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Penalties after railcards expire

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WesternLancer

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As much as I agree with your point, ultimately the customer is responsible for ensuring their ticket is valid. To a TOC it is just an invalid ticket.

They could have paid the fare difference or purchased a railcard before travelling.
Agreed - but some of those people then end up with RPIs threatening them with court and criminal action pretty much the 1st time they find out about it - that is not good for customer service or good for an industry the desperately needs people to want to use it again, or swathes of it and the swathes of the services that run are at risk.

Re-instating reminder e-mails or a blanket reminder to expired cardholders just seems sensible to me.

But the industry and it's govt 'minders' seem too dysfunctional even to organise that....
 
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FGW_DID

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My take on this is, it's not hard to check your railcard validity. Either look at the physical card or open the app. It's not hard. Yes, a reminder would be nice, but do we need everyone to do everything for us?

Penalty Fares should be given as this is something that is completely in the customer's control. You wouldn't turn up at the airport without checking your passport is valid which is a condition of travel just like a valid railcard is part of the condition of travel for a railcard discounted ticket.

Why do people need to be spoon fed everything these days. Surely its not that difficult to check that the thing that is entitling you to a discount is in date. I remember when I had a railcard back in the day I was always conscious of its expiry date purely because I didn't want to cease to be valid for discounts!

Spot on, personal responsibility seems to be in short supply in this day and age and judging by some posts in this thread diminishing rapidly. Always somebody else’s fault!!

Surely, if you haven’t used something for a long period, especially approaching up to a year, it should be even more reason to check its validity! I hadn’t used my passport for about 4 years, I was supposed to be travelling abroad last year, guess what the first thing was I checked, even before I booked - was my passport still in date?

As for decriminalisation, as I think has been mentioned, why? The one common factor on probably 99% of the posts in the dispute forum is “I don’t want to go to court, I don’t want a criminal record” but people seem fine paying an out of court settlement. The prospect of a criminal record is quite a good deterrent to the majority of people.
 

Bletchleyite

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Spot on, personal responsibility seems to be in short supply in this day and age and judging by some posts in this thread diminishing rapidly

Though punishments have got much more draconian. I once got caught out years ago travelling (unintentionally) on a Railcard that was 2 weeks out of date. I was just instructed to renew it, which I did. It never saved me (or lost the railway) anything as such, because with a 16-25 you always buy the last one the day before your 26th birthday to get maximum validity so even if there's a short gap you still buy the same number.

Most likely today I'd have been prosecuted, or at best hit with a very large settlement.

I'd not see a simple PF as unreasonable, though.
 

FGW_DID

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…………Re-instating reminder e-mails or a blanket reminder to expired cardholders just seems sensible to me……………………

As you say it would be a sensible idea, where possible but at the end of the day, “No reminder“ shouldn’t be used a a “get out of jail” clause.
 

AM9

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Though punishments have got much more draconian. I once got caught out years ago travelling (unintentionally) on a Railcard that was 2 weeks out of date. I was just instructed to renew it, which I did. It never saved me (or lost the railway) anything as such, because with a 16-25 you always buy the last one the day before your 26th birthday to get maximum validity so even if there's a short gap you still buy the same number.

Most likely today I'd have been prosecuted, or at best hit with a very large settlement.

I'd not see a simple PF as unreasonable, though.
Just because rail staff used to to give defaulters the benefit of the doubt, it doesn't mean that the current punishment options weren't available to the TOCs 20 years ago, - maybe it's more that some of their staff chose to let people off, - which could have been a hangover from the nationalised railway.
Maybe the TOCs found out that this was happening and decided that the rules would be followed to protect their revenue. The problem is that for every few defaulters who were unofficially given some leeway, a significant proportion of them might see that laxity as an encouragement to deliberately try it on in the future. Not dissimilar to many other aspects of rulebreaking in recent times.
 

zwk500

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As you say it would be a sensible idea, where possible but at the end of the day, “No reminder“ shouldn’t be used a a “get out of jail” clause.
Nobody is suggesting that failure to remind people lets everybody off the hook. Putting a message up on a website doesn't change the Ts&Cs of the railcard. It's about creating a relationship with customers that encourages them to travel by train again. The railway will gain far more by being helpful to customers so that they begin travelling repeatedly than by saying 'it's your fault you should have checked, and here's a £250 fine for your trouble.'

I also think it is quite a leap to say that the railway reminding customers of their responsibility equals a total disregard of that personal responsibility.
It strikes me the one thing missing in so many things these days is common sense.
Sadly I agree, and in this there's common sense for both sides. For passengers it's common sense to check, and for the railway it's common sense to prompt. Neither takes very much time and both could save a very expensive experience that leaves a sour taste.
 

Bletchleyite

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Just because rail staff used to to give defaulters the benefit of the doubt, it doesn't mean that the current punishment options weren't available to the TOCs 20 years ago, - maybe it's more that some of their staff chose to let people off, - which could have been a hangover from the nationalised railway.
Maybe the TOCs found out that this was happening and decided that the rules would be followed to protect their revenue. The problem is that for every few defaulters who were unofficially given some leeway, a significant proportion of them might see that laxity as an encouragement to deliberately try it on in the future. Not dissimilar to many other aspects of rulebreaking in recent times.

Yes, true, but prosecuting your genuinely honest customers who have made a mistake is not a great way to run a business. Wasn't the Penalty Fare intended for people who have probably made an honest mistake?

However, why not just make it easier for the customer by offering direct debits with renewed Railcards sent automatically? No chance of forgetting to renew then. It's like the railway actually wants to issue penalties as they're more profitable.
 

londonteacher

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Yes, true, but prosecuting your genuinely honest customers who have made a mistake is not a great way to run a business. Wasn't the Penalty Fare intended for people who have probably made an honest mistake?

However, why not just make it easier for the customer by offering direct debits with renewed Railcards sent automatically? No chance of forgetting to renew then. It's like the railway actually wants to issue penalties as they're more profitable.
That would make sense and direct debits a good option. Then a renewal reminder would definitely need to be sent :)
 

FGW_DID

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Automatic renewals are great until the entitlement no longer exists.

“yeah, sorry I forgot to cancel my 16-25 railcard”
”But you’re 30!”
”nobody told me I had to, nobody reminded me!”

:lol::lol::lol:
 

Cdd89

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Perhaps another, simpler option would be to allow earlier renewal of railcards. If the 30 day window were extended to a year, which is the same as the Santander Cycle Hire scheme, it would be almost impossible to forget to renew.
 

gray1404

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Perhaps another, simpler option would be to allow earlier renewal of railcards. If the 30 day window were extended to a year, which is the same as the Santander Cycle Hire scheme, it would be almost impossible to forget to renew.
Good point, I personally think being able to renew your railcard up to 3 months in Advance would be reasonable.
 

robbeech

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Spot on, personal responsibility seems to be in short supply in this day and age and judging by some posts in this thread diminishing rapidly. Always somebody else’s fault!!

Surely, if you haven’t used something for a long period, especially approaching up to a year, it should be even more reason to check its validity! I hadn’t used my passport for about 4 years, I was supposed to be travelling abroad last year, guess what the first thing was I checked, even before I booked - was my passport still in date?

As for decriminalisation, as I think has been mentioned, why? The one common factor on probably 99% of the posts in the dispute forum is “I don’t want to go to court, I don’t want a criminal record” but people seem fine paying an out of court settlement. The prospect of a criminal record is quite a good deterrent to the majority of people.
Fine, absolutely no issues with this providing there is consistency. But that won’t happen on the railway. If you’re going to throw everyone who lets their railcard lapse by 9 days in court and let them issue a £1000 fine, do it every single person, don’t have 11 different approaches a guard or revenue inspector can take from turning a blind eye to having them lined up and shot.
Specify a penalty for doing so, and stick to it, even if it’s far harsher than it needs to be.
Good point, I personally think being able to renew your railcard up to 3 months in Advance would be reasonable.
I see no reason why this couldn’t be done.
 

thelem

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We seem to be seeing a lot of posts that go
- I made my first train journey since Covid and bought a railcard discounted ticket
- I had forgotten that my railcard had expired
- I met an RPI who took my details
- I have been offered an out of court settlement. Do I have to pay that much?

And the advice we are giving amounts to 'pay up, because the alternative is court and that'll cost you more'.

That's broadly what happened to me 10 or so years ago on GWR. Obviously it wasn't covid-related, and it was a conductor rather than and RPI so my penalty was to buy a new ticket for the full fare. I considered the penalty excessive, because it was four times my fare for a first time honest mistake. It sounds like if I'd done it today the penalty would have been much worse.

The attitude I got on here at the time was "you made a mistake, you should be prepared to accept whatever penalty was in the conditions of carriage that you agreed to when you bought the ticket".

Passengers are customers of the railways. What message does it give to your customer when you threaten them with court for a small admin mistake? It makes me think I'd be better off driving instead.

Automatic renewals are great until the entitlement no longer exists.

“yeah, sorry I forgot to cancel my 16-25 railcard”
”But you’re 30!”
”nobody told me I had to, nobody reminded me!”

:lol::lol::lol:

So you just make the automatic renewal only last for as long as the entitlement. It's pretty easy to identify when someone will reach a certain age and stop the automatic renewal. For many of the railcards there is no way of losing the entitlement (e.g. once you're over 60 years old, you're always over 60). The only railcard where it gets tricky is the Disabled Persons Railcard.
 
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WesternLancer

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Having recently booked a ticket with EMR website I've had 2 or 3 e-mails about 'preparing for my journey'. I didn't book it with a railcard but if I did (or even if not) it would not be hard for those messages to have said - 'if you have a Railcard make sure you have it with you and that it is in date' as part of the generally friendly and helpful message.

starts off:
"We’re looking forward to welcoming you on-board, and thought it might be useful to send a reminder of your journey details"
Then goes on to remind me of my train times, covid precautions and on board service levels, how to book onward cab etc etc
 

londonteacher

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The attitude I got on here at the time was "you made a mistake, you should be prepared to accept whatever penalty was in the conditions of carriage that you agreed to when you bought the ticket".
It's not attitude, it's the truth.

What message does it give to your customer when you threaten them with court for a small admin mistake?
because it was four times my fare for a first time honest mistake.

The railway does not know it's the first time it has happened. This could just be the first time you were caught.

I'm sorry but 'it's the first time' argument is getting boring and wouldn't hold up.
 

Titfield

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Fine, absolutely no issues with this providing there is consistency. But that won’t happen on the railway. If you’re going to throw everyone who lets their railcard lapse by 9 days in court and let them issue a £1000 fine, do it every single person, don’t have 11 different approaches a guard or revenue inspector can take from turning a blind eye to having them lined up and shot.

Absolutely; if you have consistency it has to be absolutely that with no discretion or differing approaches.
 

yorkie

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I have split some posts here, as they were on a different topic:

 
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