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Passenger Complaint regarding Gender

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Ediswan

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I'm 46 now and was at high school between 1985 and 1992, when talking about homosexuality was actually illegal. Extraordinary when you think about it. Homophobic bullying was absolutely rife as well.
It was promotion of homosexuaility by local authorities which was prohibited by law. I expect there were authorities and individual schools which decided the (edit) best simplest way to avoid being accused of crossing that vague line decided to avoid all discussion of the subject (or even to misrepresent what the law said).
 

Journeyman

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It was promotion of homosexuaility by local authorities which was prohibited by law. I expect there were authorities and individual schools which decided the (edit) best simplest way to avoid being accused of crossing that vague line decided to avoid all discussion of the subject (or even to misrepresent what the law said).
Exactly, that's what ended up happening. "Promotion" was a really stupid idea and term. If someone isn't gay, you're not going to make them gay by talking about gay relationships, and if someone is gay, you're not going to straighten them out by not talking about them!

And there we are. That's how easy it is, despite the lecture you just gave everyone about about such things, you did what you're saying others should not.
I never said I was perfect, and I'm happy to correct myself.
 

DynamicSpirit

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If someone is offended by something I've said, however it was meant, it's reasonable for them to say so, and it's reasonable for me not to say it to them again. It's part of being a considerate person.

OK, let's see how that works out:

Inspector: Can I see your ticket please
Ticket-dodger: I'm offended that you ask to see my ticket. It makes me feel like you don't trust me.
Inspector (following Journeyman's advice): I'm so sorry, I won't ask to see your ticket again. Please carry on!

(Obviously there are many situations when it is reasonable not to say something again because it has caused offence. The point this example hopefully demonstrates is that that is not always true. You really do need to consider whether or not it was reasonable for someone to be offended. It's neither right nor practical to always defer to someone just because they claim to be offended.)
 

Journeyman

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OK, let's see how that works out:

Inspector: Can I see your ticket please
Ticket-dodger: I'm offended that you ask to see my ticket. It makes me feel like you don't trust me.
Inspector (following Journeyman's advice): I'm so sorry, I won't ask to see your ticket again. Please carry on!
That's not relevant to this example and is completely not what's being discussed here, and you know it.
 

DynamicSpirit

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That's not relevant to this example and is completely not what's being discussed here, and you know it.

On the contrary, it is perfectly relevant. You appear to be trying to argue that you should always avoid saying something if someone is offended by whatever you're saying. I'm merely giving an example that demonstrates how absurd that position is.
 

Sprinter153

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A lot of people feel very threatened by the mere existence of trans and non-binary people. This is one of the main reasons that they're murdered, assaulted or commit suicide far more frequently than straight and/or cis people.

The claim of a transgender murder epidemic is frequently made but it certainly isn't the case in this country.

Even in Brazil, which as per the above chart has by far the highest rate of murders of transgender people, there were 41,635 total murders in 2019 - and of those only 124 were transgender. That's 0.3%. Meanwhile 1,314 [3.16%] were women.

Meanwhile, in 2020, Galop, a UK LGBT+ anti-violence charity, surveyed a group of transgender people. They found that 17% of respondents had experienced sexual assault or the threat of sexual assault. In comparison, the ONS found 22.9% of women have experienced sexual assault or attempted sexual assault.

The data I could find does not support the assertion that the rate of violence against transgender people is higher than the rate of violence against women and girls.
 

Journeyman

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On the contrary, it is perfectly relevant. You appear to be trying to argue that you should always avoid saying something if someone is offended by whatever you're saying. I'm merely giving an example that demonstrates how absurd that position is.
No. Your comment is absurd. The phrase "apples and oranges" springs to mind. This discussion is about forms of address, inclusion and identity, not dealing with fare evasion.

The claim of a transgender murder epidemic is frequently made but it certainly isn't the case in this country.

Even in Brazil, which as per the above chart has by far the highest rate of murders of transgender people, there were 41,635 total murders in 2019 - and of those only 124 were transgender. That's 0.3%. Meanwhile 1,314 [3.16%] were women.

Meanwhile, in 2020, Galop, a UK LGBT+ anti-violence charity, surveyed a group of transgender people. They found that 17% of respondents had experienced sexual assault or the threat of sexual assault. In comparison, the ONS found 22.9% of women have experienced sexual assault or attempted sexual assault.

The data I could find does not support the assertion that the rate of violence against transgender people is higher than the rate of violence against women and girls.
Fair enough, the data I've seen is American, where the case rate is much higher. It's still an important issue, though. Trans people still get a lot of extremely shoddy treatment, including being openly mocked and laughed at, and they're pretty much the last group in society it is seen as socially acceptable in some quarters to mock in that way.
 

SteveM70

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This has to stop. Its ridiculous. We are supposed to have freedom of speech. People should not have to worry about losing their job by saying some wrong in ordinary conversation.

Where has there been any mention of anyone losing their job?


On the contrary, it is perfectly relevant. You appear to be trying to argue that you should always avoid saying something if someone is offended by whatever you're saying. I'm merely giving an example that demonstrates how absurd that position is.

Of course it isn’t. Being offended by the terms used to address you is perfectly understandable and reasonable (even if some of us - me included - struggle with the specifics of this case, and the way the victim raised the issue is abhorrent). Being offended because of being questioned about your behaviour is totally different
 

DynamicSpirit

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Of course it isn’t. Being offended by the terms used to address you is perfectly understandable and reasonable (even if some of us - me included - struggle with the specifics of this case, and the way the victim raised the issue is abhorrent).

Really? To my mind, that is a pretty strange idea of what justifies taking offense.

I would say that the times when it may be reasonable to be offended are
  1. If someone is deliberately trying to belittle you or cause offense.
  2. If someone is seeking to discriminate against you or cause prejudice against you.
Here we are talking about someone claiming offence because of someone else innocently, and without any malign intention, using the language that they (presumably) have always used and understood to be a polite way to address groups of people. Claiming offence at something like that is not only unreasonable, but I would say amounts in itself to intolerance and prejudice against others (namely, prejudice against other people who happen to use language a bit differently from you).
 

Leyland155

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In cases like this, I'm reminded of an episode of Doctor Who from the David Tennant era (circa 2006). Passengers on board a tourist shuttle were addressed as "Ladies, gentlemen and variations thereupon", so perhaps this would actually work in common usage!

In all serious though, whilst an individual has the right to identify as whatever gender they choose (which I would happily accept), to complain publicly about an innocent and jovial announcement is quite despairing and something which was completely unnecessary in my opinion. However, in a different scenario in which said individual had politely asked to be addressed by gender-neutral terms in conversation and was refused, that would be a different situation and one which would potentially be worthy of complaint. Though I don't claim to know much about gender-neutrality, as some others have mentioned the distinction between gender and sex is an important one. Gender can be classed as a social construct, whereas sex is quite definitely a biological one and consequently there are only two sexes but there are, in theory, multiple genders.
 

WelshBluebird

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A lot of people feel very threatened by the mere existence of trans and non-binary people. This is one of the main reasons that they're murdered, assaulted or commit suicide far more frequently than straight and/or cis people.
Absolutely. There's a reason I try to use the word partner when I am talking about the person I am with (but again, as you've said in another post, we are human beings and so aren't perfect and sometimes I do slip up, and they are more than OK with that as long as I make the effort generally!).
Ok, I'll shut up. Seems like you can only comment if opinions match up.
Not at all, you absolutely can comment regardless of your opinion (just don't be surprised if some people disagree with it) - I just find it a bit odd when people go off on a bit of a rant and include as part of it "I don't care" because if you actually didn't care you wouldn't be going on a rant!

In this specific case, someone saying "everyone" instead of "ladies and gentleman" literally does not affect you one bit so there is literally no reason to be against it, but for people who do identify as non binary / genderfluid / trans, the choice of language can make a large difference. Not really because one announcement on its own its a problem per sey, but because it likely isn't the only time during their everyday lives that they will be excluded or demeaned because of who they are (imagine if someone kept on calling your "Mrs" when you are actually male, I am sure the first few times you'd laugh of it or ignore it, but imagine if that happened multiple times every single day of your life, it would soon become pretty grating to say the least). Normalising inclusive language and actions isn't a bad thing! And it is part of the reason why someone may have their pronouns on a badge / in their social media bio even if they aren't non binary / genderfluid / trans etc - the more people make those things visible, the more normal having those things visible (and potentially different to what you may expect) becomes.
I just hope the Guard is not in trouble.
So do I.
its worth saying, and I didn't say this last night as I was posting from my phone so didn't want to type a long message, I do think this has been really badly handled. Something as small as changing "ladies and gentleman" to "everyone" isn't difficult and it shouldn't need a heavy handed approach. ToC's already expect their staff to make announcements in a certain way, this is no different really.

Really? To my mind, that is a pretty strange idea of what justifies taking offense.

If you are male and you are repeatedly called "Mrs" - that would annoy you yes? If multiple people you meet did that time and time again, despite you asking them not to, eventually you may "snap" at one of them. Even if that person may have been acting totally innocently and not been one of the previous examples. That is exactly what is happening here. Hell even take gender out of it and lets say people call you the wrong name day in day out. Eventually you will have had enough of it.
 

Journeyman

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However, in a different scenario in which said individual had politely asked to be addressed by gender-neutral terms in conversation and was refused, that would be a different situation and one which would potentially be worthy of complaint.
Bang on. This really, really needed to be handled better, and has devalued the issue somewhat.
 

Scotrail314209

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In cases like this, I'm reminded of an episode of Doctor Who from the David Tennant era (circa 2006). Passengers on board a tourist shuttle were addressed as "Ladies, gentlemen and variations thereupon", so perhaps this would actually work in common usage!
Good episode ;)

In all seriousness though, it does seem "Ladies and Gentlemen" is becoming a little bit outdated, nor do I really see railway staff calling passengers "Sir/Ma'am" when asking for a ticket.
 

Journeyman

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If you are male and you are repeatedly called "Mrs" - that would annoy you yes? If multiple people you meet did that time and time again, despite you asking them not to, eventually you may "snap" at one of them. Even if that person may have been acting totally innocently and not been one of the previous examples. That is exactly what is happening here. Hell even take gender out of it and lets say people call you the wrong name day in day out. Eventually you will have had enough of it.
I do very occasionally get misgendered when dealing with people online or by mail etc. because although I have a first name that is mostly a male one, there are some women who have it as well, although generally spell it differently. I don't usually mind because it's an easy mistake to make, but if I happened all the time, I suspect I'd tire of it very quickly indeed.

My surname constantly gets mis-spelt as well, despite being very common, and that really gets on my (metaphorical) tits!
 

westv

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It's all just labels. I don't care about labels. The only ones I'm interested in the washing labels on my clothes.
There's more to life then getting concerned about whether someone uses the right label or not. In some parts of the world people can be sentenced to death because of their sexual preferences. Now, that IS important.
 

Journeyman

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It's all just labels. I don't care about labels. The only ones I'm interested in the washing labels on my clothes.
There's more to life then getting concerned about whether someone uses the right label or not. In some parts of the world people can be sentenced to death because of their sexual preferences. Now, that IS important.
But if people constantly disrespect you by calling you a different name to the one you've chosen and address you using the wrong gender, would it annoy you? If it happened to you every single day of your life, would you get angry about it?

Of course you would.
 

westv

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But if people constantly disrespect you by calling you a different name to the one you've chosen and address you using the wrong gender, would it annoy you? If it happened to you every single day of your life, would you get angry about it?

Of course you would.
No. If I was in a group of women it wouldn't bother me at all if we were addressed as ladies/women/females. It wouldn't bother me at all if it happened every time I was with a group of the opposite sex.
 

Journeyman

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No. If I was in a group of women it wouldn't bother me at all if we were addressed as ladies/women/females. It wouldn't bother me at all if it happened every time I was with a group of the opposite sex.
I'm not convinced that's an entirely honest answer, and even if it is, you're not allowed to decide whether it does or doesn't offend someone else.
 

Darandio

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I'm not convinced that's an entirely honest answer, and even if it is, you're not allowed to decide whether it does or doesn't offend someone else.

Calling people liars, classy. I believe the question you also asked was whether @westv would be offended, not that they should decide if someone else should be.

This thread really has descended into some bizarre kind of mind control 'this is how you should think' vibe.
 

Journeyman

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Calling people liars, classy. I believe the question you also asked was whether @westv would be offended, not that they should decide if someone else should be.

This thread really has descended into some bizarre kind of mind control 'this is how you should think' vibe.
I'm just saying that if a core part of your identity was mis-identified more or less constantly, it would annoy you. It's also not hard to understand why it would annoy people. What I'm getting here is an "I think it's trivial, therefore so should you" attitude.

I just think there's a lack of empathy here. I know the person concerned has behaved badly, but that doesn't change the fact that it is an important issue.
 

_toommm_

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As people, we have to move forward. There is and always will be a debate about prescriptivism and descriptivism, but as technology, society, and attitudes move, so must language. Whereas forty years ago, maybe even less, a male identifying as a female, or vice versa, would be seen as abnormal; we now need to accept it, and where possible, respect others.

Whilst I have been ‘guilty’ of using ladies and gentleman for tannoys, we do need to adapt and as a fervent descriptivist, I believe so should language. Whilst I don’t agree with the way and the platform used to put the guard’s language was put into question (even more so considering that the original poster on Twitter is an RMT LGBTQ+ Rep), it definitely doesn’t hurt to move forward and use more encompassing terms, such as passengers, folks, everybody etc etc.
 

DynamicSpirit

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But if people constantly disrespect you by calling you a different name to the one you've chosen

That's only disrespecting you if they are deliberately calling you a name that you have told them you don't like. If they are calling you a name that you happen not to like but they don't know you don't like that name, then it's a misunderstanding - it's not disrespecting you.

and address you using the wrong gender, would it annoy you? If it happened to you every single day of your life, would you get angry about it?

Of course you would.

Getting annoyed isn't the same as getting offended. I'm sure we all have lots of things in our lives that are slightly annoying or that we wish would be a bit different. Hopefully though, most people are emotionally mature enough not to start taking offence at things that are merely somewhat annoying (where there is clearly no malign intention).
 

westv

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I'm not convinced that's an entirely honest answer, and even if it is, you're not allowed to decide whether it does or doesn't offend someone else.
It's honest even if it's not the answer you want.
 

Leyland155

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Bang on. This really, really needed to be handled better, and has devalued the issue somewhat.
Exactly, it's an important discussion to have but it's equally important to choose which battles to fight as, like you say, the issue can be at risk of becoming devalued (or ridiculed) if handled improperly, as was the case here.

Good episode ;)

In all seriousness though, it does seem "Ladies and Gentlemen" is becoming a little bit outdated, nor do I really see railway staff calling passengers "Sir/Ma'am" when asking for a ticket.
Glad someone knew which one I was talking about :D

I suppose it all depends on one's idea of traditional politeness and etiquette. In my experience, addressing some customers as Sir/Ma'am can actually help with putting them at ease and can, potentially, make one come across as being more empathetic. Of course, this is just my subjective experience.
 

WestRiding

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Calling people liars, classy. I believe the question you also asked was whether @westv would be offended, not that they should decide if someone else should be.

This thread really has descended into some bizarre kind of mind control 'this is how you should think' vibe.
Seems Journeyman likes to twist what people say to suit the personal agenda. Question though, regarding being identified wrong, whats the solution? Its unfair to expect everyone to be a mind reader and know the situation. For example, if someone has a predominantly blokes name, why is it wrong for people to innocently believe they are talking to a bloke?
 

westv

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Seems Journeyman likes to twist what people say to suit the personal agenda. Question though, regarding being identified wrong, whats the solution? Its unfair to expect everyone to be a mind reader and know the situation. For example, if someone has a predominantly blokes name, why is it wrong for people to innocently believe they are talking to a bloke?
The other point is that the person concerned wasn't directly addressed. He was just one of a number.
 
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