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Paper tickets vs E-tickets

Which is best ticketing style (in opinion)?

  • Credit card style paper tickets

  • E-tickets

  • Smartcard

  • Bar code paper tickets


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_toommm_

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As I don't have a smart phone I am keeping to paper tickets. If I could be certain I could just print off an e-ticket I would consider it.

All e-tickets can be printed off, as the very nature of an e-ticket is that it isn’t tied to a specific app (whereas m-tickets are).

As far as I’m aware, there’s no apps currently that profile I’m to give you an e-ticket, but instead sell you the more restrictive m-ticket.
 
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Haywain

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As I don't have a smart phone I am keeping to paper tickets. If I could be certain I could just print off an e-ticket I would consider it.
You can just print off an eTicket if that is what you wish to do. You can be certain of that.
 

Bletchleyite

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As I don't have a smart phone I am keeping to paper tickets. If I could be certain I could just print off an e-ticket I would consider it.

You can. GWR and TPE still have that junk on their website about needing a phone, but if you avoid First TOCs you will be fine.

The whole idea of them is that you can present them on any technology (or bit of paper) that can have a scannable barcode, including things that have not been invented yet.
 

317 forever

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Thank you all for your heads-up.

I was stung when I attempted to buy an e-ticket from the TPE website - which is of course First - and then saw I needed the app.

I phoned and they did agree to refund the original once I rebooked it.
 

_toommm_

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Thank you all for your heads-up.

I was stung when I attempted to buy an e-ticket from the TPE website - which is of course First - and then saw I needed the app.

I phoned and they did agree to refund the original once I rebooked it.

You don’t need the app anymore. You get them emailed to you, as per the example below. They’re full-fledged e-tickets, the same as most apps:


90A1E312-643B-4501-9D22-4D4B57CBF838.jpeg
 

Hadders

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As I don't have a smart phone I am keeping to paper tickets. If I could be certain I could just print off an e-ticket I would consider it.
Of course you can print an e-ticket. What makes you think you can’t?
 

AM9

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Of course you can print an e-ticket. What makes you think you can’t?
I think that the name 'e-ticket' does confuse many. There was a thread here last year where I was assuming that the 'e' meant 'electronic' until somebody (@Bletchleyite I think) explained that the online tickets that I had been using were e-tickets. There needs to be a campaign to publicise these tickets' versatility in terms that all potential users can recognise their own benefits from them. Functionally, they could then deliver nearly all that current paper tickets do as well as satisfy the wishes of those who want to be all electronic.
It would then eventually be viable to provide 2d code readers on all gatelines with back office connections to verify their validity.
 

jfollows

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You always can that’s part of the specification. I not sure how many more times we need to say this.
I know that, you know that, many people who read and contribute to this forum know that.

But people who sell e-tickets continue to say things such as
  • You need to use some kind of "app" for these tickets
  • Your ticket is not valid for break of journey (when it is)
  • Your ticket is only valid for one day (when it is valid for longer)
At the moment it appears that First Group are the major transgressors here.

I have used e-tickets before, but until I am happy that this sort of mis-selling is no longer taking place, I continue to prefer paper tickets which have never - in my experience - been printed with incorrect information of the sort that appears rampant across some parts of the rail industry for e-tickets.

E-tickets are a good idea with some appalling implementations which should not have been allowed to happen in the first place and which should not be allowed to continue now that their errors have been identified. But they clearly are allowed to continue, why? Does nobody care? Does nobody have an interest in telling customers the truth?
 

Haywain

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At the moment it appears that First Group are the major transgressors here.

I have used e-tickets before, but until I am happy that this sort of mis-selling is no longer taking place, I continue to prefer paper tickets which have never - in my experience - been printed with incorrect information of the sort that appears rampant across some parts of the rail industry for e-tickets.
So, buy eTickets but not from First Group TOCs.
 

Bletchleyite

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As others above say, as many times as punters read nonsense about it on GWR (and other) websites. Is there no way of persuading GWR to get it right?

Incorrect information pervades TOC websites. Another one I have found is the old Virgin site said the only way to change the route of a walk-up ticket is to refund and replace, which is complete tripe. I reported it to them several times and they never fixed it.

Arguably fraud if it's intentional, as the TOC would obtain pecuniary advantage by the deception of lying about ticket validity and change processes.
 

maniacmartin

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One reason get the wrong idea is because that's what the "e-" prefix implies, based on other industries' use of the prefix. If everyone misunderstands a name, one could say its a sign the wrong name was chosen.

I hate buying tickets on my phone as I find it clunky and cumbersome. The screen is too small to display much information about itineraries and restriction codes etc. Logging into TOC apps and keying in one's name and address and card details is fiddly, especially if you fat-finger the phone keyboard like I always do. I also refuse to use TOC apps as FirstGroup have scared me into thinking I might get stuck with an m-ticket*, so I use the websites only.

The initial rollout of mtickets has undermined a lot of people's trust in the system. People see eTicket and think "oh that's one of those things I got months ago that I couldn't print or transfer to another phone when my old one broke", because eTicket and mticket sound like the same thing in most ordinary peoples' heads. This is a classic example of the railway having no joined up thinking and scoring an own goal. That First haven't changed their wording despite it being known to be wrong for so long is a bigger issue than some people acknowledge. How can you expect passengers to understand what they're buying and trust they aren't getting something trapped in an app if major TOCs cant even agree on what an mTicket is? I'm at the point now where I suspect it is deliberate so they can get their app installed on more devices.

So if I'm out and about I'll use a TVM where there's a big screen and I don't have to do much typing. Just shove my card in and type a PIN, super quick. If I'm at home I use a full-sized computer. If I have time, I will choose ToD, as printed eTickets print too big to fit in a wallet nicely. If there was a compact version of the PDF that printed credit card sized I would change my view on this.

*mtickets are totally useless to me as I'm the "ticket buying person" in my household and buy tickets for others to travel, sometimes travelling without me, which obviously won't work if they're locked to my phone.
 

317 forever

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Of course you can print an e-ticket. What makes you think you can’t?
I said so 2 posts above yours.

You always can that’s part of the specification. I not sure how many more times we need to say this.
You have not read post #124 much either.

I know that, you know that, many people who read and contribute to this forum know that.

But people who sell e-tickets continue to say things such as
  • You need to use some kind of "app" for these tickets
  • Your ticket is not valid for break of journey (when it is)
  • Your ticket is only valid for one day (when it is valid for longer)
At the moment it appears that First Group are the major transgressors here.

I have used e-tickets before, but until I am happy that this sort of mis-selling is no longer taking place, I continue to prefer paper tickets which have never - in my experience - been printed with incorrect information of the sort that appears rampant across some parts of the rail industry for e-tickets.

E-tickets are a good idea with some appalling implementations which should not have been allowed to happen in the first place and which should not be allowed to continue now that their errors have been identified. But they clearly are allowed to continue, why? Does nobody care? Does nobody have an interest in telling customers the truth?
Thank you. You have summed up exactly where I am with rail e-tickets. 8-)
 

miklcct

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After yesterday's experience, I am still curious why there are still so many people using paper tickets.

You don't want to risk missing an hourly train queuing for an TVM and finding how the heck you can use it, right?

In my last train trip yesterday, I was still at home 9 minutes before the train departed, and my home is located 9 minutes walking distance from the train station. By the time I ran to the train station, the train was already at the platform, and my e-ticket was on my phone.
 

mikeg

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It really depends. I often buy e tickets out of convenience but deep down inside I prefer paper tickets. I've never had a paper ticket fail to decrypt, rovers and rangers are available in paper, they have tube validity where applicable and crucially I'm not tracked by a database. Plus I get to support my friendly local ticket office who can give advice to less knowledgeable passengers and provide other forms of assistance. Oh and it's easier to change of route excess a paper ticket.

On the plus side I can store a backup of an e-ticket and it's easier to print off, though I have to bear the cost of this.

I'm glad both exist though though I personally wish m tickets a quick and painless death,along with digital railcards and smart season tickets. But they'll prize the orange bits of card from my cold dead fingers
 

Wallsendmag

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I said so 2 posts above yours.


You have not read post #124 much either.


Thank you. You have summed up exactly where I am with rail e-tickets. 8-)
Maybe not but I have read the RDG ticketing spec and partaken in the implementation of eTicking for what I consider to be one of the leading eTicket TOCs. If you need an app to use TPE eTickets then they arent eTickets at all they are mTickets
 

mikeg

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Maybe not but I have read the RDG ticketing spec and partaken in the implementation of eTicking for what I consider to be one of the leading eTicket TOCs. If you need an app to use TPE eTickets then they arent eTickets at all they are mTickets

The TPE app did last time I used it also send you a .pdf via email, though didn't particularly shout loudly about it. With its misleading info on BoJ which would be seized upon by a desperate RPI and tendency of tickets to disappear (which means they really should be shouting about the .pdf, I consider it to be about the worst eticket implementation there is.

LNER does e-tickets right. Ability to save to Google Pay, .pdf files, in app etickets (though the barcode looks different to on the .pdf - anyone able to tell me why this is?) and correct ticketing info with a link to the restriction code. Add to that I have a 5% offer with RBS Rewards currently and it's my 'go-to' place for buying e-tickets. I still think the tracking involved in e-tickets is creepy though.
 

Cdd89

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I certainly wish more people used paper tickets or smartcards, as it’s no fun getting stuck behind people who don’t know how to use their phone; far fewer possibilities for error for the novice user with a simple piece of card (I know I was challenged on this point a while back but I stand by it!). People waving it generally in the direction of the scanner at 20% brightness are commonplace. On the plus side some people bring up their barcode and then tap the Oyster reader, which if it charges them serves them right <D (though most people don’t have express travel enabled?).

I personally like eTickets because there’s no risk of them being swallowed up by the barrier and always use them for personal travel. But enough clients have dinosaur policies of only expensing paper tickets that I always default to that to save arguments.
 

Wallsendmag

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The TPE app did last time I used it also send you a .pdf via email, though didn't particularly shout loudly about it. With its misleading info on BoJ which would be seized upon by a desperate RPI and tendency of tickets to disappear (which means they really should be shouting about the .pdf, I consider it to be about the worst eticket implementation there is.

LNER does e-tickets right. Ability to save to Google Pay, .pdf files, in app etickets (though the barcode looks different to on the .pdf - anyone able to tell me why this is?) and correct ticketing info with a link to the restriction code. Add to that I have a 5% offer with RBS Rewards currently and it's my 'go-to' place for buying e-tickets. I still think the tracking involved in e-tickets is creepy though.
We Think it’s a great bonus
 

Haywain

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The TPE app did last time I used it also send you a .pdf via email, though didn't particularly shout loudly about it. With its misleading info on BoJ which would be seized upon by a desperate RPI and tendency of tickets to disappear (which means they really should be shouting about the .pdf, I consider it to be about the worst eticket implementation there is.

LNER does e-tickets right. Ability to save to Google Pay, .pdf files, in app etickets (though the barcode looks different to on the .pdf - anyone able to tell me why this is?) and correct ticketing info with a link to the restriction code. Add to that I have a 5% offer with RBS Rewards currently and it's my 'go-to' place for buying e-tickets. I still think the tracking involved in e-tickets is creepy though.
The tracking is to prevent misuse. Nobody cares who is using the ticket (unless it’s a season ticket).
 

mikeg

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The tracking is to prevent misuse. Nobody cares who is using the ticket (unless it’s a season ticket).
And such misuse would be? Would you provide such info to the police say? If so, would they require a warrant of some sort? How about intelligence services? Are the data sold or shared, either in 'anonymised' or personalised form? Would it be used to accuse me of delay repay fraud the one day I finish work late and find the later train is delayed? Or vice versa if I finish early as per AGA's approach?
 

superjohn

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LNER does e-tickets right. Ability to save to Google Pay, .pdf files, in app etickets (though the barcode looks different to on the .pdf - anyone able to tell me why this is?)
How different? It may just be the same data in a different format. There are three formats of ‘square’ barcode that I know of:
Aztec - Has the reference square in the middle and seems to be used on all the etickets I have seen.
QR Code - Reference squares in three corners
Datamatrix - No reference squares but has solid lines on the bottom/left edge to show the boundary and equal on and off lines on the top/right edge to show frequency.

Any modern barcode scanner will happily read all three. In my experience datamatrix is best because of its enhanced checking and correcting capability. Up to 30% of the code can be missing or corrupt and it will still read.
 

alistairlees

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How different? It may just be the same data in a different format. There are three formats of ‘square’ barcode that I know of:
Aztec - Has the reference square in the middle and seems to be used on all the etickets I have seen.
QR Code - Reference squares in three corners
Datamatrix - No reference squares but has solid lines on the bottom/left edge to show the boundary and equal on and off lines on the top/right edge to show frequency.

Any modern barcode scanner will happily read all three. In my experience datamatrix is best because of its enhanced checking and correcting capability. Up to 30% of the code can be missing or corrupt and it will still read.
They will both be Aztec. They should both be the same.
 

Bletchleyite

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We Think it’s a great bonus

I don't see it as an issue, but I do think the passenger should be able to see what has been recorded on their e-ticket so if there is a problem they are fully informed of what is being discussed, as they are if their paper ticket is stamped.

It is slightly ironic that as tickets aren't personalised I guess such data would not come within scope of a GDPR Subject Access Request, however it is more useful to have it while on the journey, so if for example a member of staff has incorrectly marked a ticket as cancelled you can see they have and go and have the matter resolved before it poses a problem.
 

lightbulb

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It really depends. I often buy e tickets out of convenience but deep down inside I prefer paper tickets. I've never had a paper ticket fail to decrypt, rovers and rangers are available in paper, they have tube validity where applicable and crucially I'm not tracked by a database. Plus I get to support my friendly local ticket office who can give advice to less knowledgeable passengers and provide other forms of assistance. Oh and it's easier to change of route excess a paper ticket.

On the plus side I can store a backup of an e-ticket and it's easier to print off, though I have to bear the cost of this.

I'm glad both exist though though I personally wish m tickets a quick and painless death,along with digital railcards and smart season tickets. But they'll prize the orange bits of card from my cold dead fingers

I am one of the estimated 10% of the population that do not use or own a smartphone, and (by choice) have only the most basic of mobile phones that does not even have the ability to send or receive text messages. This is a decision I took back in 2008 when purchasing my (still current) mobile phone, and is one which I have never yet regretted, as smartphones seem to have tracking built in, and as far as I understand it, this tracking cannot be disabled. If paper tickets are indeed eventually withdrawn and replaced by e-tickets, then I will, as far as I can see, be unable to purchase a ticket, and therefore will be unable to travel by train outside the London area.

I only have a few years to go before qualifying for a 60+ Oyster, but would rather not have to be limited to rail travel within the 60+ Oyster area. I'm sure some may point out—quite rightly—that this is a self-imposed limitation, but unless we choose to accept absolutely everything that technology offers indiscriminately, then we each have to decide on where to draw those lines which we choose not to cross.
 

alistairlees

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I am one of the estimated 10% of the population that do not use or own a smartphone, and (by choice) have only the most basic of mobile phones that does not even have the ability to send or receive text messages. This is a decision I took back in 2008 when purchasing my (still current) mobile phone, and is one which I have never yet regretted, as smartphones seem to have tracking built in, and as far as I understand it, this tracking cannot be disabled. If paper tickets are indeed eventually withdrawn and replaced by e-tickets, then I will, as far as I can see, be unable to purchase a ticket, and therefore will be unable to travel by train outside the London area.

I only have a few years to go before qualifying for a 60+ Oyster, but would rather not have to be limited to rail travel within the 60+ Oyster area. I'm sure some may point out—quite rightly—that this is a self-imposed limitation, but unless we choose to accept absolutely everything that technology offers indiscriminately, then we each have to decide on where to draw those lines which we choose not to cross.
You will still be able to buy tickets from station booking offices or from ticket vending machines.

You can also buy eTickets online, and print them off (they come as a pdf) - no smartphone is required. Of course, you may not have a printer - but asking someone else to print it for you, or printing at the local library, are also options.

In some urban areas, in addition to London, you won’t need to buy a ticket - you can use contactless pay as you go.
 

superjohn

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I am one of the estimated 10% of the population that do not use or own a smartphone, and (by choice) have only the most basic of mobile phones that does not even have the ability to send or receive text messages. This is a decision I took back in 2008 when purchasing my (still current) mobile phone, and is one which I have never yet regretted, as smartphones seem to have tracking built in, and as far as I understand it, this tracking cannot be disabled.
Even the most basic of mobile phones inherently tracks its movements. It has to regularly report its location to ‘the system’ to enable calls to be routed to it. Similarly, if you are on the internet on any device (and you must be to be posting on here) your activities are being tracked. You are on CCTV in loads of places. Do you ever use a card to pay for anything? All the above can be put together to track you in quite some detail if someone with access to it all really wanted to. The point is for 99.999% of the population, nobody does. Your anonymity comes from that rather than any efforts to avoid tracking.

I understand that people are suspicious of tracking but there really is a lot of misunderstanding about it. Usually originating in the more lurid newspapers and nonsense on social media. The same goes for online banking. Regardless of what the Daily Mail or You and Yours will have you believe, hackers cannot empty your account at the touch of a button. Despite this many people believe they can and treat it with suspicion.

I am a recent convert to Etickets and I love them, purely for the convenience. The last one I bought was a Keighley to Leeds single on Tuesday. I bought it half an hour before departure while still sat on the KWVR train and it was a Northern last minute advance - £3 vs the £5.40 a walk up ticket would have cost. My alternatives would have been to pay by card at the station so trackable, or find a cashpoint locally and withdraw cash to pay so the withdrawal location would be recorded and my subsequent movements almost certainly on CCTV.

If, for whatever reason, you want to avoid being tracked it takes a lot more effort than not having a smartphone, just ask a drug dealer! Avoiding smartphones just denies you the many benefits and gives you minimal extra privacy.
 

Bletchleyite

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I am one of the estimated 10% of the population that do not use or own a smartphone, and (by choice) have only the most basic of mobile phones that does not even have the ability to send or receive text messages. This is a decision I took back in 2008 when purchasing my (still current) mobile phone, and is one which I have never yet regretted, as smartphones seem to have tracking built in, and as far as I understand it, this tracking cannot be disabled.

It's a bit obscure as to how you do it, but yes, you can disable location history on an Android phone (which is what they use for pushing advertising). I have disabled it on mine.

Even if disabled nothing stops the authorities tracking you via "cell locate" on any mobile, even yours, in any case. They can if they wish get a quite accurate position based on 3 cell towers your phone can see. So if this is of concern to you you should get rid of even your basic phone, and probably not drive a car either due to ANPR.

And I'd advise declining the 60+ Oyster, for that matter, and paying cash only. They can track that as you tap in and out too!

(Or maybe be a little less paranoid :) )

But as regards e-tickets, a paper ticket can actually be an e-ticket. I don't think the railway is likely to go to mobile phone based ticketing only. You would be able to buy and print one yourself from your computer, or a TVM will probably print one for you too, it just will have a barcode and not a magstripe.

The thing I wouldn't be surprised to see is them stopping taking cash within 10-20 years, but we shall see. Provided you have a debit card, no problem there really.
 

Haywain

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We are increasingly moving towards smartcards and eTickets and away from CCST. That will also result in fewer ticket offices and fewer TVMs in time. For those who choose not to avail themselves of a smartphone it may be appropriate to invest in a printer as the alternative to allow use of eTickets alongside online booking.
 
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