Passenger "Mutiny" Due To Missed Stop At Swindon

[Wolfie]

"The train had previously been advertised as calling additionally at Swindon (and Chippenham), but those additional stops were withdrawn during the journey"

I would suggest, in the context of this train, withdrawing stops during a journey is an act of complete desperation or madness.

I'm sure that the rail staff on here will hate this but in those circumstances l'd pull the passcom every damned time. Treat passengers like crap and you will get a reaction. I sincerely hope that it cost GWR megabucks. Perhaps we need airline levels of compensation to sharpen some minds...

 

[MotCO]

I'm sure that the rail staff on here will hate this but in those circumstances l'd pull the passcom every damned time. Treat passengers like crap and you will get a reaction. I sincerely hope that it cost GWR megabucks. Perhaps we need airline levels of compensation to sharpen some minds...

Dwlay Repay on a packed train that was over 2 hours late will be a lot.

 

[Djgr]

Only if you've got all the information on knowledge available that was available to the control staff at the time. Which we don't.

Might be a good idea for the sake of the TOC for this to end up in the public domain

 

[thejuggler]

Reminds me of a Reading train I caught at Waterloo which left pretty late. After we had all got on and left, with the departure boards still showing all stops, they decided to make it non-stop to Staines. But the PA in our carriage was dicky and we couldn't make out what the guard was saying. Some very upset passengers got off at Staines to catch a train back... Fortunately no PIS that time.

Similar situation on my last Azuma trip. Change of stock meant seat bookings were all over the place. There was an announcment to move to a non reserved carriage but the PA was useless.

 

[Ianno87]

Might be a good idea for the sake of the TOC for this to end up in the public domain

I'm guessing it's probably quite complicated and will get picked up on by the press for some clickbait headline that takes it wildly out of context or makes it look ridiculous (when it isn't).

E.g. "wrong kind of snow / leaves on the line".

 

[MotCO]

I'm sure that the rail staff on here will hate this but in those circumstances l'd pull the passcom every damned time. Treat passengers like crap and you will get a reaction. I sincerely hope that it cost GWR megabucks. Perhaps we need airline levels of compensation to sharpen some minds...

Delay Repay on a packed train that was over 2 hours late will be a lot.

 

[Djgr]

I'm guessing it's probably quite complicated and will get picked up on by the press for some clickbait headline that takes it wildly out of context or makes it look ridiculous (when it isn't).

E.g. "wrong kind of snow / leaves on the line".

"(when it isn't)"

unless of course when it is!

 

[Parallel]

I'm sure that the rail staff on here will hate this but in those circumstances l'd pull the passcom every damned time. Treat passengers like crap and you will get a reaction. I sincerely hope that it cost GWR megabucks. Perhaps we need airline levels of compensation to sharpen some minds...

It may have actually been quicker for the passengers to just travel to the next stop and then come back. I know this certainly isn’t ideal but surely better than passengers delaying a whole train for over an hour before reversing, then preceding onwards and then booting everyone else off at Reading onto another packed train.

I’m not in a position to comment fully as it is not clear why these stops were removed, but taking stops out of an overcrowded train that were previously agreed is risky and will only lead to passengers being confused and frustrated.

 

[irish_rail]

I can't help but think if there weren't so many pointless repetitive announcements on trains passengers would be less inclined to zone out and may actually remove the headphones and listen when they hear the PA come to life.

I have no insider knowledge but I strongly suspect that's what's happened in this instance.

And for those saying pulling the passcomm is acceptable, in my opinion it isn't. This was not a safety emergency and the knock on effects to a far greater number of passengers was huge. Also extremely stressful for traincrew (I can assure you).

 

[Islineclear3_1]

It may have actually been quicker for the passengers to just travel to the next stop and then come back. I know this certainly isn’t ideal but surely better than passengers delaying a whole train for over an hour before reversing, then preceding onwards and then booting everyone else off at Reading onto another packed train.

Probably, but then collective hysteria puts pay to any common sense or rational reasoning

 

[Wolfie]

I can't help but think if there weren't so many pointless repetitive announcements on trains passengers would be less inclined to zone out and may actually remove the headphones and listen when they hear the PA come to life.

I have no insider knowledge but I strongly suspect that's what's happened in this instance.

And for those saying pulling the passcomm is acceptable, in my opinion it isn't. This was not a safety emergency and the knock on effects to a far greater number of passengers was huge. Also extremely stressful for traincrew (I can assure you).

Re your last para the railway and it's employees may believe that they have the right to do whatever they want with me. I certainly don't agree and won't permit it. If that means pulling the passcom then so be it. Take me to Court and l will make damned sure that it's all over the media, my MP Jeremy Corbyn is involved and l will request a jury trial. You better believe that 12 members of Joe Public won't sympathise with a TOC.

A former colleague took a bus company to court for unlawful arrest after a driver decided not to bother stopping. I believe that he won too.... At the time l laughed but l am now increasingly sympathetic.

 

[ivorytoast28]

And for those saying pulling the passcomm is acceptable, in my opinion it isn't. This was not a safety emergency and the knock on effects to a far greater number of passengers was huge. Also extremely stressful for traincrew (I can assure you).

In retrospect it was not a great idea, but they were right to pull the emergency if it was expected to stop and didn't as surely it could indicate concern about why the driver hadn't stopped

 

[Horizon22]

Perhaps the repeated pulling of the passcomm was due to passengers initially being told the train was not going back to Swindon ?

As per practically every incident the core problem is communication.

Additional stop orders were originally in place for Bath & Chippenham on 1A58 (due to the crew shortages and trains were starting at Swindon and a 2-hour gap in service), but the train was apparently by the point of Bath severely overcrowded (the fact it seeminly lost minutes 7-8 minutes there would suggest so, even accounting for the additional stop), so the crew insisted Chippenham & Swindon (Can't see Swindon being originally in the plan, so there was definitely confusion between control / crews / stations at some point; it would make sense though for connections) were then removed. I'm not surprised with it being that busy as a W. Country train arriving into Paddington in the late evening on a Sunday (even if it is October now).

Obviously with the chopping and changing, that's led to confusion although from what I've heard the crew made announcements although it was not heard in every carriage, which may be a fault with the PA. As with other passcom 'exponential problems', the overcrowding of the train made it harder to reset them, and the continued waiting lead to more passcoms etc. Train terminated at Reading which had its own problems and caused concerns over platform overcrowding there and another 387 was deployed to move passengers onwards.

Ultimately GWR's weekend shortages of high-speed crew aren't getting much better right now, and I'd be surprised if they improved substantially before Christmas.

 

[Wolfie]

As per practically every incident the core problem is communication.

Additional stop orders were originally in place for Bath & Chippenham on 1A58 (due to the crew shortages and trains were starting at Swindon and a 2-hour gap in service), but the train was apparently by the point of Bath severely overcrowded (the fact it seeminly lost minutes 7-8 minutes there would suggest so, even accounting for the additional stop), so the crew insisted Chippenham & Swindon (Can't see this being originally in the plan, so there was definitely confusion between control / crews / stations at some point) were then removed. I'm not surprised with it being that busy as a W. Country train arriving into Paddington in the late evening on a Sunday (even if it is October now).

Obviously with the chopping and changing, that's led to confusion although from what I've heard the crew made announcements although it was not heard in every carriage, which may be a fault with the PA. As with other passcom 'exponential problems', the overcrowding of the train made it harder to reset them, and the continued waiting lead to more passcoms etc. Train terminated at Reading which had its own problems and caused concerns over platform overcrowding there and another 387 was deployed to move passengers onwards.

Ultimately GWR's weekend shortages of high-speed crew aren't getting much better right now, and I'd be surprised if they improved substantially before Christmas.

Your first sentence is indeed absolutely key. The railway is sadly in general appalling at communication as soon as any issues arise.

 

[irish_rail]

Ultimately GWR's weekend shortages of high-speed crew aren't getting much better right now, and I'd be surprised if they improved substantially before Chrustmas.

This is also a problem on the west side , not just high speed.
It doesnt help that many of the traincrew work diagrams are so damn unproductive now.
There was a time when a train from Plymouth to London would have been driven by one driver throughout. Now, they prefer to mix it up and have perhaps 3 or 4 drivers on a trip like this when one would do.
As I Understand it resources in Swindon are tearing their hair out at the minute and there is rumour of a complete diagram re write in December to make diagrams more productive and reliable again (ie one driver driving a full trip, not changing over multiple times on route).
We will see if this actually transpires. As much as I prefer driving Plymouth to Exeter then sitting around for several hours twiddling my thumbs, in the long run, we really should be going Paddington more often for the sake of the fare paying customers!

 

[43066]

An unannounced fail to call is a valid reason to pull it, as it creates entirely valid concern that there is a medical problem with the driver or train. Indeed, the Caledonian Sleeper runaway was stopped by the guard pulling it, albeit not due to a fail to call, which demonstrates what this could avoid.

Pulling it repeatedly out of anger once the train had been safely stopped is, however, rather silly and only made things worse.

To be fair a driver medical emergency is best dealt with by the existing safety systems - vigilance, DSD, AWS, TPWS - one or all of which will almost always intervene before a fail to call happens. If the driver has simply forgotten to stop there’s no threat to safety and it’s highly unlikely they will be allowed to set back, so the most expeditious approach will almost always be to change at the next station. Needless to say fail to calls are treated very seriously and end up on drivers’ personal records, not something that’s taken lightly.

In almost every conceivable situation using the passcom is going to lead to more delay, not less. In a dozen or more passcoms I’ve had, all have caused delay, and only one was for a genuine reason (a wheelchair passenger being forgotten about on a DOO train, who pulled it when the doors closed).

 

[Horizon22]

As I Understand it resources in Swindon are tearing their hair out at the minute and there is rumour of a complete diagram re write in December to make diagrams more productive and reliable again (ie one driver driving a full trip, not changing over multiple times on route).
We will see if this actually transpires. As much as I prefer driving Plymouth to Exeter then sitting around for several hours twiddling my thumbs, in the long run, we really should be going Paddington more often for the sake of the fare paying customers!

This would be good. Some of the short-term, weekend diagrams going around at the moment are some of the most inefficient crew diagrams I've ever seen.

 

[Bikeman78]

Thanks (again), and yes, that's the question that I was working towards.

With my traincrew hat on, and acknowledging that there might be something bigger at play, I have to say that it seems rather unwise to withdraw stops from a busy train en-route, having already specially directed passengers for those stops onto that train.

I completely agree. If the stops had to be pulled then it should have happened before the train departed from Bristol Temple Meads. Allowing people to board and then trying to kick them back off at Bath was never going to end well. The time taken for Chippenham and Swindon passengers to extricate themselves from that train would have outweighed any benefit from missing the stops.

 

[43066]

This would be good. Some of the short-term, weekend diagrams going around at the moment are some of the most inefficient crew diagrams I've ever seen.

I wish I could have access to some of those. I’ll be driving over 1,000 miles in just two shifts this week.

 

[Horizon22]

But previously you said there was no senior management on duty on weekends. That's not true in Control for any TOC I've worked for.

Indeed. Route Control work 24/7, at almost all levels (and if not there's a on-call).

 

[irish_rail]

I wish I could have access to some of those. I’ll be driving over 1,000 miles in just two shifts this week.

We do this at Plymouth when we go to London. In many ways its better than all the faffing around you do when on multiple local trips, doing not a lot of driving , just alot of sitting around costing the company money! Always find the mileage jobs seem to go quicker.

 

[Horizon22]

I wish I could have access to some of those. I’ll be driving over 1,000 miles in just two shifts this week.

As @irish_rail suggests there are some key inefficiencies, although much of this is driver shortage and/or lackng route knowledge, hence needing to split things into chunks or sending drivers 'pass' huge distances to do very little work.

I completely agree. If the stops had to be pulled then it should have happened before the train departed from Bristol Temple Meads. Allowing people to board and then trying to kick them back off at Bath was never going to end well. The time taken for Chippenham and Swindon passengers to extricate themselves from that train would have outweighed any benefit from missing the stops.

I would suggest potentially that the delay at Bath is due to a) overcrowding but also b) confusion about the calling patterns. I could completely understand a situation whereby conflicting information was being given from different GWR staff (crew / station / announcements) at Bath

 

[43066]

We do this at Plymouth when we go to London. In many ways its better than all the faffing around you do when on multiple local trips, doing not a lot of driving , just alot of sitting around costing the company money! Always find the mileage jobs seem to go quicker.

As @irish_rail suggests there are some key inefficiencies, although much of this is driver shortage and/or lackng route knowledge, hence needing to split things into chunks or sending drivers 'pass' huge distances to do very little work.



I would suggest potentially that the delay at Bath is due to a) overcrowding but also b) confusion about the calling patterns. I could completely understand a situation whereby conflicting information was being given from different GWR staff (crew / station / announcements) at Bath

In fairness agree with both. The longer days can go quicker than bitty faffing around. We tend to do relatively little passing, although appreciate this very much varies by depot.

As far as I’m concerned, when I’m at work, I’m at work, whether I’m being used productively or not!

 

[Trainmiles]

I was on this train last night and it was not a pleasant experience. The train was already full arriving in Bristol and it picked up a lot at Bristol and then Bath. All through the journey from Plymouth the guard had said we would be picking up at Bristol and Bath, but then looking at GWR journey check the stops at Chippenham and Swindon were added. After Bath there was no further information from the guard and I think this was probably the problem. I guess that the train had been advertised at Bristol and Bath in its normal stopping pattern so due to stop at Chippenham and Swindon. I thought we were going to stop at Swindon as we were routed through the platform but went straight through. Some very angry people on the train, one dad with distressed kids on board pulled the communication cord despite being told not too by others. After a lot of waiting around and other alarms driver announced that people needed to stop using the alarms as it was taking time to get through the train to reset them and the train couldn't move. Eventually two other gwr staff appeared train would be moving back to Swindon and then reading. This caused a couple of other passengers to get angry thinking that the people getting off at Swindon had 'won' and pulling the cord was illegal! Not the greatest GWR journey ever had, even worse when people were told there were two trains to reading in five minutes of arriving, it was actually 15 and the first one only had 5 coaches so that left full and standing!

 

[Bletchleyite]

In retrospect it was not a great idea, but they were right to pull the emergency if it was expected to stop and didn't as surely it could indicate concern about why the driver hadn't stopped

Indeed, an unannounced fail to call can quite validly be assumed to be an emergency, particularly if the train is DOO.

By contrast pulling them repeatedly once the train has safely stopped is just disruptive and helps nobody.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Additional stop orders were originally in place for Bath & Chippenham on 1A58 (due to the crew shortages and trains were starting at Swindon and a 2-hour gap in service), but the train was apparently by the point of Bath severely overcrowded (the fact it seeminly lost minutes 7-8 minutes there would suggest so, even accounting for the additional stop), so the crew insisted Chippenham & Swindon (Can't see Swindon being originally in the plan, so there was definitely confusion between control / crews / stations at some point; it would make sense though for connections) were then removed.

Thank you for this interesting post.

Surely the entire concept of Special Stop Orders simply cannot be used if they can subsequently be 'un-ordered' at the sole discretion of the train crew even after the calls have been advised to passengers who have then boarded the services in question?

(Obviously this excludes safety critical issues that might come to light such as a planned special call at a short platform when it was discovered that selective door opening facility had failed or something.)

 

[Ken H]

It's all very well for rail people whether working rail staff or knowledgeable enthusiasts saying how passengers should behave in this situation. Most passengers are totally ignorant of how the railway works and think setting back to the 'missed' stop is simple.
I can quite see how someone who is distressed about their disrupted journey may think the 'communication cord' is the right way to act. They would have no clue their action would make things worse. How could they?

 

[AngusH]

I do wonder actually if the "see it, say it, sorted" announcements might encourage improper use of alarms.

See it: train missed stop (or whatever, whether true or not)

say it: who? no one visible, pull alarm seems maybe the answer?

sorted: ???


(Or actually not of course)

 

[Horizon22]

Thank you for this interesting post.

Surely the entire concept of Special Stop Orders simply cannot be used if they can subsequently be 'un-ordered' at the sole discretion of the train crew even after the calls have been advised to passengers who have then boarded the services in question?

(Obviously this excludes safety critical issues that might come to light such as a planned special call at a short platform when it was discovered that selective door opening facility had failed or something.)

Ultimately the train crew manage the train. If they refuse on the point of safety (overcrowding) then the train will be sitting at Bath and won't go anywhere until some sort of mutual agreement is sorted between Control and the crew. Seeing as the crew on the the train are critical to the movement, I know who will win...

That being said I've only once before seen that conflict being protracted - if crew were to "refuse" a call order, that's the end of the matter normally, but its incredibly rare (normally on some sort of safety reason, like here).

Also maybe there was a crew-change on route so one crew agrees it but the situation then changes? I don't think that happened here, but something to consider.

 

[The exile]

To be fair a driver medical emergency is best dealt with by the existing safety systems - vigilance, DSD, AWS, TPWS - one or all of which will almost always intervene before a fail to call happens. If the driver has simply forgotten to stop there’s no threat to safety and it’s highly unlikely they will be allowed to set back, so the most expeditious approach will almost always be to change at the next station. Needless to say fail to calls are treated very seriously and end up on drivers’ personal records, not something that’s taken lightly.

In almost every conceivable situation using the passcom is going to lead to more delay, not less. In a dozen or more passcoms I’ve had, all have caused delay, and only one was for a genuine reason (a wheelchair passenger being forgotten about on a DOO train, who pulled it when the doors closed).

Yes - but your "average passenger" doesn't know that. A train that sails through a station it is booked to stop at (and where basically "everything" does stop) may well seem like an emergency situation - even to people who weren't expecting to get off. As to sheer incompetent information giving, any company that can have three methods of providing information on a station (announcements, public screens and the "staff information" ones which are in full public view) which frequently give conflicting and often quite impossible information - such as the second train arriving at a platform before the first one, or two trains using the same platform face at the same minute obviously believes providing accurate and credible information to the public is an optional extra. It is entirely irrelevant how or why it happens - someone needs to ensure it doesn't - NOW!