Our total reliance on a vaccine and putting life on hold until it's rolled out

[MikeWM]

The new 'vaccines minister' is now pushing the idea that you'll be barred from restaurants, bars and cinemas unless you've had a vaccine.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...navirus-live-england-tiers-restrictions-covid

In his first interview in his new role, Zahawi told the World at One that the government was looking at the idea of issuing people with “immunity passports”. But he said that he thought it would be service providers, not the government, that ended up asking for these. He told the programme:

"We are looking at the technology. And, of course, a way of people being able to inform their GP that they have been vaccinated.
But, also, I think you’ll probably find that restaurants and bars and cinemas and other venues, sports venues, will probably also use that system - as they have done with the app.
I think that in many ways the pressure will come from both ways, from service providers who’ll say ‘look, demonstrate to us that you have been vaccinated’."

(bold mine)

I pointed out when the NHS app came out that I feared the 'venue checkin' was a way of getting us used to getting permission to enter such places. Sadly, looks like I was right.

 

[birchesgreen]

Won't happen. It will take a long long time to vaccinate everyone, even if that is the plan. If a venue is going to bar people without the jab, which will mostly be the young and fit - most venues main customer base! - then the venues might as well close down now and save themselves the bother.

 

[6862]

I pointed out when the NHS app came out that I feared the 'venue checkin' was a way of getting us used to getting permission to enter such places. Sadly, looks like I was right.

As a young person, I don't think it's likely that I would be getting the vaccine any time soon (if at all). Does this mean I won't be allowed to enter a restaurant, hotel, cinema etc.? What a stupid idea! I wonder if/when people like Zahawi will come to their senses and see how ludicrous some of these proposals are, and how silly it makes them all look.

 

[Bikeman78]

The new 'vaccines minister' is now pushing the idea that you'll be barred from restaurants, bars and cinemas unless you've had a vaccine.

This needs clarification. When would that start? Logically it will not happen until everyone has had the opportunity to have a vaccine.

On a wider note, what's the point? Those at risk, or otherwise concerned, will get the vaccine ASAP. Once they have been done, why ban low risk people from venues?

 

[The Ham]

This needs clarification. When would that start? Logically it will not happen until everyone has had the opportunity to have a vaccine.

On a wider note, what's the point? Those at risk, or otherwise concerned, will get the vaccine ASAP. Once they have been done, why ban low risk people from venues?

Even as someone who's fairly risk adverse, I don't understand why anyone who would want to do this? Not least due to the logistics of sorting out out and the fact that it's likely to be fairly limited in the ability to justify the cost of a private vaccination (possibly £80-£120) to just be able to go out.

However I do get the thought of having it so that you have to have been vaccinated to fly, as that's a much smaller and easier thing to do and could limit the risk of spread between countries. Likewise, unless you're visiting a friend and have got a £40 flight, most people would justify the private vaccine costs for a decent weekend away or main family holiday.

 

[greyman42]

The new 'vaccines minister' is now pushing the idea that you'll be barred from restaurants, bars and cinemas unless you've had a vaccine.

More scaremongering lies.

 

[Domh245]

It's beyond disappointing to see ministers continuing to entertain the idea, but given how cack-handedly they've handled everything else to this point it's sadly not surprising.

I hope that to some extent it's self policing, and that a month or so on from "Jab 1" as it begins to dawn on businesses quite how self-restricting it is to require proof of vaccination (perhaps unless it's a bingo hall) they begin to drop it quickly. Other countries may require proof of vaccination before entry - their prerogative of course but a foolish idea IMO. Elimination countries remain up a creek without a paddle as there's still no data on if any of these vaccines actual limit transmission - they can insist on people being immunised before flying there but if they can still spread covid then they'll need to still go through the quarantines at which point you have to wonder why they needed to be vaccinated in the first place.

Even as someone who's fairly risk adverse, I don't understand why anyone who would want to do this?

Because that's what happens when you let people with zero scientific knowledge, let alone immunology or other anything else relevant, handle the implementation of measures "on the ground". It's all well and good having SAGE advising the government, but if the people managing theatres, schools, pubs, etc aren't given the scientific advice, or realistic timeframes from the government about the program, you end up with things like this.

 

[birchesgreen]

Even as someone who's fairly risk adverse, I don't understand why anyone who would want to do this? Not least due to the logistics of sorting out out and the fact that it's likely to be fairly limited in the ability to justify the cost of a private vaccination (possibly £80-£120) to just be able to go out.

However I do get the thought of having it so that you have to have been vaccinated to fly, as that's a much smaller and easier thing to do and could limit the risk of spread between countries. Likewise, unless you're visiting a friend and have got a £40 flight, most people would justify the private vaccine costs for a decent weekend away or main family holiday.

Flying abroad is fine. Many of us have vaccinations before doing that anyway, i had yellow fever vaccination before when i went to Indonesia. However i don't think its wise to require a vaccination before i can go to the chippy.

 

[DB]

More scaremongering lies.

And a new minister trying to make a name for themselves, no doubt...

 

[birchesgreen]

And a new minister trying to make a name for themselves, no doubt...

Its one of the way they intend to scare the soft-antivaxxers or cautious.

 

[Yew]

There's no evidence that any of the vaccines stop transmission.

 

[The Ham]

Flying abroad is fine. Many of us have vaccinations before doing that anyway, i had yellow fever vaccination before when i went to Indonesia. However i don't think its wise to require a vaccination before i can go to the chippy.

Exactly.

 

[Scotrail12]

Matt Hancock seemed to rule mandatory vaccination out in today's press conference but no mention of vaccine passports or anything of the kind.

I'll be seriously angry if vaccine passports are made a thing given that my generation aren't due to get the vaccine for a while yet, so it would essentially be ageist discrimination.

 

[Richard Scott]

Flying abroad is fine. Many of us have vaccinations before doing that anyway, i had yellow fever vaccination before when i went to Indonesia. However i don't think its wise to require a vaccination before i can go to the chippy.

No actually I'm afraid it isn't. We get vaccinated for some countries as they have diseases we have no immunity to that are very dangerous. This virus certainly is not that dangerous, the biggest issue is the hysteria surrounding it. Why should I have to have proof of a vaccination to travel around Europe for something that isn't that serious? I'm not against vaccination but am against the need for one for European travel.

 

[birchesgreen]

No actually I'm afraid it isn't. We get vaccinated for some countries as they have diseases we have no immunity to that are very dangerous. This virus certainly is not that dangerous, the biggest issue is the hysteria surrounding it. Why should I have to have proof of a vaccination to travel around Europe for something that isn't that serious? I'm not against vaccination but am against the need for one for European travel.

I meant requiring vaccination for something as "big" or rare as a foreign holiday was feasible (and whether it should be done or not is another issue). Requiring one for everyday existence was not.

 

[The Ham]

I meant requiring vaccination for something as "big" or rare as a foreign holiday was feasible (and whether it should be done or not is another issue). Requiring one for everyday existence was not.

Indeed, there's also the extent of paperwork which would be required by each business which brought in a requirement for their customers to have a vaccine. Again that's manageable for something like flying, but certainly not for going to the shops.

There is of course the debate as to whether a vaccine should be required for flying, however given that some (Qantas had already suggested it) think that is a good idea, then it's likely to be a decision made by others regardless of what we may think.

Once one airline takes that step, it's not likely to be long before others consider it a sensible option (who's going to be you're bigger, most profitable, target market those over 50 or those under of you're an airline?).

It may not be every country which then also thinks it's a wise move, but it could well be that within the EU and within the USA that travel without a vaccine is permitted, however from outside of that (now if the UK is counted within the EU for that to count is also up for debate, but Brexit isn't going to help on that front) then there's likely to be more of a desire for those entering to be vaccinated.

 

[Richard Scott]

I meant requiring vaccination for something as "big" or rare as a foreign holiday was feasible (and whether it should be done or not is another issue). Requiring one for everyday existence was not.

I know, my reply was in response to that, I am totally against requiring a vaccination certificate just so I can go to Europe.

 

[HSTEd]

Won't happen. It will take a long long time to vaccinate everyone, even if that is the plan. If a venue is going to bar people without the jab, which will mostly be the young and fit - most venues main customer base! - then the venues might as well close down now and save themselves the bother.

Well it serves the Tory voter base great

It allows them to have pubs, whilst destroying the venues that they complain about - the ones that young people enjoy

 

[Freightmaster]

There's no evidence that any of the vaccines stop transmission.

They don't (to any meaningful extent*)

Their primary purpose is to reduce symptoms/hospitalisations/deaths, thereby 'saving' the NHS.


*although it is hoped that by reducing/eliminating Covid symptoms in those infected, transmission of
the underlying virus will be significantly curtailed as symptomatic transmission is widely thought to
to the main cause of the 'R' number being over 1 for most of this year, so vaccines should enable
R to remain comfortably below 1 even when every part of the country moves to tier 1 restrictions.




MARK

 

[Jonny]

The new 'vaccines minister' is now pushing the idea that you'll be barred from restaurants, bars and cinemas unless you've had a vaccine.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...navirus-live-england-tiers-restrictions-covid

(bold mine)

I pointed out when the NHS app came out that I feared the 'venue checkin' was a way of getting us used to getting permission to enter such places. Sadly, looks like I was right.

It would be a much harder thing; the restrictions on the Government's preferred enabling act include these restrictions. They would be on a very sticky wicket if they even tried:

Public Health (Control of Disease) Act 1984

An Act to consolidate certain enactments relating to the control of disease and to the establishment and functions of port health authorities, including enactments relating to burial and cremation and to the regulation of common lodging–houses and canal boats, with amendments to give effect to...

www.legislation.gov.uk

45EMedical treatment​

(1)Regulations under section 45B or 45C may not include provision requiring a person to undergo medical treatment.

(2)“ Medical treatment ” includes vaccination and other prophylactic treatment.

 

[packermac]

No actually I'm afraid it isn't. We get vaccinated for some countries as they have diseases we have no immunity to that are very dangerous. This virus certainly is not that dangerous, the biggest issue is the hysteria surrounding it. Why should I have to have proof of a vaccination to travel around Europe for something that isn't that serious? I'm not against vaccination but am against the need for one for European travel.

Because it will be down to each country (or maybe EU or the members if they can agree) what is required to allow entry. Airlines will then enforce it as they will be the ones picking up the repatriation costs as they do now when visa requirements are not met.
Airlines may of course choose to require it as a pre-requisite to fly as a "marketing tool"

 

[BJames]

I suspect when social distancing regulations are revoked, if the 18-21 year olds are not yet eligible for vaccination then some of our local bars and clubs will waste no time in reopening, vaccine or no vaccine...

 

[birchesgreen]

Well it serves the Tory voter base great

It allows them to have pubs, whilst destroying the venues that they complain about - the ones that young people enjoy

I'm sure mass youth unemployment and nothing for them to do will serve the Tory base well, their houses will burn down a treat

 

[DustyBin]

I'm sure mass youth unemployment and nothing for them to do will serve the Tory base well, their houses will burn down a treat

Whilst its generally true that older people are more likely to vote Tory, I’m not sure that’s the case in the former ‘red wall’ areas. A lot of the older population are so entrenched in their views they won’t vote anything but labour. I think it was largely working age voters who turned blue out of fear of Corbyn (and to ‘get brexit done’ as well). I’m quite alarmed actually at how, having borrowed these votes (their words!) the Tories have been so quick to throw their new supporters under the bus. As a Tory voter myself I’m disgusted and won’t vote for them without a wholesale change at cabinet level. I can actually see myself never voting for them again, as per the other thread I feel politically homeless!

 

[yorksrob]

Whilst its generally true that older people are more likely to vote Tory, I’m not sure that’s the case in the former ‘red wall’ areas. A lot of the older population are so entrenched in their views they won’t vote anything but labour. I think it was largely working age voters who turned blue out of fear of Corbyn (and to ‘get brexit done’ as well). I’m quite alarmed actually at how, having borrowed these votes (their words!) the Tories have been so quick to throw their new supporters under the bus. As a Tory voter myself I’m disgusted and won’t vote for them without a wholesale change at cabinet level. I can actually see myself never voting for them again, as per the other thread I feel politically homeless!

To be fair, with the exception of the Mayor of Greater Manchester, the opposition hasn't exactly stepped up to the plate.

 

[island]

It would be a much harder thing; the restrictions on the Government's preferred enabling act include these restrictions. They would be on a very sticky wicket if they even tried:

Public Health (Control of Disease) Act 1984

An Act to consolidate certain enactments relating to the control of disease and to the establishment and functions of port health authorities, including enactments relating to burial and cremation and to the regulation of common lodging–houses and canal boats, with amendments to give effect to...

www.legislation.gov.uk

They could simply pass an Act of Parliament to do the necessary.

Even without that, the section you mention only prevents the government from mandating treatment. It does not prevent businesses from refusing service to those who are unvaccinated (subject to the usual equality act provisions).

 

[STINT47]

There is now no plans to introduce a vaccine passport according to a different minister.

Covid-19: No plans for 'vaccine passport' - Michael Gove

It follows suggestions pubs and restaurants may turn away people who don't get a coronavirus vaccine.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[DB]

They could simply pass an Act of Parliament to do the necessary

They could try - but the levle of opposition they are getting from their own MPs (and it's increasing) is likely to make that difficult.

 

[ainsworth74]

They could try - but the levle of opposition they are getting from their own MPs (and it's increasing) is likely to make that difficult.

Parliamentary arithmetic still favours the government unless there's a huge rebellion and the opposition vote against or if the opposition abstain and then a truly gargantuan rebellion occurs (half the parliamentary party voting against the government). When you've got a majority of 80 seats it takes a lot for a government not to get its own way...

 

[DB]

Parliamentary arithmetic still favours the government unless there's a huge rebellion and the opposition vote against or if the opposition abstain and then a truly gargantuan rebellion occurs (half the parliamentary party voting against the government). When you've got a majority of 80 seats it takes a lot for a government not to get its own way...

Yes, it does at the moment - but something really significant like that might provoke considerably more opposition, especially given that there's not even any evidence that the vaccine will stop transmission anyway (not that evidence has been of any importance in government decisions up until now, of couse!).