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Pacer popularity in preservation

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D365

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Haven't kept up with Pacer preservation for a while; I was aware that at least 15 Class 142s have been saved for preservation and/or further use, and that a few Class 143/144 units would be saved too. But I've only just learned that 17 of the 23 144s will be seeing new homes at heritage railways, or with Vintage Trains.

Have there ever been passenger multiple units, anywhere in the world, quite as popular as the Pacers in preservation?

The 144s in particular; even if some of the units will be stripped for parts in the future, a 73% preservation rate is incredible.
 
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superjohn

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They are eminently suitable for many heritage lines, especially for low season or first/last train of the day running.

Their lightweight construction would also mean a reduced scrap value for the owning Rosco. There were probably some bargains to be had if the buyers were able to arrange removal themselves.
 

Bletchleyite

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They are eminently suitable for many heritage lines, especially for low season or first/last train of the day running.

They also have a "wall of glass" ideal for looking out, so with a heritage livery of some sort applied (some are going for classic actual Pacer liveries, but in reality if you paint anything burgundy or British Racing Green most "laypeople" will think it's classic and therefore desirable) and perhaps better seating, they will be great for scenic lines.
 

dakta

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Used to be the case that the mere suggestion of preserving one got you awarded with 'spawn of satan' status.

So being a bit of a devils advocate I'm happy to see so many getting a chance. Be interesting in a few years hopefully they will have provided a useful contribution in the various many ways that rolling stock can to a heritage railway.

Always had a soft spot for them, a run between sheffield and huddersfield was cheaper than an alton towers ticket and the bouncing about was almost equal to some of their attractions
 

DB

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First-gen DMUs are now relatively sought after and there's been a big gap since anything much along these lines was getting disposed of from the 'big' railway, and the Pacers (142/3/4) are the first second-generation ones to become available in any numbers (Most of the 141s were sold abroad, and were not noted for reliability in any case).

Probably cheap to buy, and quite cheap to run - and in working order. They will be a good solution for first/last train of the day, and off-peak weekday services.

I do wonder whether those getting 144s will do something about the seating layout though - the airline seats have a severe lack of legroom, so possibly reconfiguring into mostly bays, possibly even adding tables, would make them much more suitable for heritage lines.
 

Bletchleyite

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I do wonder whether those getting 144s will do something about the seating layout though - the airline seats have a severe lack of legroom, so possibly reconfiguring into mostly bays, possibly even adding tables, would make them much more suitable for heritage lines.

I guess it depends what it's for. If it's making use of the "wall of glass" for shuttling tourists around at low cost, they may well fit different seats and a layout with 2+2, tables and possibly even some First Class or a buffet counter, and probably paint them dark green or burgundy. If it's being a realistic Pacer, I guess they might try to revert them back to looking original, e.g. the brown and blue seat covers and orange ends and paint them Provincial blue or Skipper brown. It wouldn't surprise me if some of them end up with the seats removed entirely and used as static exhibits containing cafes, displays etc. And I'd be amazed if there wasn't at least one Pacer holiday home! :)
 

DB

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I guess it depends what it's for. If it's making use of the "wall of glass" for shuttling tourists around at low cost, they may well fit different seats and a layout with 2+2, tables and possibly even some First Class or a buffet counter, and probably paint them dark green or burgundy. If it's being a realistic Pacer, I guess they might try to revert them back to looking original, e.g. the brown and blue seat covers and orange ends and paint them Provincial blue or Skipper brown. It wouldn't surprise me if some of them end up with the seats removed entirely and used as static exhibits containing cafes, displays etc. And I'd be amazed if there wasn't at least one Pacer holiday home! :)

What seats did the 143s/144s have originally? Obviously not the Chapman and Richmond seats which they have now, neither of which looks 'old' in the sense that pres lines like! 142s do look 'old', both with the original seats and with the 2+2 ATN ones (those are actually not bad seats). Perhaps less so with the execrable Merseyrail seating.

Several Pacers are definitely going for static use - I beieve the Airedale Hospital, which is just down the road from me, is getting one (not sure whether it's there yet).
 

Bletchleyite

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Of the same type as the 142s, or is that a specifically Leyland type?

Now you're taxing my memory...but I think they were all the same style (that sort of seat was seen in basically all buses at the time, not just Leyland ones, so was easy to get). Oddly the only original interior photos you can see online seem to be from 141s and 142s.
 

D365

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I wonder will any preserved lines seek to refit the original doors, which they could probably obtain from a Leyland National?
Doubt it will be high on anyone's priority list, but would be interesting if it did happen.
 

DB

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Doubt it will be high on anyone's priority list, but would be interesting if it did happen.

And weren't they removed because they were chronically unreliable? Proobably not great for a preserved line.
 

Bletchleyite

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And weren't they removed because they were chronically unreliable? Proobably not great for a preserved line.

They were replaced because they had a tendency to come open when another unit passed at speed, particularly Mk3s on the WCML which create a pressure wave powerful enough to visibly distort the bodyside of another Mk3. Most preserved lines are single track and 25mph so this would be unlikely to happen.
 

43096

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They were replaced because they had a tendency to come open when another unit passed at speed, particularly Mk3s on the WCML which create a pressure wave powerful enough to visibly distort the bodyside of another Mk3. Most preserved lines are single track and 25mph so this would be unlikely to happen.
Why spend money they haven't got on something that doesn't need doing?

In fact, if we're going backwards with safety equipment on them, why not revert to the original brakes as well, as they're only stopping from 25mph.

I'm not sure I'd consider most of them preserved, in any case. They might be owned by preserved railways, but they are just tools to run the service. The number sold on/donated means that spares will be in short supply pretty quickly and they'll end up parked up - just like a load of first generation units have. Deep joy - more junk littering up preserved lines.
 

xotGD

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Why spend money they haven't got on something that doesn't need doing?

In fact, if we're going backwards with safety equipment on them, why not revert to the original brakes as well, as they're only stopping from 25mph.

I'm not sure I'd consider most of them preserved, in any case. They might be owned by preserved railways, but they are just tools to run the service. The number sold on/donated means that spares will be in short supply pretty quickly and they'll end up parked up - just like a load of first generation units have. Deep joy - more junk littering up preserved lines.
The knackered Pacers dumped on the depot with the service operated by a 37 on a set of Mark 1s will recreate the authentic 1980s experience!
 

JonathanH

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I wonder will any preserved lines seek to refit the original doors, which they could probably obtain from a Leyland National?
The only remaining Leyland Nationals are the ones in preservation so not sure anyone is going to be able to source six sets of doors for a 142.
 

43096

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The knackered Pacers dumped on the depot with the service operated by a 37 on a set of Mark 1s will recreate the authentic 1980s experience!
:lol:
Need to repaint the Pacers first and then dump them in sidings, so that they look like they did when new.
 

61653 HTAFC

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All Pacers originally had "bus style" bench seating.

I wonder will any preserved lines seek to refit the original doors, which they could probably obtain from a Leyland National?
Or from any number of scrap/preserved buses, or rather from companies that make and maintain bus doors... I'm pretty sure the door aperture on a Pacer is a slightly different size to those on road buses including Nationals. They used components and design principles more commonly used on buses, not literally bits from the parts bin at Leyland.

A lot of hyperbole comes into play when discussing Pacers for some reason...it's as if the concept as it really was wasn't ridiculous enough for some people and has to made even weirder!
 

Bletchleyite

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A lot of hyperbole comes into play when discussing Pacers for some reason...it's as if the concept as it really was wasn't ridiculous enough for some people and has to made even weirder!

Was it really that ridiculous? It provided a fleet of cheap DMUs that lasted about 30 years (after a few modifications), that isn't that bad.
 

61653 HTAFC

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Was it really that ridiculous? It provided a fleet of cheap DMUs that lasted about 30 years (after a few modifications), that isn't that bad.
My point was that the concept is novel enough (in terms of thinking outside the box) without embellishing it by drawing a greater parallel between the production classes and Leyland Nationals than actually existed.

The LEV prototypes on the other hand, you couldn't make up if you tried, had they not existed. The fact that BR thought the US might want them is hilarious!
 

alistairlees

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The fact that so many have been purchased by lines run on a shoestring is surely indicative of how successful they were in saving many lightly-used British Rail rural and urban lines. If they hadn’t been so cheap, many of those lines would no longer be with us.
 

43096

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Was it really that ridiculous? It provided a fleet of cheap DMUs that lasted about 30 years (after a few modifications), that isn't that bad.
Taking into account those modifications, how much did they really cost - and would it actually have been cheaper to build another 140 or so Class 150s? All with the benefit of hindsight, of course.
 

Bevan Price

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The fact that so many have been purchased by lines run on a shoestring is surely indicative of how successful they were in saving many lightly-used British Rail rural and urban lines. If they hadn’t been so cheap, many of those lines would no longer be with us.
An old, much quoted fallacy in my opinion. Most of the Pacers were inflicted on "North of England" big city suburban services (and later on Cardiff area services), none of which were in any danger when Pacers were being built. And the Cornish branches survived despite Pacers being hastily removed from them after a few years.
 

TukayAway

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Just a wibbling thought, but could some heritage lines look to provide a commuter service using their pacers?
 

JonathanH

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Just a wibbling thought, but could some heritage lines look to provide a commuter service using their pacers?
No, because there isn't demand at the right price to meet the costs (which would include staff costs).
 

30907

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No, because there isn't demand at the right price to meet the costs (which would include staff costs).
The suggestion is regularly made for the KWVR, which with the ELR must be the least unlikely candidate, but the subsidy required, even with a pacer, would still be disproportionate. And an hourly service is probably not useful enough.
 

JonathanH

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The suggestion is regularly made for the KWVR, which with the ELR must be the least unlikely candidate, but the subsidy required, even with a pacer, would still be disproportionate. And an hourly service is probably not useful enough.
Indeed, if it were feasible, they could probably have a) done it with the units they already have, or, b) got the local franchised rail operator to do so. Neither has happened. The availability of a resident class 144 unit does not change that.
 

Bletchleyite

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The suggestion is regularly made for the KWVR, which with the ELR must be the least unlikely candidate, but the subsidy required, even with a pacer, would still be disproportionate. And an hourly service is probably not useful enough.

An hourly service would be useful, but would cost more than the fares income would cover.

The Wensleydale tried and failed similarly, though it was never really going to work without them having a station reasonably central to Northallerton (and not even then).
 

DB

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Indeed, if it were feasible, they could probably have a) done it with the units they already have, or, b) got the local franchised rail operator to do so. Neither has happened. The availability of a resident class 144 unit does not change that.

Plus the 25mph speed limit, meaning that only a short line running into a decent-sized town could even consider it. I'd have thought the KWVR was the strongest candidate, and if they don't think it can work then it seems unlikely that anywhere could make it viable.
 

DJ_K666

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Or from any number of scrap/preserved buses, or rather from companies that make and maintain bus doors... I'm pretty sure the door aperture on a Pacer is a slightly different size to those on road buses including Nationals. They used components and design principles more commonly used on buses, not literally bits from the parts bin at Leyland.

A lot of hyperbole comes into play when discussing Pacers for some reason...it's as if the concept as it really was wasn't ridiculous enough for some people and has to made even weirder!
Yes I do think they are narrower, although in many cases buses had exit doors that were a slightly different size. The Bristol VR springs to mind. That said anyone who is good at metalworking/fabrication could probably knock up a few sets, thats if when they were replaced they weren't just dumped round the corner in an "Out-of-sight-of-management" kind of way. They'd be unusable now but possibly usable for measurements etc. the 141 had full size National 2 doors iirc
 
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