• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Ormskirk and Kirkby

Status
Not open for further replies.

Gathursty

Established Member
Joined
31 May 2011
Messages
2,517
Location
Wigan
When you enter Ormskirk or Kirkby station, it seems that the Northern part of it is off to a remote part of the station, way away from the entrance. Was this intentionally planned when they split the track in two or just a coincidence that the Northern part of Kirkby is hidden under the bridge and in Ormskirk, you turn right and keep on walking instead of Merseyrail which is conveniently right in front of you at both stations?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Gloster

Established Member
Joined
4 Sep 2020
Messages
8,290
Location
Up the creek
Random thoughts from someone who doesn’t know the area.

Were the platforms extended when the alterations were made? Were the Preston and Wigan lines at risk of closure when the work was done?

There might be some logic in the arrangement if the majority of passengers are heading towards Liverpool: they can hop straight on and you reduce the likelihood of a passenger getting the wrong train.

Or maybe it is just a case of Merseyside PTE, or whoever was responsible, only considering their passengers.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,541
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
When you enter Ormskirk or Kirkby station, it seems that the Northern part of it is off to a remote part of the station, way away from the entrance. Was this intentionally planned when they split the track in two or just a coincidence that the Northern part of Kirkby is hidden under the bridge and in Ormskirk, you turn right and keep on walking instead of Merseyrail which is conveniently right in front of you at both stations?

The Merseyrail service is what most people want, therefore it makes sense to have done that. At the point of splitting I suspect it was probably believed that the "stub" diesel service would not last many more years.

It was done at Southport too - the diesel service for many years used the very end platform with its own access from the car park not through Merseyrail's ticket barriers.
 

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
17,867
Location
Airedale
A little online research to refresh my memory:
Ormskirk station building seems to be close to the centre of the platform, but of course Merseyrail needs 3/4 of it.
Kirkby station building was on the Wigan-bound side of the line, and the Northern platform is (on the site of) the original Liverpool-bound platform; the Merseyrail part, station building and car park are all new build. I imagine there were practical and cost reasons for the decision.
 

S&CLER

Member
Joined
11 Jan 2020
Messages
785
Location
southport
Ormskirk needs room for a 6-car Merseyrail formation of course (though the old emu bay only had room for 5 cars, hence the existence of 2-car sets among the old LMS units). The limiting factor is the Derby Street bridge.

It may be of interest that Ormskirk has both a Station Approach (the existing entrance) and a Station Road, which is on the other side, off Burscough Road. Nowadays Station Road just leads to a light industrial area, with no public access to the station. Clearly the down side building was the original station entrance, as Harrison and Sale's 1849 map and guide to the East Lancashire Railway suggests; it was on the town centre side, and is obviously the older building. The present station building on the up side looks Edwardian in date. Electrification reached Ormskirk in 1912, having taken 2 years to bridge the gap from Maghull, so it may date from around that time. It used to puzzle me in the 1950s, when changing to a Preston train at Ormskirk, that there was an unused ticket office on the down side. Though I have lived in the area for much of my life, I cannot recall ever seeing the down side building from the outside, or even a photo of it. There was a Rainford bay as well, now under the car park.
 

Djgr

Established Member
Joined
30 Jul 2018
Messages
1,641
The Merseyrail service is what most people want, therefore it makes sense to have done that. At the point of splitting I suspect it was probably believed that the "stub" diesel service would not last many more years.

It was done at Southport too - the diesel service for many years used the very end platform with its own access from the car park not through Merseyrail's ticket barriers.
I know for a fact that the arrangement at Southport was done at the specific request of one of the predecessors of Northern.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,541
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
I know for a fact that the arrangement at Southport was done at the specific request of one of the predecessors of Northern.

Interesting - I always assumed it was Merseyrail Electrics Ltd who didn't want to deal with their tickets etc without being paid for it! I wonder why they wanted it? Did they want the ticket commission from people not using ME's ticket office and just paying on board?

It may be of interest that Ormskirk has both a Station Approach (the existing entrance) and a Station Road, which is on the other side, off Burscough Road. Nowadays Station Road just leads to a light industrial area, with no public access to the station. Clearly the down side building was the original station entrance, as Harrison and Sale's 1849 map and guide to the East Lancashire Railway suggests; it was on the town centre side, and is obviously the older building. The present station building on the up side looks Edwardian in date. Electrification reached Ormskirk in 1912, having taken 2 years to bridge the gap from Maghull, so it may date from around that time. It used to puzzle me in the 1950s, when changing to a Preston train at Ormskirk, that there was an unused ticket office on the down side. Though I have lived in the area for much of my life, I cannot recall ever seeing the down side building from the outside, or even a photo of it. There was a Rainford bay as well, now under the car park.

The roads either side are Station Approach and Railway Approach. Station Road runs at 90 degrees to the railway.

I expect like most two-side-platformed stations you could access it from both sides.
 

Djgr

Established Member
Joined
30 Jul 2018
Messages
1,641
Ormskirk Station by Mwmbwls, on Flickr

For the benefit of chums unfamiliar with what we are talking about. This is Ormskirk Station - the original building on the left is now a dentist IIRC.
It is probably worth pointing out from the photo that the distance between the front of the Northern train and the rear of the Merseyrail train is not actually that great.
 

Cheshire Scot

Established Member
Joined
24 Jul 2020
Messages
1,331
Location
North East Cheshire
It is probably worth pointing out from the photo that the distance between the front of the Northern train and the rear of the Merseyrail train is not actually that great.
if it was being done today standards would probably require a much greater distance between the two buffer stops.
 

Djgr

Established Member
Joined
30 Jul 2018
Messages
1,641
if it was being done today standards would probably require a much greater distance between the two buffer stops.
The photo also accurately captures how Northern is perceived in the Liverpool area relative to Merseyrail
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,541
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Ormskirk Station by Mwmbwls, on Flickr

For the benefit of chums unfamiliar with what we are talking about. This is Ormskirk Station - the original building on the left is now a dentist IIRC.

I don't have a Flickr account, so with regard to the "anti dazzle screen" (sheet steel) that's been there since the 1990s, and I'd figure to stop drivers thinking they're about to have a head-on with a train coming the other way.

Intriguing that the buildings are of a completely different style - the main one (today's) is in keeping with the rest of Merseyrail, the other one isn't. Limestone (?) faced buildings are very unusual in Ormskirk, it's mostly a red-brick and red sandstone place - that building would look more in place in Lancaster or other parts of North Lancs.
 

Bevan Price

Established Member
Joined
22 Apr 2010
Messages
7,320
And for anyone who does not remember the south end bay at Ormskirk, this was taken in 1968:
 

Attachments

  • mx019t19_Ormskirk_300368a.jpg
    mx019t19_Ormskirk_300368a.jpg
    448.7 KB · Views: 113

urbophile

Established Member
Joined
26 Nov 2015
Messages
2,059
Location
Liverpool
A little online research to refresh my memory:
Ormskirk station building seems to be close to the centre of the platform, but of course Merseyrail needs 3/4 of it.
Kirkby station building was on the Wigan-bound side of the line, and the Northern platform is (on the site of) the original Liverpool-bound platform; the Merseyrail part, station building and car park are all new build. I imagine there were practical and cost reasons for the decision.
Clarification: the original station building at Kirkby was on the same side of the line as the present one, but across the road, so nearest to the current Wigan-bound platform. It wasn't adjacent to the then Wigan-bound platform, which is now unused or maybe demolished (I can't remember). It wasn't architecturally impressive being a simple brick box, in fact not unlike the Merseyrail shack erected in the 1970s-80s.
 

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
17,867
Location
Airedale
Clarification: the original station building at Kirkby was on the same side of the line as the present one, but across the road, so nearest to the current Wigan-bound platform. It wasn't adjacent to the then Wigan-bound platform, which is now unused or maybe demolished (I can't remember). It wasn't architecturally impressive being a simple brick box, in fact not unlike the Merseyrail shack erected in the 1970s-80s.
OK thanks, I misinterpreted the OS 25inch map - looking again, there seems to have been a building at road level which was later demolished, but again on the Liverpool-bound platform, plus a shelter on the platform itself.
 

Djgr

Established Member
Joined
30 Jul 2018
Messages
1,641
Clarification: the original station building at Kirkby was on the same side of the line as the present one, but across the road, so nearest to the current Wigan-bound platform. It wasn't adjacent to the then Wigan-bound platform, which is now unused or maybe demolished (I can't remember). It wasn't architecturally impressive being a simple brick box, in fact not unlike the Merseyrail shack erected in the 1970s-80s.
I think the current "shack" was built in conjunction with electrification to Kirkby i.e. late 1970s
 

L+Y

Member
Joined
4 Jul 2011
Messages
450
Were the platforms extended when the alterations were made?
Can't answer for Kirkby, but at Ormskirk the answer is yes- the platform was extended northwards in 1970 for Preston trains. It now covers what was the junction for the Skelmersdale branch.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,541
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Can't answer for Kirkby, but at Ormskirk the answer is yes- the platform was extended northwards in 1970 for Preston trains. It now covers what was the junction for the Skelmersdale branch.

That I didn't know, I'd always assumed there was a bay on the current car park for that. Though in retrospect I should really have known better as I have a print of a painting showing the "Skem Jazzer" in the current Merseyrail platform! :)

Edit: this photo seems to suggest it did have a bay, though the platform may have been extended slightly afterwards as it now fits a 4-car Pacer formation (and I think 4x23m, I half recall having seen a 4 car 156 formation in there but I might be wrong).

Annotation-2020-09-06-125509.jpg


Photo from this article: https://tonyrobertson.mycouncillor.org.uk/2020/09/12/remember-the-skem-jazzer-train/
 

urbophile

Established Member
Joined
26 Nov 2015
Messages
2,059
Location
Liverpool
Can't answer for Kirkby, but at Ormskirk the answer is yes- the platform was extended northwards in 1970 for Preston trains. It now covers what was the junction for the Skelmersdale branch.
Yes:at Kirkby the eastbound platform (and track) was abandoned; the existing westbound (Liverpool) platform became the terminus for Wigan and Manchester bound trains, and a new platform was constructed west of the overbridge as the terminus for the Merseyrail electrics.
 

S&CLER

Member
Joined
11 Jan 2020
Messages
785
Location
southport
That I didn't know, I'd always assumed there was a bay on the current car park for that. Though in retrospect I should really have known better as I have a print of a painting showing the "Skem Jazzer" in the current Merseyrail platform! :)

Edit: this photo seems to suggest it did have a bay, though the platform may have been extended slightly afterwards as it now fits a 4-car Pacer formation (and I think 4x23m, I half recall having seen a 4 car 156 formation in there but I might be wrong).

Annotation-2020-09-06-125509.jpg


Photo from this article: https://tonyrobertson.mycouncillor.org.uk/2020/09/12/remember-the-skem-jazzer-train/
There certainly was a bay, I recall seeing it though never with a train in it. My grandfather used to travel from St Helens Jn to Maghull changing at Shaw Street, Rainford Jn and Ormskirk, a journey no doubt acceptable if you had time on your hands and a PT ticket.

In about 1969 I recollect the then Liverpool Divisional manager presenting the Oxford University Railway Society with the token for one of the lines in the Rainford area (perhaps the section that crossed over the L&Y main line). Does any more recent graduate know what has become of this?
 

Djgr

Established Member
Joined
30 Jul 2018
Messages
1,641
Yes:at Kirkby the eastbound platform (and track) was abandoned; the existing westbound (Liverpool) platform became the terminus for Wigan and Manchester bound trains, and a new platform was constructed west of the overbridge as the terminus for the Merseyrail electrics.
Presumably this was done was part of the third rail electrification project?

One outstanding query in my head was how long was the Walton to Kirkby section closed for this project to happen and what service happened in the meantime? i.e. did the Wigan Wallgate service terminate at Kirkby whilst the work was ongoing?
 

Dr_Paul

Established Member
Joined
3 Sep 2013
Messages
1,355
I didn't realise that there was a physical barrier at Ormskirk between the two lines; I assumed that it was a through line and that the Merseyrail and Northern services merely stopped at different points along the platform.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,541
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
I didn't realise that there was a physical barrier at Ormskirk between the two lines; I assumed that it was a through line and that the Merseyrail and Northern services merely stopped at different points along the platform.

It's like that to simplify signalling, the Merseyrail line is track circuited, while that end of the branch was for years train staff working, though I believe it's now protected using axle counters on the exit of the loop at Rufford and so the staff is no longer used. Which I must admit made me a bit nervous the first time I went down it and the staff wasn't picked up.
 

Dr_Paul

Established Member
Joined
3 Sep 2013
Messages
1,355
It's like that to simplify signalling, the Merseyrail line is track circuited, while that end of the branch was for years train staff working, though I believe it's now protected using axle counters on the exit of the loop at Rufford and so the staff is no longer used. Which I must admit made me a bit nervous the first time I went down it and the staff wasn't picked up.
Thanks for that. I imagine that there's no freight services on the line, so it can be divided without causing inconvenience. Presumably maintenance is carried out separately for each side of the divide. Is it the same arrangement at Kirkby?
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,541
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Thanks for that. I imagine that there's no freight services on the line, so it can be divided without causing inconvenience. Presumably maintenance is carried out separately for each side of the divide. Is it the same arrangement at Kirkby?

Yep. For most of my life "the Merseyrail side was maintained, the other side wasn't at all" is a reasonably accurate statement :)

Sort of. Kirkby does have freight, it's mostly double-tracked but the single-track bit is token worked rather than train staff so as to allow for said freight. Ormskirk has only the passenger service, the only other thing you have had down there in recent years is Network Rail maintenance vehicles and I think the very odd Grand National charter.
 

cin88

Member
Joined
16 Oct 2015
Messages
236
Location
WCML
It's like that to simplify signalling, the Merseyrail line is track circuited, while that end of the branch was for years train staff working, though I believe it's now protected using axle counters on the exit of the loop at Rufford and so the staff is no longer used. Which I must admit made me a bit nervous the first time I went down it and the staff wasn't picked up.

Sorry to split hairs here but Rufford - Ormskirk is protected using sequential track circuit operation at the Ormskirk end of the loop, not axle counters.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top