Penalty Fare Question - Successful Outcome

[323235]

Hi ,

Got a friend who travelled from Heaton Chapel - Blackpool North. They have a TfGM disabled free pass (partially sighted). Last TfGM stop for the through train they travelled on was Horwich Parkway.

When they got to Blackpool North they were penalty fared £49.99.

If the penalty fare is issued at the final destination station- is it still £20.00 or twice the single fare to the next station (Chorley) then a single ticket from Chorley.

£49.99 seems an unusual amount.

 

[Haywain]

If the penalty fare is issued at the final destination station- is it still £20.00 or twice the single fare to the next station (Chorley) then a single ticket from Chorley.

Without getting into the validity of the PF, which I have no doubt others will do, I am sure that the fare would be to the next station the train calls at at the time the PF is issued. That would then provide the opportunity to leave the train and buy a ticket for the remainder of the journey. At the destination/terminal station that opportunity is clearly unavailable. Having said that, I would love to know where £49.99 comes from!

 

[yorkie]

What facilities were available at Heaton Chapel?
What was their itinerary?

 

[Tetchytyke]

A bizarre amount, even if they were treated as having no ticket from Heaton Chapel it'd only be £43.80.

In addition to Yorkie's question, does their limited vision affect their ability to use ticket retail facilities? Northern's disabled persons policy might be relevant here.

 

[yorkie]

Indeed and what method of payment did they use and what was available

A lot of questions before we can give a truly comprehensive answer

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

£49.99 is neither twice any of the single fares from Heaton Chapel nor of any from Horwich Parkway. Accordingly, any Penalty Fare would have been incorrectly issued on that basis alone. In fact, as all rail fares are rounded to the nearest 5p it cannot be the correct value of a Penalty Fare for any journey.

However the "round" figure used suggests rather more that it might not have been a Penalty Fare at all, but rather an offer of out of Court settlement - i.e. a revival of the old Northern "penalty fakes". It would be helpful to have a photo of any paperwork your friend was issued with.

It would also be helpful to know whether or not there are any circumstances which led to your friend not purchasing a ticket at Heaton Chapel - for instance, the TVM(s) being unserviceable, them being unable to use the ticketing facilities, etc.

 

[323235]

What facilities were available at Heaton Chapel?
What was their itinerary?

Card only ticket vending machine - my friends partner bought a ticket to Blackpool North from it. I don't think she knew you could buy a ticket from another station - she rarely travels by train.

 

[scrapy]

Card only ticket vending machine - my friends partner bought a ticket to Blackpool North from it. I don't think she knew you could buy a ticket from another station - she rarely travels by train.

Is it even possible to buy from a different station from a Northern tvm? As the ops friend needed a ticket from Blackrod to Blackpool (Blackrod is actually the last TFGM station, and the train doesn't have to stop there although the fare from Horwich is probably the same) I would argue this ticket wasn't available at the origin so they boarded legitimately without a ticket intending to buy on board. Northern may argue they should of had a promise to pay notice but if their disability prevents them reading the signs or using the machine then this can't be obtained. I would certainly think an appeal would be guaranteed to succeed, if not there is something seriously wrong with the system.

 

[Haywain]

Is it even possible to buy from a different station from a Northern tvm?

Yes, it is possible - all Northern TVMs have this facility.

 

[gray1404]

The reality is, given the disability prevents the person from using the TVM, Northern have not applied their own Disabled Person Protection Policy correctly and the person issuing the PF has not acted in accordance with the PF regulations. An appeal should be lodged as their appear to be a number of grounds for such. I think that is a very unkind act to issue a PF to a disabled passenger in these circumstances. Moreover, given on board sales of tickets are limited currently.

 

[Haywain]

given the disability prevents the person from using the TVM,

Do you know the person concerned?

 

[323235]

Indeed and what method of payment did they use and what was available

A lot of questions before we can give a truly comprehensive answer

I will ask both questions and get back to you , I am also currently in the process of obtaining the paperwork.

 

[WesternLancer]

I'd like to hope they would take a sympathetically balanced view on this given the nature of the disability.
I have to say I find Northern TVMs a nightmare to use and I do not claim any impairments - and manage various other TVMs with less difficulty. Some of the time they don't even seem to recognise the touch from my fingers. I find them infuriating.

 

[robbeech]

I'd like to hope they would take a sympathetically balanced view on this given the nature of the disability.

Why would they? They've already (so it appears from the information we have been given) issued a penalty fare for a random amount of money where it is not due, they're not known for backing down in these situations. The absolute worst thing that could possibly happen to Northern in this case is they have to refund the penalty fare (or cancel it if it has yet to be paid). Nothing more will come about the unlawful issuing of penalty fares where they are not due, so they might aswell have a go and tick the boxes.

 

[jamiearmley]

Without getting into the validity of the PF, which I have no doubt others will do, I am sure that the fare would be to the next station the train calls at at the time the PF is issued. That would then provide the opportunity to leave the train and buy a ticket for the remainder of the journey. At the destination/terminal station that opportunity is clearly unavailable. Having said that, I would love to know where £49.99 comes from!

As far as i am aware, the procedure followed is £20, or twice the most expensive standard class single fare from the joining station to the next station the train called at, and then the most expensive standard single from that station to the point they are picked up for the penalty fare.
Wether this is in fact proper, i have no idea.

 

[scrapy]

Why would they? They've already (so it appears from the information we have been given) issued a penalty fare for a random amount of money where it is not due, they're not known for backing down in these situations. The absolute worst thing that could possibly happen to Northern in this case is they have to refund the penalty fare (or cancel it if it has yet to be paid). Nothing more will come about the unlawful issuing of penalty fares where they are not due, so they might aswell have a go and tick the boxes.

Whilst I'm pretty sure an appeal would be successful, from what the OP says it appears to have been issued incorrectly, (the correct amount should be twice the cheapest walk up single fare from Blackrod to Blackpool which is £30.60) I certainly don't think it has been issued unlawfully. The revenue staff should be aware if the passenger showed the TFGM pass that that they had a disability. The OP doesn't state that the passenger stated the nature of the disability. Some disabilities will prevent use of TVMs some wont. I personally don't think revenue staff should be questioning passengers about the nature of their disability (they are not qualified to make a judgement on this when it can be done at appeal stage) although my opinion is that if the passenger volunteers information the revenue officer should take it into account before issuing a penalty.

 

[robbeech]

All tickets should be purchased before starting a journey otherwise you can’t really call it a journey (some will disagree with this as they’re extremely anti toc, and the usual common sense caveat with PAYG services such as London Underground should be taken into account but obviously don’t apply here) but this should only be the case if there is opportunity to buy all of your tickets before starting your journey. If there isn’t then surely it is the same as if it were 1 ticket required and they couldn’t buy that.

 

[CyrusWuff]

As far as i am aware, the procedure followed is £20, or twice the most expensive standard class single fare from the joining station to the next station the train called at, and then the most expensive standard single from that station to the point they are picked up for the penalty fare.
Wether this is in fact proper, i have no idea.

The appropriate amount depends on whether it's issued on a train or at a station.

On a train it's £20 or twice the appropriate undiscounted fare from the boarding point to the next scheduled calling point. If the passenger wishes to travel further, they can either alight at that station and purchase an appropriate ticket to continue their journey or purchase an undiscounted ticket from the RPO and remain on the same train.

If issued at a station, it's £20 or twice the single fare from the boarding point to that station.

Assuming they were travelling off-peak, their GM pass would cover them to Blackrod in line with Condition 14 of the NRCoT (which doesn't require the train to stop at the station where you change from one ticket to another where one is a season ticket or similar), which would give a potential PF of £30.60 if there was an "opportunity to purchase" at Heaton Chapel.

Even if the PF was charged from Heaton Chapel it'd only be £40.40.

 

[robbeech]

Clearly the amount isn’t calculated from anything we can see and as such has been issued for the incorrect amount. This should be cancelled for this reason if nothing else. However this reason wouldn’t necessarily stop a penalty fare being due if the situation is not how it seems.

 

[323235]

Right I've spoken to my friend again , it turned out she got the amount slightly wrong when she first told me - it's actually £43.80 , still higher than discussed during the course of the thread.

I've obtained a screenshot of the notice.

 

[Fokx]

Right I've spoken to my friend again , it turned out she got the amount slightly wrong when she first told me - it's actually £43.80 , still higher than discussed during the course of the thread.

I've obtained a screenshot of the notice.

In which case it’s a penalty fare for the full journey of Heaton Chapel to Blackpool stations (£21.90 anytime single).

 

[Tetchytyke]

it's actually £43.80 , still higher than discussed during the course of the thread.

That's twice the fare from Heaton Chapel. I'm not sure if that is correct, but the PF regs say it should be charged from where the passenger boarded the train (and is silent on what happens when over riding on a ticket) so it might be. Was it a through train? If it wasn't then the PF is definitely wrong.

Does your friend's disability affect her ability to use a TVM? This is very relevant because Northern's "Disabled People's Protection Policy" exempts people from buying a ticket before boarding if the facilities are not accessible to them.

Accessible travel policy

Northern | Buy Cheap Train Tickets and Check Train Times

www.northernrailway.co.uk

All tickets should be purchased before starting a journey otherwise you can’t really call it a journey (some will disagree with this as they’re extremely anti toc

It really isn't that simple.

 

[clagmonster]

As far as I can see, twice the fare from Heaton Chapel is correct. The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 state:
"9.—(1) Where a penalty fare is charged under regulation 5(1) to a person travelling by, present on, or leaving a train, the amount of that penalty fare is £20 or twice the full single fare applicable, whichever is greater.

(2) In paragraph (1), “the full single fare applicable” is the full single fare for the journey in question from the boarding station to—

(a)the next station at which the train is due to make a scheduled call; or

(b)the station at which the person leaves the train if, at the time the penalty fare is charged—

(i)the person is leaving the train; or

(ii)the train is stationary at a station and there is sufficient opportunity for the person charged to leave the train at that station."

The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018

These Regulations make provision for the charging of penalty fares for the failure to produce, when required to do so, a ticket or other authority authorising a person to travel by train or to be present in a compulsory ticket area at a station.

www.legislation.gov.uk

There is no exemption for a passenger overriding on a ticket, which to me seems a little unfair because the pasengers is being required to double pay for a section of their journey, but unfortunately they are the rules. Getting this changed would be a separate matter entirely. I would suggest a letter to your MP might be a start in this.

It should also be noted that the passenger was traveling with their partner who did obtain a ticket from the machine, so could have assisted the passenger in obtaining a ticket.

I think the one thing in the passengers favour is that the TVM at Heaton Chapel will only sell a ticket from a remote station in conjunction with an itinerary. As the required ticket was from Blackrod, a station at which the train did not stop, an itinerary could not be produced for the specific journey required, which I can see could cause confusion. That said, it would be possible to obtain the required valid ticket with a different itinerary.

Other than that, unless there is any signage issue at Heaton Chapel or other similar technicality, I believe the penalty fare to have been issued correctly although I do sympathise with the passenger in such a case.

 

[some bloke]

If you post her account of why she didn't buy a ticket, people on here can help with an appeal if it seems suitable.


Just in case - does the rest of the notice make clear that she has 21 days to either pay *or appeal*?

Regulation 5(2)(h) requires it to say that.

The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018

These Regulations make provision for the charging of penalty fares for the failure to produce, when required to do so, a ticket or other authority authorising a person to travel by train or to be present in a compulsory ticket area at a station.

www.legislation.gov.uk

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

From the portion of the Penalty Fare that you have uploaded, it appears the date of issue would have been 31 August, correct? If so, this was the August Bank Holiday and accordingly, regardless of the time of travel, an Off-Peak Day Single would have been the appropriate undiscounted single fare to double for the calculation of the Penalty Fare's amount.

It would also be the appropriate undiscounted single fare if the train from Heaton Chapel was scheduled to depart at or after 9am.

The Penalty Fare has been issued for twice the Anytime Day Single, 2 × £21.90 = £43.80, rather than twice the Off-Peak Day Single, 2 × £20.20 = £40.40. Accordingly if either of the above two points are correct then the Penalty Fare has been issued for an incorrect amount. This would be a valid ground of appeal.

There is also the possibility of an appeal on the basis that:

there are compelling reasons why, in the particular circumstances of the case, the appellant should not be liable to pay the penalty fare

as well as on the grounds stemming from any inaccessibility of the ticketing facilities at Heaton Chapel in relation to your friend's disability.

No matter what, there is no downside to making an appeal - it only takes a few minutes to do and brings powerful legal protections against prosecution, and may well see the Penalty Fare being cancelled/overturned.

 

[some bloke]

From the portion of the Penalty Fare that you have uploaded...

Yes, if she travelled off-peak they have attempted to overcharge her, which should mean the company will lose an appeal.

 

[yorkie]

Card only ticket vending machine...

Was she intending to pay by cash?

Did her disability prevent her using use the machine?

If the answer to either, or both, is yes, a PF cannot be charged.

 

[robbeech]

It really isn't that simple.

It’s not simple but it should be the case, any argument wouldn’t be in the documentation like the argument for it is.

If the answer to either, or both, is yes, a PF cannot be charged.

A PF SHOULD NOT be charged. But of course, they DO, all the time because they get away with doing so.

 

[HSP 2]

Hi ,

Got a friend who travelled from Heaton Chapel - Blackpool North. They have a TfGM disabled free pass (partially sighted). Last TfGM stop for the through train they travelled on was Horwich Parkway.

When they got to Blackpool North they were penalty fared £49.99.

If the penalty fare is issued at the final destination station- is it still £20.00 or twice the single fare to the next station (Chorley) then a single ticket from Chorley.

£49.99 seems an unusual amount.

Is your friend used to traveling on the trains and trams in Manchester?

Card only ticket vending machine - my friends partner bought a ticket to Blackpool North from it. I don't think she knew you could buy a ticket from another station - she rarely travels by train.

Your friend had their partner with them who bought there own ticket, thinking that the TfGM travel card would cover the fare to Blackpool?

I will ask both questions and get back to you , I am also currently in the process of obtaining the paperwork.

Right I've spoken to my friend again , it turned out she got the amount slightly wrong when she first told me - it's actually £43.80 , still higher than discussed during the course of the thread.

I've obtained a screenshot of the notice.

I think that your friend should appeal the PF, maybe mentioning some of the above.

But a lot of people have more knowledge about these things.

Hope it works out well.

 

[323235]

Thank you for all the assistance. I've relayed all of the information to my friend who was in the process of writing an appeal.

She's a very rare train traveller (this is only the second time I've known her travel by train in recent years - the last time she asked me for advice, as she hadn't travelled for years), so she had no idea about promise to pay , buying tickets from different stations / beyond her pass validity from the ticket machine.

She is going to appeal the penalty fare based on the points discussed. I'll post back with any further updates or assistance.