respect their choices and will see them on the other side or not, as the case may be.

In respect of your predicament as a guard you have my sympathy, you really do, it's the drunk and lairy idiots who are responsible for a lot of the spread, you can do little to avoid them in your job.
My comment about being careful is directed at them, although unfortunately they're unlikely to hear it, and even less likely to take any notice. In theory yes, we should all be careful, and just because some people make life hard for others, that still shouldn't stop unfortunate recipients of their behaviour (like yourself), from doing what they can outside those situations, to not spread it on.
It is possible to catch Covid more than once, it's a flu after all, so I don't think the answer is to just carry on regardless, but at the same time we can't just all stop having a life. It's the balance that's so tricky, and thats what I mean by exercising care where you reasonably can. But I don't claim to have all the answers.

 

[21C101]

It is possible to catch Covid more than once, it's a flu after all, so I don't think the answer is to just carry on regardless, but at the same time we can't just all stop having a life. It's the balance that's so tricky, and thats what I mean by exercising care where you reasonably can. But I don't claim to have all the answers.

point of order, its a cold variant not a flu variant.

Pedant mode off..

I have over the last two years been often in all sorts of situations where I must have been exposed to the virus. (several kids at school and work at a major london Terminus) I wonder if little and often exposure has built up the immune system.

That said, I suspect I had it in December 2019 along with most people I know when that horrible coughing flu did the rounds which of course was not covid, oh no sir. I was only just recovered after battling on through it for three months (with just a couple of sick days listening to my chest wheezing), when everyone got locked down.

Told the nurse about it when having my retina scanned earlier in the year. She said 100% that was Covid, it was on the loose by then.

Doing what I do I always thought I would be among the first to go down with any plague that hit. My circumstances mean as soon as it arrives at Heathrow and onto the Piccadilly line, I would get it in short order.

 

[Smidster]

To put it another way, how many times in recent weeks have you been close to someone else, in a pub, restaurant, concert, football match, darts game (there are appalling scenes at televised matches), at work or in someone else's house (and the list goes on)? Now imagine, if they had been smoking a cigarette, then would you have been able to smell it in that situation? If the answer is yes, then you've been vulnerable to catching Covid. You may have got away with it, but you've been at risk.

Sorry I feel the need to call this out - I will occasionally watch the darts at this time of year (though not so much this year) and really struggle to see the "appalling scenes" you describe - It is an audience of people who have probably had one (or several) too many to drink having a good time. I will admit they sometimes chant things that are not in good taste but having a decent number of people in a venue singing and shouting is not "appalling"

I also completely agree with the earlier post from Huntergreed about life being for living - The main lesson from the last two years for me is about how much I have wasted my life to this point (early 30s)...I look back now at all the opportunities I have wasted and experiences that I will likely never have due to being caught up in worrying about things that in the grand scheme really don't matter a jot. Sure, I got my education and a decent job but frankly what is the point of that if you don't have anything beyond that - if you have never known love or looked beyond your immediate horizon?

I am well aware that there isn't anything to be done about the past but with every passing day that this goes on the time remaining to change things ticks away and it will very soon be too late to do anything about it.

The simple fact is that each and every one of us is going to be exposed to Covid on a frequent basis just as we are exposed to any number of potentially harmful things as we go about our lives - As with those other risks we can take mitigations to reduce the potential harms (e.g. vaccines) but the risk will never be zero and that is OK but your goal in life should be to enjoy what time you have and not exist to avoid exposure to a virus that you are vaccinated against and, for the vast vast majority, is unlikely to be more serious than a heavy cold.

 

[takno]

In respect of your predicament as a guard you have my sympathy, you really do, it's the drunk and lairy idiots who are responsible for a lot of the spread, you can do little to avoid them in your job.
My comment about being careful is directed at them, although unfortunately they're unlikely to hear it, and even less likely to take any notice. In theory yes, we should all be careful, and just because some people make life hard for others, that still shouldn't stop unfortunate recipients of their behaviour (like yourself), from doing what they can outside those situations, to not spread it on.
It is possible to catch Covid more than once, it's a flu after all, so I don't think the answer is to just carry on regardless, but at the same time we can't just all stop having a life. It's the balance that's so tricky, and thats what I mean by exercising care where you reasonably can. But I don't claim to have all the answers.

It sounds like you're trying to blame Covid on your regular list of hobby horses and people who annoy you in life. There's really no evidence to suggest that alcohol has much of anything to do with it, beyond some rather prurient assumptions about what the lower classes get up to which are being made by people like yourself in government.

I do however have to take you to task on your statement that Covid is just a flu. It isn't - it's a relatively novel Coronavirus, which has rather different properties. One of the key differences, particularly at this stage, is that it's much much more transmissible. If somebody is within a few metres of you indoors, or outdoors, mask or not, then there is a possibility of you catching it. Standing close to people will increase those chances, loosely-fitting face rags won't affect them. Overall your chances of leaving the house and completely avoiding it are zero, whatever restrictions are put in place.

 

[jumble]

The figures are all over the place at the moment because of the Christmas holidays, which will cause a delay in people taking tests, and also a delay in reporting them.

This situation will only stabilise after the new year, which is why the government were absolutely right to wait and see how the figures turn out before surrendering to SAGE emotional blackmail and ordering increased protections deciding what action to take next.

The other issue affecting the figures is a shortage of lateral flow tests.

This will cause the number of cases to fall because people are not going to use up their remaining test kits by getting tested unless they are ill with symptoms which is, er, what we should have been doing all along.

I can't help wondering if the government is deliberately reducing the supply of lateral flow test kits, slowly but surely, in order to gently nudge the figures in the downward direction.

I disagree

The NHS website explicitly says people should not be using LFT if they have symptoms
If you have symptoms of COVID-19, you need a different test called a PCR test

Who can get a free COVID-19 rapid lateral flow test

Find out who can get a free COVID-19 rapid lateral flow test.

www.nhs.uk

 

[VauxhallandI]

View attachment 107869

Seconded

 

[Baxenden Bank]

It sounds like you're trying to blame Covid on your regular list of hobby horses and people who annoy you in life. There's really no evidence to suggest that alcohol has much of anything to do with it, beyond some rather prurient assumptions about what the lower classes get up to which are being made by people like yourself in government.

I do however have to take you to task on your statement that Covid is just a flu. It isn't - it's a relatively novel Coronavirus, which has rather different properties. One of the key differences, particularly at this stage, is that it's much much more transmissible. If somebody is within a few metres of you indoors, or outdoors, mask or not, then there is a possibility of you catching it. Standing close to people will increase those chances, loosely-fitting face rags won't affect them. Overall your chances of leaving the house and completely avoiding it are zero, whatever restrictions are put in place.

Regarding the possibiities to spread or catch 'it', I found this the other day:


Source University of Minnesota, Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy

Editor's Note: Part 1 of a two-part commentary explains the differences in cloth face coverings and surgical masks, the science of respiratory protection, and the hierarchy of disease controls. Part 2, to be published tomorrow, will outline what makes a good mask study and why so many fail.

Dr Brosseau is a national expert on respiratory protection and infectious diseases and a research consultant with the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy (CIDRAP) at the University of Minnesota (UMN). Dr Ulrich is a UMN assistant professor in the Division of Environmental Health Sciences and a CIDRAP researcher. Dr Escandón is a physician and infectious diseases researcher in the Division of Infectious Diseases and International Medicine at UMN and also collaborates on research with CIDRAP. Cory Anderson is a graduate research assistant with CIDRAP. Dr Osterholm is CIDRAP director and Regents Professor at UMN.

 

[Yew]

In respect of your predicament as a guard you have my sympathy, you really do, it's the drunk and lairy idiots who are responsible for a lot of the spread, you can do little to avoid them in your job.

Could you provide some evidence to back up your assertion that the "drunk and lairy idiots" are responsible for spread?

My comment about being careful is directed at them, although unfortunately they're unlikely to hear it, and even less likely to take any notice. In theory yes, we should all be careful, and just because some people make life hard for others, that still shouldn't stop unfortunate recipients of their behaviour (like yourself), from doing what they can outside those situations, to not spread it on.

Why should we focus on not spreading a mild virus when we have high levels of population immunity. We take no such actions for any of the other circulating human coronaviruses. Perhaps a case could be made for such actions in an immunonaive population, but it's much more unreasonable when we have 95% antibody prevalence.

It is possible to catch Covid more than once, it's a flu after all, so I don't think the answer is to just carry on regardless, but at the same time we can't just all stop having a life. It's the balance that's so tricky, and thats what I mean by exercising care where you reasonably can. But I don't claim to have all the answers.

If it's "just a flu after all" why should we treat it any differently to flu, now that we have effective vaccines and treatments?

Regarding the possibiities to spread or catch 'it', I found this the other day:

View attachment 107881
Source University of Minnesota, Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy

That just shows how useless they are, that surgical mask is going to do nothing on a 9hr flight across the Atlantic.

No matter what abstract filtration studies show, the reality is that high-quality randomised control trials on real humans have yet to show statistically significant effects.

 

[Simon11]

Regarding the possibiities to spread or catch 'it', I found this the other day:

View attachment 107881
Source University of Minnesota, Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy

Thanks for sharing, very interesting table to analyse. Have I missed it. What is the distance between each person?

There are lots of things that we should consider dropping, like wearing masks in supermarkets as contact with other people will be less than five minutes.

There are also things we should improve, like moving away from a cloth mask to a proper mask when in contact with other people for at least 30 minutes (e.g. trains unfortunately, on busy services).

 

[jkkne]

I disagree

The NHS website explicitly says people should not be using LFT if they have symptoms
If you have symptoms of COVID-19, you need a different test called a PCR test

Who can get a free COVID-19 rapid lateral flow test

Find out who can get a free COVID-19 rapid lateral flow test.

www.nhs.uk

The OH has omicron symptoms and is currently unable to get a PCR test (either home delivery or walk in).

She works in a face to face role within justice, She has been told to stay off work until she has a PCR result back which will no doubt be a little wait when she eventually can get one. Luckily her employer (the Civil Service) are fairly laid back and she'll get full pay to sit at home and wait (albeit she's a bit off colour). I really feel for those who don't get sick pay or those self employed who are stuck in this testing loop.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Thanks for sharing, very interesting table to analyse. Have I missed it. What is the distance between each person?

There are lots of things that we should consider dropping, like wearing masks in supermarkets as contact with other people will be less than five minutes.

There are also things we should improve, like moving away from a cloth mask to a proper mask when in contact with other people for at least 30 minutes (e.g. trains unfortunately, on busy services).

I've downloaded the full article as a pdf - attached below.

 

[johnnychips]

I disagree

The NHS website explicitly says people should not be using LFT if they have symptoms
If you have symptoms of COVID-19, you need a different test called a PCR test

Who can get a free COVID-19 rapid lateral flow test

Find out who can get a free COVID-19 rapid lateral flow test.

www.nhs.uk

The symptoms of Omicron are not the same as the three symptoms of ‘classic’ COVID. I had a bit of a runny nose and sneezing at Xmas weekend which I would in the past have put down to a mild cold, and ignored. However, I took a LFT to day and it was positive. I am sure many people are taking tests when they just have a ‘cold’.

 

[island]

I disagree

The NHS website explicitly says people should not be using LFT if they have symptoms
If you have symptoms of COVID-19, you need a different test called a PCR test

Which you can't get at the moment in England.

 

[Shrop]

Could you provide some evidence to back up your assertion that the "drunk and lairy idiots" are responsible for spread?

Are you seriously suggesting that people who breathe/shout/sing etc into other people's faces don't increase the risk of spread in comparison with those who keep further apart and behave more quietly? Perhaps you could provide some evidence to back up your counter-assertion?

Why should we focus on not spreading a mild virus when we have high levels of population immunity.

Ah yes, here's a pointer to your views, it seems you don't think it's worth trying to contain it. Let me just say that I'm not here to argue, I'll just reiterate my earlier comment that I know a number of people who are in pain awaiting operations etc, but they keep getting their hospital places taken by people with Covid. I also reiterate that I DON'T suggest that people put their whole lives on hold. You might be lucky enough not to be in pain and waiting for an operation, but please don't just take up a contrary position for the sake of it. Yes, it might not be exactly like flu, but it's not that different. I don't recall people deliberately coughing over others in pre-Covid days just to create a herd immunity, it was never really wrong to expect that someone with a cough or cold should take care where reasonably possible, not to spread it to others. After all, while you may be young and fit enough to recover from Omicron (or whatever), others who you pass it on to might not be.

 

[yorkie]

Yes, it might not be exactly like flu, but it's not that different.

If anything Sars-CoV-2 is going the same way as HCoV-OC43 and appears to be an inherently milder virus than influenza strains; it's just that our immunity to Sars-CoV-2 is not yet at the level of immunity we have with existing HCoVs. The virus is quite possibly going to further adapt to become even more similar to existing HCoVs too.

I don't recall people deliberately coughing over others in pre-Covid days just to create a herd immunity

I don't think anyone is suggesting this? I think you are confused about herd immunity, but we are heading for a state of endemic equilibrium which we already have with many other viruses.

it was never really wrong to expect that someone with a cough or cold should take care where reasonably possible, not to spread it to others. After all, while you may be young and fit enough to recover from Omicron (or whatever), others who you pass it on to might not be.

We need to get away from the idea that anyone can prevent a virus being passed onto someone else, and we need to get away from the idea that anyone should feel guilty.

If anyone is in a vulnerable group they really ought to seriously be considering getting vaccinated and if they do not feel vaccination is sufficient for them, then any such individual has the option to wear a highly effective tight fitting FFP3 mask (which are specifically designed to filter aerosol particles) if they wish to do so.

The onus us in an individual to take precautions, not others. Everyone is going to be exposed to Sars-CoV-2; it is not a matter of "if" but when, and yes it will still happen even if precautions are taken. The vast majority of exposures will result in either no symptoms at all (an infection may or may not occur) or extremely mild symptoms. Exposure is inevitable for us all and we all need to accept that fact.

 

[Shrop]

It sounds like you're trying to blame Covid on your regular list of hobby horses and people who annoy you in life. There's really no evidence to suggest that alcohol has much of anything to do with it, beyond some rather prurient assumptions about what the lower classes get up to which are being made by people like yourself in government.

It sounds like you just want an argument without trying to consider the points raised. Sorry, but being this negative doesn't really warrant any further comment. If you want to be constructive, then okay.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

It sounds like you just want an argument without trying to consider the points raised. Sorry, but being this negative doesn't really warrant any further comment. If you want to be constructive, then okay.

You said:

In respect of your predicament as a guard you have my sympathy, you really do, it's the drunk and lairy idiots who are responsible for a lot of the spread, you can do little to avoid them in your job.

It seems reasonable for people to ask you of proof of this astounding scientific revelation. How much is 'a lot' - 25%, 50%, 75% of all cases?

 

[Yew]

Are you seriously suggesting that people who breathe/shout/sing etc into other people's faces don't increase the risk of spread in comparison with those who keep further apart and behave more quietly? Perhaps you could provide some evidence to back up your counter-assertion?

Perhaps that comparison is accurates, but that's not what you said. You said:

it's the drunk and lairy idiots who are responsible for a lot of the spread,

Whereas I would argue that based on current data, it would be schoolchildren who are responsible for "a lot" of the spread, and whilst they may be lairy, that should hopefully not be drunk!

Ah yes, here's a pointer to your views, it seems you don't think it's worth trying to contain it. Let me just say that I'm not here to argue, I'll just reiterate my earlier comment that I know a number of people who are in pain awaiting operations etc, but they keep getting their hospital places taken by people with Covid.

Perhaps if we had removed restrictions more quickly, and allowed more spread over the summer when respiratory viruses are naturally attenuated by different behaviours, we would be in a better position now for those awaiting operations.

You might be lucky enough not to be in pain and waiting for an operation, but please don't just take up a contrary position for the sake of it.

I'm not taking up a contrary position "just for the sake of it" I'm taking it because I object to restrictions being placed on my life indefinitely, without clear cost-benefit analyses or an defined endpoint.

I don't recall people deliberately coughing over others in pre-Covid days just to create a herd immunity, it was never really wrong to expect that someone with a cough or cold should take care where reasonably possible, not to spread it to others.

I don't recall ever suggesting such a thing, I suggest we go back to life as per pre-2020, "Catch it, kill it, bin it".

After all, while you may be young and fit enough to recover from Omicron (or whatever), others who you pass it on to might not be.

Indeed, but are you suggesting that we permanently limit our lives to stop certain people from ever getting a virus that is in widespread circulation around the world? I'm not sure that would even be possible. Elimination is certainly not unless we have a new vaccine that provides convincing sterilising immunity.

The fact of the matter is that we have widespread distribution of highly effective vaccines, and treatments both pre-hospital and in hospital. We need to start treating this as we do other cold and flu viruses, and returning to living our lives.

 

[Shrop]

The onus us in an individual to take precautions, not others. Everyone is going to be exposed to Sars-CoV-2; it is not a matter of "if" but when, and yes it will still happen even if precautions are taken. The vast majority of exposures will result in either no symptoms at all (an infection may or may not occur) or extremely mild symptoms. Exposure is inevitable for us all and we all need to accept that fact.

Have I understood this correctly? If there is this inevitability, then is there any point in vaccinations or mask wearing? Is the only point to prevent the NHS from getting overwhelmed all in one go?

 

[Yew]

Have I understood this correctly? If there is this inevitability, then is there any point in vaccinations or mask wearing? Is the only point to prevent the NHS from getting overwhelmed all in one go?

That was the argument behind "three weeks to flatten the curve" way back in March 2020. Since then I feel some people have lost sight of that, due to Johnsons counterfeit-churchillian rhetoric about "defeating the virus"

 

[Shrop]

Perhaps that comparison is accurates, but that's not what you said. You said:

Whereas I would argue that based on current data, it would be schoolchildren who are responsible for "a lot" of the spread, and whilst they may be lairy, that should hopefully not be drunk!



Perhaps if we had removed restrictions more quickly, and allowed more spread over the summer when respiratory viruses are naturally attenuated by different behaviours, we would be in a better position now for those awaiting operations.


I'm not taking up a contrary position "just for the sake of it" I'm taking it because I object to restrictions being placed on my life indefinitely, without clear cost-benefit analyses or an defined endpoint.


I don't recall ever suggesting such a thing, I suggest we go back to life as per pre-2020, "Catch it, kill it, bin it".


Indeed, but are you suggesting that we permanently limit our lives to stop certain people from ever getting a virus that is in widespread circulation around the world? I'm not sure that would even be possible. Elimination is certainly not unless we have a new vaccine that provides convincing sterilising immunity.

The fact of the matter is that we have widespread distribution of highly effective vaccines, and treatments both pre-hospital and in hospital. We need to start treating this as we do other cold and flu viruses, and returning to living our lives.

Some of what you say I agree with, and if we were discussing this over a beer then it could be interesting, but I do think you've not really understood, nor particularly tried to understand my points. I don't claim to be all that eloquent and of course it's possible to dissect some of my comments, but just out of interest, here's one for you ...

If everyone in the world was prepared to stock up with provisions and then isolate for 3 weeks, with the only interactions being for life saving purposes whilst fully masked and protected, would Covid then vanish, since those who already have it would develop immunity, and everyone else wouldn't then catch it? Just a thought ...

 

[Yew]

If everyone in the world was prepared to stock up with provisions and then isolate for 3 weeks, with the only interactions being for life saving purposes whilst fully masked and protected, would Covid then vanish, since those who already have it would develop immunity, and everyone else wouldn't then catch it? Just a thought ...

In a hypothetical where this was done perfectly everywhere, maybe, however we'd need to isolate families too, as it could spread around the family.

In practical land, there's no chance we could do this worldwide, and doing it domestically would fall down the moment we opened the borders.

We'd also have to consider animal reservoirs, as there have been cases in pets and livestock.