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P&O Ferries - mass redundancies without consultation

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BayPaul

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P&O have had an accident at Calais this weekend involving a loaded coach nearly getting crushed between a linkspan and the top of the bow apperture on the Pride of Kent.

This could very easily have been a lot worse.




View attachment 118905
I've never seen anything like that before. Looks like the ramp fingers began to retract during loading. It's more likely to be the port's fault than P&O's - the ramp fingers that have lifted are part of the linkspan, whichbis owned and operated by the port.
 
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zwk500

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I've never seen anything like that before. Looks like the ramp fingers began to retract during loading. It's more likely to be the port's fault than P&O's - the ramp fingers that have lifted are part of the linkspan, whichbis owned and operated by the port.
Indeed - the boat's decks are fixed, and the deck itself doesn't appear to be misaligned or out of shape with the linkspan. It's possible the boat was improperly secured in the berth and started moving but I'd have thought the port operators wouldn't have cleared vehicles onto the ramp if they had any concerns.
However, even if primary responsibility does rest with the port questions should still be asked about whether the Boat Crew saw the problem and could they have done any more to stop it?
 

BayPaul

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Indeed - the boat's decks are fixed, and the deck itself doesn't appear to be misaligned or out of shape with the linkspan. It's possible the boat was improperly secured in the berth and started moving but I'd have thought the port operators wouldn't have cleared vehicles onto the ramp if they had any concerns.
However, even if primary responsibility does rest with the port questions should still be asked about whether the Boat Crew saw the problem and could they have done any more to stop it?
The photo shows that the ship is still well aligned with the ramp, but it has raised up. It must have happened very fast, otherwise you presume that the coach driver would have stopped. Due to the design of the deck here, for safety, it wouldn't be practical for a ships crewmember to be stood very close, so I really can't see how P&O crew could have done anything at all about this.
Some replies to the Tweet say that it is at Calais where the ramp is operated by port staff, so may have nothing to do with the staffing issue.
I can't see any way this is related to be honest.
 

Peter Mugridge

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I don't think anyone directly said it was related to the employment situation? However... it does need a close examination into what went wrong and whether or not it's the port's fault it is inevitable that the question will come up isn't it?

How fast do the linkspans raise once the sequence has been started?

That is the key question which will be used to decide if anyone on the ship could have given a warning in time.

...and a question of my own... the bit above the crushed coach; is that part of the bow door mechanism or is that the front of an upper car deck?
 

zwk500

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I don't think anyone directly said it was related to the employment situation?
Its been posted on this thread, so somebody is certainly linking the two events.
However... it does need a close examination into what went wrong and whether or not it's the port's fault it is inevitable that the question will come up isn't it?
Yes, but highly likely to be very quickly answered in this case.
How fast do the linkspans raise once the sequence has been started?
Another question is whether the operator has to continuously apply the control or if they just start the process and then observe to intervene if need be.
That is the key question which will be used to decide if anyone on the ship could have given a warning in time.
It's one of them, but there are other factors like the positioning of the crew on deck.
...and a question of my own... the bit above the crushed coach; is that part of the bow door mechanism or is that the front of an upper car deck?
I think its the upper car deck. You can see the bow doors to the side of the entrance.
 

Grumpy Git

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The hydraulic rams operating the linkspan have actually bent the main beam running underneath it when the coach roof stopped it actually lifting any further.

It's not a photographic anomaly either, as the edge of the deck just below the linkspan beam is perfectly parallel.
 

Typhoon

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P&O Ferries will not face criminal action over the way it fired nearly 800 employees earlier this year, the Insolvency Service has said.

The firm sacked staff without notice in March, replacing them with foreign agency workers who were paid less than the UK minimum wage.

.....

The spokesperson added that, after conducting a criminal investigation, which was reviewed by an independent senior prosecution lawyer, it was concluded that there was "no realistic prospect of a conviction".

A government spokesperson said: "In sacking 800 dedicated staff on the spot, P&O Ferries not only acted callously but failed to uphold the high standards we expect of British businesses.

"Given their appalling behaviour, it's very disappointing that the company will not face criminal proceedings."

From https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-62613625

Rightly or wrongly, I suspect some of those involved in industrial relations may well concur that Lady Justice's scales are not as equally balanced as they appear.
 

Baxenden Bank

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From https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-62613625

Rightly or wrongly, I suspect some of those involved in industrial relations may well concur that Lady Justice's scales are not as equally balanced as they appear.
Others may well be encouraged by this. Fail to see how a successful prosecution cannot be achieved when the boss is on video freely admitting to breaking the law and knowingly doing so. But hey ho, loopholes and lawyers in cahoots.
 

Cletus

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P&O Ferries has admitted the sacking of a former chef was unfair dismissal after about 800 staff lost their jobs without notice in March.
John Lansdown was the only seafarer to take legal action after refusing a redundancy settlement offered by the ferry company.
The settlement will go to the Sailors Children's Society.
 

Gloster

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Meanwhile, P&O have just been announced as Best Company for Short Sea/Mini Cruises at the British Travel Awards. Sadly, they did not win Best Ferry Operator this year.
 

zwk500

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Meanwhile, P&O have just been announced as Best Company for Short Sea/Mini Cruises at the British Travel Awards. Sadly, they did not win Best Ferry Operator this year.
Is that P&O Cruises (a completely separate company) though?
 

Towers

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Meanwhile, P&O have just been announced as Best Company for Short Sea/Mini Cruises at the British Travel Awards. Sadly, they did not win Best Ferry Operator this year.
To be honest, who else is there? Brittany do a slog down to Santander I think, but that must be about the only competition?
 

Typhoon

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Is that P&O Cruises (a completely separate company) though?
You are right.

From their website https://www.pocruises.com/about-us

Is P & O Cruises owned by DP World

No. We have no association whatsoever with DP World.

...

P&O Cruises has been part of Carnival Corporation & PLC for over 20 years. The combined fleet of more than 100 ships visit more than 700 ports globally. And the family is ever-growing with a total of 16 new ships scheduled to be delivered to Carnival Corporation’s brands through 2025. Nearly 13 million guests set sail every year across the Carnival brands – that’s around 50% of the global cruise market and equates to more than 35,600 daily cruise guests. So you’re in good company!
They obviously don't like to be linked with the ferry company.
 

Tetchytyke

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I believe the disclaimer was added not very long after P&O Ferries changed their staff.
It was, P&O Cruises were getting dog's abuse over it.

Not that I feel particularly sorry for them, their fleet is flagged in Bermuda for a reason.

No, I don’t think so. It says P&O Ferries on the British Travel Awards website

Is that one of those awards you win by handing a big fat cheque to the organisers?

Anyone who says P&O are better than either DFDS or Brittany Ferries are objectively wrong.
 

richw

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Anyone who says P&O are better than either DFDS or Brittany Ferries are objectively wrong.
Brittany ferries and DFDS are in a completely different league, several levels higher! No competition if it’s based on quality.
 

paul1609

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It was, P&O Cruises were getting dog's abuse over it.

Not that I feel particularly sorry for them, their fleet is flagged in Bermuda for a reason.
The best one is Calmac owned by the Scottish Goverment employing all its staff via a Guernsey Co to avoid paying National Insurance and then the SNP complaining that the NHS is underfunded.
 

BayPaul

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To be honest, who else is there? Brittany do a slog down to Santander I think, but that must be about the only competition?
There are loads who are better. For mini cruises (i.e spending 1 or 2 nights onboard) Stena have excellent ships on Harwich - Hook of Holland and Birkenhead to Belfast; Brittany Ferries are especially good to Caen, St Malo and Spain, and better than P&O on their other routes. DFDS are good from Newcastle to Amsterdam.

For short sea experience, I would rate Stena or Irish Ferries to Dublin or Rosslare or Stena on Cairnryan to Belfast as much better than P&O. On the Dover Straits, reviews I've seen have rated Irish Ferries as the best, with P&O beating DFDS.
It was, P&O Cruises were getting dog's abuse over it.

Not that I feel particularly sorry for them, their fleet is flagged in Bermuda for a reason.
Mainly because the UK flag doesn't allow weddings at sea. Nothing changed on board in terms of standards or crew conditions when the fleet was reflagged in the early 2000s. Bermuda is a pretty good flag, in the red ensign group, so basically similar to the UK.
 

Tetchytyke

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The best one is Calmac owned by the Scottish Goverment employing all its staff via a Guernsey Co to avoid paying National Insurance

I have no idea about this arrangement, but National Insurance is charged in Guernsey.

Mainly because the UK flag doesn't allow weddings at sea. Nothing changed on board in terms of standards or crew conditions when the fleet was reflagged in the early 2000s. Bermuda is a pretty good flag, in the red ensign group, so basically similar to the UK.

Interesting, and good to hear.
 

Cloud Strife

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I have no idea about this arrangement, but National Insurance is charged in Guernsey.

It is, but it's still lower than in the UK. UK rates are around 13% (employee) and 15% (employer), whereas Guernsey is around 7% for both. It's a substantial saving, and I believe their state pension is far more generous than in the UK.
 

paul1609

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According to the Scotsman by 2019 it had saved the Scottish Government around £35 million;
 

Tetchytyke

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It is, but it's still lower than in the UK. UK rates are around 13% (employee) and 15% (employer), whereas Guernsey is around 7% for both. It's a substantial saving, and I believe their state pension is far more generous than in the UK.

I would imagine any saving is on the employer rate. As here in the IOM, the nominal rate for employees is lower but the threshold for paying it is also lower (although the IOM rate at 11% is higher than Guernsey). My NICs here are basically the same amount as they would be in the UK.

Guernsey's retirement age is now 70 for people of my age, too.

As for the use of the scheme, if you're going to have competitive tenders then this will happen, unless the tender specifically prohibits it. Serco do it with NorthLink Ferries too.
 

paul1609

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The difference is David MacBrayne is a limited company wholly owned by the Scottish Government. It should absolutely not be involved in tax avoidance measures.
SERCO are a multinational PLC.
 

Tetchytyke

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The difference is David MacBrayne is a limited company wholly owned by the Scottish Government. It should absolutely not be involved in tax avoidance measures.
SERCO are a multinational PLC.

But if the Scottish Government are expecting CalMac to competitively tender for work then CalMac are going to take the same cost reduction measures as their competitors. Unless the tender prohibits it.
 

WibbleWobble

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On the Dover Straits, reviews I've seen have rated Irish Ferries as the best, with P&O beating DFDS.
I travelled with Irish Ferries for a short break during October half term, and it was an enjoyable experience, even if the ferry back to the UK wasn't really designed to be a passenger ferry (it was a bit cramped in the lounge area!).

Also helped that they charged by the car, so taking the four of us or adding my Mum and sister in my Mum's people carrier cost us the same. And they take Clubcard vouchers, whereas DFDS (our previous choice) has stopped taking them.

Plus they sell Lego sets in the duty free store ;).
 

Cloud Strife

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The difference is David MacBrayne is a limited company wholly owned by the Scottish Government. It should absolutely not be involved in tax avoidance measures.

The Scottish Government do not receive the NICs, so it's not an issue. If National Insurance and pensions were fully devolved to Scotland, then it would be an issue.

The problem here is that the Scottish Government have to eat the cost of providing the lifeline ferry service, so they have an obligation to Scottish voters to reduce the bill. If it means screwing the UK Government out of NICs, so be it.
 

Dai Corner

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The Scottish Government do not receive the NICs, so it's not an issue. If National Insurance and pensions were fully devolved to Scotland, then it would be an issue.

The problem here is that the Scottish Government have to eat the cost of providing the lifeline ferry service, so they have an obligation to Scottish voters to reduce the bill. If it means screwing the UK Government out of NICs, so be it.
Do the workers qualify for full UK state pensions and other entitlements as if they paid UK rates of NI?
 
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