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Penalty Fare - Southeastern

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Dave W

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Hello,

Long time forum user, but I'm querying this on behalf of a friend. I think I know the consensus the forum will reach but hoping for some confirmation.

She travels from Rochester to Victoria some mornings; her shift pattern is erratic and so she doesn't buy a season ticket, rather choosing to load weekly tickets to her smartcard when she needs them. She intended to do this this morning, arriving in good time to find a long queue and only one ticket window on. Instead, she tried to use a ticket machine to add the ticket to her smartcard, and believed from the behaviour of the machine that the transaction had been completed (it since transpires she's not had an email receipt and no shadow for the amount has been placed on her bank account)

Upon trying to use the gates, the card didn't work (for good reason, if the transaction hadn't completed). However, the lady on the gateline saw that she'd been using the machine and, with the train pulling in, waved her through.

Inevitably, explaining this timeline at Victoria did not wash and she was issued with a penalty fare. A comedy of errors, I'm sure you'll agree. I suspect what I'll get back from the great and good here is to put it down to experience, pay the fare and move on, which she's willing to do.

However, is there something she could do regarding the wider experience she's had this morning? Namely:
  • She arrives at a regular time each morning and usually has plenty of time to buy a ticket if necessary, does this establish a precedent that she DID arrive in "good time"?
  • Does her experience with the machine (which I didn't witness so can't speak for) leading her to believe the transaction was completed mean anything?
  • The gateline staff member was clearly doing her a favour waving her through but does that establish an authority to travel?
I suspect the answer to all of these is a firm "no", and even if they weren't I doubt it'd change the outcome of a penalty fare but would a letter in to customer services outlining all this be useful?
 
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Kilopylae

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She arrives at a regular time each morning and usually has plenty of time to buy a ticket if necessary, does this establish a precedent that she DID arrive in "good time"?
No. Unfortunately, Southeastern's passenger charter is clear that they consider it a 'you problem' if you cannot purchase a ticket due to queues at a ticket office. "Please allow sufficient time to buy your ticket." (...) "It is your responsibility to purchase a ticket before you travel for the whole of your journey for the time you want to travel and on the route and trains you want to use". Some other TOCs specify maximum appropriate queueing times of three minutes off-peak and five minutes in the peaks; Southeastern do not.
Does her experience with the machine (which I didn't witness so can't speak for) leading her to believe the transaction was completed mean anything?
In my view, that depends on whether the machine gave her positive confirmation (which I would contend would count as an authority to travel, analogous to being advised by a member of staff or National Rail Enquiries that your ticket is valid in that whether the staff member/NRE/ticket machine is correct or not doesn't matter), or whether she just didn't understand how the machine worked, in which case we're back to a 'you problem'.
The gateline staff member was clearly doing her a favour waving her through but does that establish an authority to travel
No.
 

Hadders

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I would pay up to prevent the matter from escalating and then put in a complaint to Southeastern Customer Services.
 

island

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I think it’s a case of pay up to stop the matter from escalating further and optionally put in a complaint to see if it might be refunded (in part or in full) as a gesture of goodwill.

For the future, if your friend has a relatively recent smartphone, the Southeastern app can be used to purchase and add tickets to smartcards. It takes a few minutes after purchase for the ticket to be ready to upload to the card but it could be done over breakfast (for example).

In my view, that depends on whether the machine gave her positive confirmation (which I would contend would count as an authority to travel, analogous to being advised by a member of staff or National Rail Enquiries that your ticket is valid in that whether the staff member/NRE/ticket machine is correct or not doesn't matter), or whether she just didn't understand how the machine worked, in which case we're back to a 'you problem'.
More saliently, it depends on whether she can prove that the machine gave her said positive confirmation, which inevitably she can’t.
 

Dave W

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Thanks for advice and tips folks - very much the line I took but thought I'd tap into the forums' expansive hive mind!
 

Haywain

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Some other TOCs specify maximum appropriate queueing times of three minutes off-peak and five minutes in the peaks
I'm aware that many TOCs have targets of that nature and use the word average in relation to those times but I'm not aware of any that actually specify a maximum queuing time.
 
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In the future, I'd ask them to explore the option of being able to buy a smart ticket online, which can then be collected at the origin station, or can be loaded directly to the smart card if your phone is compatible. This way, you can eliminate the risks of the machines being out of service, or the ticket office queue being too long.
 
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