Oxford rationalisation - but keeping single company tickets!

[Surreyman]

I'm struggling to see how anyone is coming off well from these changes unless the corridors are severely over bussed. Also not very good changes for Stagecoach who should lose 10 buses worth of work (3/3A is 5 buses and 12/16 is another 5 buses). The do gain sole operation of the 2 bus they aren't putting extra buses on that, they are ridding the 2B and so it makes no difference to the PVR).
Oxford Bus Company seems to be PVR neutral (not including the 11 & X39/X40 bus movements)


Stagecoach:
S8/S9 - PVR neutral
3/3A - down 3 buses
12/16 - down 5 buses


OBC:
2/2A/2B - down 6 buses
3/3A - up 3
5A - up 2
6 - up 1 (maybe unless they shrink the running time)
X1 - up 3
500 - down 3

Depends how you look at it, you could say that Stagecoach save 10 buses worth of drivers duties + get to transfer out 9-10 buses to other areas to replace older stock. Could be argued 'Everyone's a winner'

 

[markymark2000]

Depends how you look at it, you could say that Stagecoach save 10 buses worth of drivers duties + get to transfer out 9-10 buses to other areas to replace older stock. Could be argued 'Everyone's a winner'

Losing 10 buses worth of work is a lot to lose. It's even more lost in the past year when you think about it because the Tube hasn't returned to full timetable yet. It's never good when you lose so much work overnight. Yes there are some benefits but hardly local benefits since it means you have less work for drivers, less buses for engineering and so on.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Losing 10 buses worth of work is a lot to lose. It's even more lost in the past year when you think about it because the Tube hasn't returned to full timetable yet. It's never good when you lose so much work overnight. Yes there are some benefits but hardly local benefits since it means you have less work for drivers, less buses for engineering and so on.

It can't be a problem for them else they wouldn't have agreed it. There is no way in this context to force them.

I suspect they are having staffing challenges and so it is a blessing.

 

[overthewater]

If you factor in the Park n ride customers which Stagecoach have also gained, will they care if their lose 10 buses if this new arrangement gives them the same customer base or revenue?

​

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It can't be a problem for them else they wouldn't have agreed it. There is no way in this context to force them.

I suspect they are having staffing challenges and so it is a blessing.

I would imagine you're probably right. There's fewer passengers and a dearth of drivers, so you cut your cloth to reflect reduced revenues and it assists in service reliability.

 

[RELL6L]

I'm struggling to see how anyone is coming off well from these changes unless the corridors are severely over bussed. Also not very good changes for Stagecoach who should lose 10 buses worth of work (3/3A is 5 buses and 12/16 is another 5 buses). The do gain sole operation of the 2 bus they aren't putting extra buses on that, they are ridding the 2B and so it makes no difference to the PVR).
Oxford Bus Company seems to be PVR neutral (not including the 11 & X39/X40 bus movements)


Stagecoach:
S8/S9 - PVR neutral
3/3A - down 3 buses
12/16 - down 5 buses


OBC:
2/2A/2B - down 6 buses
3/3A - up 3
5A - up 2
6 - up 1 (maybe unless they shrink the running time)
X1 - up 3
500 - down 3

I don't think this is correct as regards the 2s.
At the moment each operator runs 6 buses, with a round trip time of 80 minutes. This provides a combined frequency of every 6-7 minutes (9 bph).
Off peak the combined frequency is going to be every 10 minutes, so that's 8 buses.
Peaks it says it will be every 7-8 minutes, implying 8bph. That might be 10 buses, more likely 11.
So for Stagecoach it isn't neutral, it is plus 2 during the off peak and plus 4 or 5 during the peak (ie pvr).
OBC, as said, it is down 6.
I haven't looked at the other figures but I do agree Stagecoach seem to have come out marginally worse than OBC. Maybe there is something else in the equation - Stagecoach seem to have done well with the H2, H4, H5, 700, 800, 900, assuming these are all subsidised.

 

[markymark2000]

I would imagine you're probably right. There's fewer passengers and a dearth of drivers, so you cut your cloth to reflect reduced revenues and it assists in service reliability.

I'd have expected it to be a bit more even though.

If you factor in the Park n ride customers which Stagecoach have also gained, will they care if their lose 10 buses if this new arrangement gives them the same customer base or revenue

There will be gains yes but if you are net 10 buses down, that


Off peak on the

I don't think this is correct as regards the 2s.
At the moment each operator runs 6 buses, with a round trip time of 80 minutes. This provides a combined frequency of every 6-7 minutes (9 bph).
Off peak the combined frequency is going to be every 10 minutes, so that's 8 buses.
Peaks it says it will be every 7-8 minutes, implying 8bph. That might be 10 buses, more likely 11.
So for Stagecoach it isn't neutral, it is plus 2 during the off peak and plus 4 or 5 during the peak (ie pvr).
OBC, as said, it is down 6.
I haven't looked at the other figures but I do agree Stagecoach seem to have come out marginally worse than OBC. Maybe there is something else in the equation - Stagecoach seem to have done well with the H2, H4, H5, 700, 800, 900, assuming these are all subsidised.

I wasn't including peaks but if I did, they have lost the 34 in the peak so the buses on the 34 have kind of moved onto the 2.

As for the off peak PVR, not sure how I worked it out. I will accept that I was wrong though on that and I will amend the post.

 

[Flange Squeal]

And one which will weaken with these changes - several Thames Travel routes are transferring to the Oxford Bus Company, seemingly as part of this (certainly at the same time). This includes the X39 and X40 - which go all the way to Reading and are geographically far more in line with TT than OBC.

That is only possible because they maintain a separate Thames Travel brand. If they removed the Stagecoach brand on acquisition then it wouldn't be possible to a maintain separate ticket range for the former Stagecoach services, unless they went out of their way to specify which routes the tickets are valid on.

Out of interest, does anyone know when the Thames Travel website ceased to exist in its own right (http://www.thames-travel.co.uk/) and began redirecting to the main Oxford Bus Company one but with small Thames Travel logo at the top? I'm sure it was still active as recently as the last month or so? Could we potentially be seeing the beginning of the Thames Travel operation being merged into the Oxford Bus Company?

 

[markymark2000]

Out of interest, does anyone know when the Thames Travel website ceased to exist in its own right (http://www.thames-travel.co.uk/) and began redirecting to the main Oxford Bus Company one but with small Thames Travel logo at the top? I'm sure it was still active as recently as the last month or so? Could we potentially be seeing the beginning of the Thames Travel operation being merged into the Oxford Bus Company?

It happened when the new Passenger site came in. I think Passenger charge a lot per operator and so GoAhead have tried to reduce the amount of websites. Headingham and Chambers did the same when their website changed.

 

[Robertj21a]

Out of interest, does anyone know when the Thames Travel website ceased to exist in its own right (http://www.thames-travel.co.uk/) and began redirecting to the main Oxford Bus Company one but with small Thames Travel logo at the top? I'm sure it was still active as recently as the last month or so? Could we potentially be seeing the beginning of the Thames Travel operation being merged into the Oxford Bus Company?

I thought it had been confirmed that Thames Travel was to be absorbed within Oxford. Presumably, an official announcement is still outstanding.

 

[181]

Out of interest, does anyone know when the Thames Travel website ceased to exist in its own right (http://www.thames-travel.co.uk/) and began redirecting to the main Oxford Bus Company one but with small Thames Travel logo at the top? I'm sure it was still active as recently as the last month or so? Could we potentially be seeing the beginning of the Thames Travel operation being merged into the Oxford Bus Company?

It happened when the new Passenger site came in. I think Passenger charge a lot per operator and so GoAhead have tried to reduce the amount of websites. Headingham and Chambers did the same when their website changed.

I thought it had been confirmed that Thames Travel was to be absorbed within Oxford. Presumably, an official announcement is still outstanding.

The sites were merged a few weeks ago. It wouldn't surprise me if the two brands and/or operations* were merged, but if that was the plan I don't know why they'd bother changing the X39/X40 from one to the other. (Indeed I'm not sure why they're doing that anyway).

*I don't know how separate they are behind the scenes; you do see OBC-liveried buses on TT routes from time to time.

 

[Cesarcollie]

I'd have expected it to be a bit more even though.


There will be gains yes but if you are net 10 buses down, that


Off peak on the



I wasn't including peaks but if I did, they have lost the 34 in the peak so the buses on the 34 have kind of moved onto the 2.

As for the off peak PVR, not sure how I worked it out. I will accept that I was wrong though on that and I will amend the post.

Surely the big question for each company is the balance of profitability on each of the routes gained/surrendered. If operator A loses 6 PVR and operator B loses 8 PVR, but calculations suggest both will retain overall the same revenue, then the operator who has lost 8 PVR is actually the winner ! (I accept they may be at different levels of profitability to start with, but that is unlikely to have been part of the negotiations). Turnover is vanity, profit is sanity……

 

[duncombec]

It can go along the High, where a bus gate keeps out other through traffic.

Purely by chance, I came across an article on Oxford Bus Company in the February 1995 issue of BUSES. It states quite clearly that the banning of cars from the High Street was the bus operator's quid pro quo proposal* for the complete pedestrianisation of Cornmarket .

[...] For some years there has been talk of buses being banned from Cornmarket, the main north/south semi-pedestrianised shopping street which is too narrow at points for buses to even pass one another. Whilst bus operators have resisted these threats, Keith Moffat is prepared to do deals and accept a Cornmarket ban in return for cars being banned from the High Street which runs south-east from the busy Carfax intersection. 'There's a bit of tactics involved,' he says. 'We're coming clean and being positive about what we think is the best way forward. [...]"

(Any typos mine. * It's not entirely clear whether it was an OBC only proposal or joint with Thames Transit. The quote suggests OBC, but then the paragraph continues that both operators were going to reduce use of Cornmarket for layovers).

Not for this thread, for which development would be off-topic, but the general relationship between local authorities and operators has a substantial effect on the success of bus operations. Note the number of restrictions bought in for "social distancing" - either full or partial road closures - for which bus services have definitely been a second thought, if they were even thought about at all.

 

[johncrossley]

but the general relationship between local authorities and operators has a substantial effect on the success of bus operations

That's only relevant where bus companies have complete freedom on routes, which will probably become less relevant over time. In London there are sometimes issues between TfL and the boroughs. For example, TfL wants a bus lane but the borough doesn't. Or the borough wants to close a road to buses. But on 'red routes', TfL can act as both operator and highway authority, which reduces such friction.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

The multi operator bus ticket in Oxford, the Smart Zone ticket, whilst being slightly more expensive does have different validity being valid for 24 hrs from purchase.
Currently it seems there is:
Stagecoach Dayrider at £3.80
Oxford Bus Company Cityzone day ticket at £3.90
24 Hour Smart Zone at £4.30
Depending on the times when you travel the Smart Zone could actually be the cheapest if travelling over only two days.

There is also a 5 day option, costing £16.50. I know because I live in Oxford (well I'm there as a uni student).

General note - not sure whether this is relevant or not, but it is worth noting that both Oxford Bus Company/Thames Travel's entire network £8.50 Go Anywhere Ticket and Stagecoach Dayrider Gold are both valid on eachother services in the Smartzone area.

I have a choice of two routes between the family home and Oxford City centre, one OBC and one Stagecoach, so the Smartzone ticket is very handy, particularly when I arrive in Oxford in the afternoon, buy one to get home and use it the next day for a trip into town. I did however once buy a 3-day Smartzone only to be told by a Stagecoach driver that it was only valid on OBC services.

Smartzone is valid on all of my local routes. Those being the 1, 10, 12 (Stagecoach), 5, U5, U6 (Oxford Bus Company) and 11 (Thames Travel).

Out of interest what are your local routes?

One only issue for Smartzone, which I think needs to be solved asap is the following: if you buy it from OBC/Thames Travel, you can't use it on Stagecoach night buses, and if you buy it from Stagecoach, you can't use it on OBC/Thames Travel night buses. This issue should be solved asap particularly for students like myself who go out at night and use night buses to go back. Why pay an extra (and more expensive ticket) for use on a different company just because it's night, when in the day time such ticket would be valid on the other company?

 

[py_megapixel]

In terms of service quality OBC are leagues ahead of Stagecoach. Their vehicles are just so much more pleasant - and also easier to use, given the auto announcements

 

[SouthEastBuses]

In terms of service quality OBC are leagues ahead of Stagecoach. Their vehicles are just so much more pleasant - and also easier to use, given the auto announcements

Fully agree, but Stagecoach also do have announcements now, on the S1/S2. So Stagecoach is catching up with OBC, eventutally.

Although I'm no fan of some of Oxfordshire County Council's actions, particularly the former Conservative administration's withdrawal of all bus subsidies, I don't see how you can say with a straight face that they've made it difficult for operators to serve central Oxford.

A bus can go almost anywhere in Oxford. It can go along Queen Street, where even bikes are banned, presumably on the basis that it hurts more if you get hit by a 10kg bike than a 12,000kg double-decker. It can go along the High, where a bus gate keeps out other through traffic. There are bus lanes on many of the arterial roads, and traffic lights to speed their passage. Buses are the mode of traffic afforded most privilege in Oxford. Compare with the cycle infrastructure, which is basically prehistoric when compared to many other British cities.


Indeed. Here in rural West Oxfordshire, Pulhams/Stagecoach through ticketing would make a massive difference. If you want to go from (say) Chipping Norton or Charlbury to Carterton or Eynsham, you have to rebook at Witney. Pulhams not taking cards doesn't help.

And this is why Oxfordshire needs a Discovery/Intalink/Wiltshire Rover type ticket! A ticket that can be used on any bus operated by any company valid for the day.

 

[Falcon1200]

Smartzone is valid on all of my local routes. Those being the 1, 10, 12 (Stagecoach), 5, U5, U6 (Oxford Bus Company) and 11 (Thames Travel).

Out of interest what are your local routes?

The routes to Marston, ie OBC X3 and 13, Stagecoach 14/14A. I would not be surprised if the Stagecoach Driver who refused my 3-day Smartzone ticket was mistaken, normally I buy the 24-hour ticket and have never had an issue with that.

 

[JamesT]

The routes to Marston, ie OBC X3 and 13, Stagecoach 14/14A. I would not be surprised if the Stagecoach Driver who refused my 3-day Smartzone ticket was mistaken, normally I buy the 24-hour ticket and have never had an issue with that.

I don’t see a 3-day Smartzone ticket. However there is a 72-hour CityZone (ie OBC only), perhaps you had one of those?

 

[SouthEastBuses]

The routes to Marston, ie OBC X3 and 13, Stagecoach 14/14A. I would not be surprised if the Stagecoach Driver who refused my 3-day Smartzone ticket was mistaken, normally I buy the 24-hour ticket and have never had an issue with that.

Also OBC U5 and Stagecoach 700.

As @JamesT says, you will most likely have had a Cityzone. Cityzone is OBC/TT only. Smartzone is both Stagecoach and OBC/TT.

I do remember I once got on a X32 and showed to the driver my Stagecoach issued Smartzone. He initially refused it, but then I explained to him that it was valid on Thames and afterwards he let me on!

 

[Falcon1200]

Also OBC U5 and Stagecoach 700.

I very rarely travel on those, the buses to and from the city are those of most use to me.

I don’t see a 3-day Smartzone ticket. However there is a 72-hour CityZone (ie OBC only), perhaps you had one of those?

Cityzone is OBC/TT only. Smartzone is both Stagecoach and OBC/TT.

I had assumed that a 72-hour ticket would be valid on the same services as a 24-hour one, but clearly not. Thanks !

 

[Scotrail88]

Is there a final total of buses being saved by this?
Surely will oust some of the older fleet

 

[miklcct]

But it is not like that. Yes buses may be reliant on more subsidy, but the revenue risk is still to be with the bus companies, therefore the more revenue they can take on their bus the better it is for them. Hence the desire to retain single company ticketing products.

And the bus company takes the risk of losing a monthly customer totally if its route is competed over, even if the competitor provides worse service.

For example, on a certain express route I use multiple times per week, only one operator provided service in the past, therefore a monthly on that operator was a no-brainer. However, it didn't provide departures in the evening when I wanted to take it so I was forced to take other indirect routes. This was clearly unsatisfactory so eventually I would buy a car when my life settled down and I was able to afford to.

In September, another local bus company, known to have worse service (more expensive fare, worse on-board facilities, less frequency, etc., but with longer operating hours) than the one I used, entered the corridor with longer service hours which covered the period I wanted in the evening. Both had half-hourly departures at nearly the same time in daytime so it's common to see them running on the express section together. As a result I switched to the other company so the original one now receives £0 for that.

 

[RT4038]

And the bus company takes the risk of losing a monthly customer totally if its route is competed over, even if the competitor provides worse service.

For example, on a certain express route I use multiple times per week, only one operator provided service in the past, therefore a monthly on that operator was a no-brainer. However, it didn't provide departures in the evening when I wanted to take it so I was forced to take other indirect routes. This was clearly unsatisfactory so eventually I would buy a car when my life settled down and I was able to afford to.

In September, another local bus company, known to have worse service (more expensive fare, worse on-board facilities, less frequency, etc., but with longer operating hours) than the one I used, entered the corridor with longer service hours which covered the period I wanted in the evening. Both had half-hourly departures at nearly the same time in daytime so it's common to see them running on the express section together. As a result I switched to the other company so the original one now receives £0 for that.

Yes. It is swings and roundabouts depending on local conditions. Each bus company would have to make a commercial decision depending on their circumstances.

 

[duncombec]

I don't think I've seen it mentioned here yet, but in looking at Park & Ride services for the other thread, the Oxford Bus (OBC) website now lists timetables for all operators serving Oxford City Centre, including Arriva, Pulhams, Redline and Stagecoach.

The online format is in the Go-Ahead standard style, albeit with no option to download a PDF or fares information. There also currently appears to be a problem with Stagecoach services not showing information next week. I presume this issue, and the basic data, comes from Bus Open Data (BODS).

Has any other company yet used this information to attempt to provide comprehensive information for an area, rather than just their own services?

 

[plebb11]

Arriva is about to join the Oxford smartzone ticket scheme from 30th January;

Arriva Bus

www.arrivabus.co.uk

Travelling around Oxford just got easier, with the Oxford SmartZone tickets now valid on Arriva bus services in the city.
Arriva’s 280 and X8 buses connect Wheatley and Headington with the City Centre and Rail Station up to every 20 minutes, and from 30 January you’ll be able to get unlimited travel within the Oxford SmartZone area on Arriva buses as well as those of Oxford Bus Company, Stagecoach, and Thames Travel – all on one ticket! View map here.

Oxford SmartZone makes it really easy to get around Oxford with just one ticket. It’s convenient, flexible, great for regular travel and ideal for commuters. The ticket gives customers the freedom to get in and around the city as much as they like – in a week, 4 weeks, 13 weeks, any 5 days, any 12 trips, or for a whole year.

 

[Falcon1200]

Arriva is about to join the Oxford smartzone ticket scheme from 30th January;

Arriva Bus

www.arrivabus.co.uk

That's an excellent and sensible move, thanks for the update. Annoyingly I'll be in Oxford soon but leaving on the 1st of Feb !