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Penalty fare when using Oyster PAYG via Farringdon

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Fenchurch SP

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I was travelling between Dagenham Dock and West Croydon, changing at Barking to the Hammersmith & City line and then changing to Thameslink at Farringdon, and changing again at Norwood Junction. There was a ticket check between London Bridge and Norwood Junction and I was issued with a Penalty Fare, with the inspector saying I should have touched in and out at Farringdon.
It is my understanding that the lower fare of £2.80 (peak) is valid via Farringdon so I appealed, but it was rejected, because "the Oyster card had not been validated at Farringdon prior to continuing your journey"
I touched out at the end of the journey and was charged the £2.80 fare.
Was I in the wrong? I intend to re-appeal if not.
 
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JonathanH

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This is very interesting. The revenue person is effectively saying that you are 'off-route' which isn't a concept under Oyster so long as you satisfy the maximum journey time restriction.

There is nothing in the terms and conditions for Oyster that says you can be off-route so long as you are within the area of coverage.

£2.80 is the fare from Barking to West Croydon if you avoid any touch on the way. Nothing precludes any potential route that avoids barriers even if going via Zone 1.

The point to query is exactly what Oyster rule has been broken in this instance. There is no sign at Farringdon which states that passengers interchanging there must touch in and out and there isn't a gateline within the station.
 
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miklcct

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I was travelling between Dagenham Dock and West Croydon, changing at Barking to the Hammersmith & City line and then changing to Thameslink at Farringdon, and changing again at Norwood Junction. There was a ticket check between London Bridge and Norwood Junction and I was issued with a Penalty Fare, with the inspector saying I should have touched in and out at Farringdon.
It is my understanding that the lower fare of £2.80 (peak) is valid via Farringdon so I appealed, but it was rejected, because "the Oyster card had not been validated at Farringdon prior to continuing your journey"
I touched out at the end of the journey and was charged the £2.80 fare.
Was I in the wrong? I intend to re-appeal if not.
You should definitely appeal. It is now possible to change at Farringdon without passing the barriers between National Rail and London Underground, and you used your Oyster correctly.

There is no route limitation using PAYG as long as you have touched in and stay within the maximum journey time.
 

Watershed

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I was travelling between Dagenham Dock and West Croydon, changing at Barking to the Hammersmith & City line and then changing to Thameslink at Farringdon, and changing again at Norwood Junction. There was a ticket check between London Bridge and Norwood Junction and I was issued with a Penalty Fare, with the inspector saying I should have touched in and out at Farringdon.
It is my understanding that the lower fare of £2.80 (peak) is valid via Farringdon so I appealed, but it was rejected, because "the Oyster card had not been validated at Farringdon prior to continuing your journey"
I touched out at the end of the journey and was charged the £2.80 fare.
Was I in the wrong? I intend to re-appeal if not.
Provided you:
  • Touched in your Oyster card when starting your journey
  • Had sufficient credit to make the journey (or had Auto Topup set)
  • Stayed within the Oyster area of validity
  • Did not exceed the maximum journey time (MJT)
You are completely in the right. There is no concept of a valid route on Oyster. As long as you're complying with the above conditions you can take any route and any services you like.

And when transferring between LU and NR services, you only need to touch out/in as required to get through barriers (e.g. as at Limehouse). There is certainly no need to exit and re-enter the station when transferring at Farringdon.

This is a classic case of the member of staff making it up and the appeals service then being a chocolate teapot. Unfortunately it's not the first case we've heard of, and I fear it won't be the last.

Absolutely appeal again - asking them:
  • Where, precisely, the Oyster conditions of use or the National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT) say you must validate your Oyster card mid-journey?
  • How a touched-in Oyster card, with enough credit and with less than the MJT elapsed, can suddenly become 'unvalidated' without you touching out?
Even if this second appeal isn't accepted, that's far from the end of the line on the matter. There is a final, third stage of appeal - each stage is supposed to be considered by a different, independent person.

It's also worth noting that, as you've brought a first stage appeal (presumably in time, otherwise it likely wouldn't have been considered) and your appeal has been decided - this means that Thameslink (GTR) are now legally barred from prosecuting you over the incident.

So even if your second and third stage appeals were to be (wrongly) denied, their only remaining recourse would be to take civil action against you (i.e. sue you in County Court), which is unheard of.

Once the Penalty Fare is resolved, it may also be worthwhile considering any further action you wish to take against GTR and/or the inspector. Certainly as a first step I would - at the appropriate juncture - raise a complaint to them, and take it from there. But we can help you with that once the Penalty Fare is resolved.
 

AlterEgo

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Provided you:
  • Touched in your Oyster card when starting your journey
  • Had sufficient credit to make the journey (or had Auto Topup set)
  • Stayed within the Oyster area of validity
  • Did not exceed the maximum journey time (MJT)
You are completely in the right. There is no concept of a valid route on Oyster. As long as you're complying with the above conditions you can take any route and any services you like.

And when transferring between LU and NR services, you only need to touch out/in as required to get through barriers (e.g. as at Limehouse). There is certainly no need to exit and re-enter the station when transferring at Farringdon.

This is a classic case of the member of staff making it up and the appeals service then being a chocolate teapot.

Absolutely appeal again - asking them:
  • Where, precisely, the Oyster conditions of use or the National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT) say you must validate your Oyster card mid-journey?
  • How a touched-in Oyster card, with enough credit and with less than the MJT elapsed, can suddenly become 'unvalidated' without you touching out?
Even if this second appeal isn't accepted, that's far from the end of the line on the matter. There is a final, third stage of appeal - each stage is supposed to be considered by a different, independent person.

It's also worth noting that, as you've brought a first stage appeal (presumably in time, otherwise it likely wouldn't have been considered) and your appeal has been decided - this means that Thameslink (GTR) are now legally barred from prosecuting you over the incident.

So even if your second and third stage appeals were to be (wrongly) denied, their only remaining recourse would be to take civil action against you (i.e. sue you in County Court), which is unheard of.

Once the Penalty Fare is resolved, it may also be worthwhile considering any further action you wish to take against GTR and/or the inspector. Certainly as a first step I would - at the appropriate juncture - raise a complaint to them, and take it from there. But we can help you with that once the Penalty Fare is resolved.
I agree with this analysis entirely. There is certainly no concept of being off-route on Oyster/contactless and the only real proviso is you don't foul the Maximum Journey Time, which you had not at that stage.

OP, please let us know how you get on.
 

yorkie

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I was travelling between Dagenham Dock and West Croydon, changing at Barking to the Hammersmith & City line and then changing to Thameslink at Farringdon, and changing again at Norwood Junction. There was a ticket check between London Bridge and Norwood Junction and I was issued with a Penalty Fare, with the inspector saying I should have touched in and out at Farringdon.
It is my understanding that the lower fare of £2.80 (peak) is valid via Farringdon so I appealed, but it was rejected, because "the Oyster card had not been validated at Farringdon prior to continuing your journey"
I touched out at the end of the journey and was charged the £2.80 fare.
Was I in the wrong? I intend to re-appeal if not.
You are in the right and the inspector is wrong

It is GTR who you are in dispute with, is that correct? GTR do have form for this sort of thing.

Let us know how you get on; if GTR continue to reject your appeal then I would contact the Rail Ombudsman and also get in touch with @MikeWh
 

Fenchurch SP

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Yes it was GTR (and Penalty Services Ltd for the appeal).
The inspector did seem confused because the journey on the PFN is Farringdon to East Croydon, even though he knew I had touched in at Dagenham Dock, and didn't ask my name but put it on the PFN as Mr Fully.
 

yorkie

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Sadly the rail industry (and especially rogue train companies like GTR) have insufficient safeguards in place to ensure that staff they recruit are suitable for the job, insufficient safeguards to ensure adequate training is provided, insufficient safeguards to ensure correct procedures take place and insufficient safeguards to ensure the companies who handle their appeals are acting appropriately.

Fortunately on this forum you are in good hands and among knowledgeable people who can assist you.
 

Nottingham59

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There is no sign at Farringdon which states that passengers interchanging there must touch in and out and there isn't a gateline within the station.
Indeed, if I understand the route taken, the interchange at Farringdon was a simple cross-platform move onto Thameslink.
I touched out at the end of the journey and was charged the £2.80 fare.
It would be worth capturing a record of that journey history to prove that you had indeed paid the fare at the time.
 

swt_passenger

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It’s a sad indictment of the TOC, but not at all surprising to many of use, that even the first stage appeal “authority” doesn’t understand how Oyster PAYG works either.

It’s only been in full use on NR for coming up twelve years after all…
 

Watershed

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Yes it was GTR (and Penalty Services Ltd for the appeal).
The inspector did seem confused because the journey on the PFN is Farringdon to East Croydon, even though he knew I had touched in at Dagenham Dock, and didn't ask my name but put it on the PFN as Mr Fully.
Well that's another ground for appeal then. The Penalty Fare has been incorrectly issued - it must be issued from your origin station to the next stop that the train is stopping at.

It would be a good idea to include your Oyster card history - either as a statement if you get them emailed to you, or else as a screenshot of the app/website, or else as a picture of what comes up on an Underground ticket machine under Journey History.
 

JonathanH

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The thing I dont understand here is the significance of Dagenham Dock in the eyes of the person checking the Oyster reader. How far round the compass would have been acceptable? Romford, Chingford, Enfield Town?

The person checking wouldn't have known that Dagenham Dock to West Croydon doesn't need a pink reader touch to be charged at an 'avoiding zone 1' fare.

Maybe the revenue person felt that the last touch had to be at a Thameslink station.

Either way, they are just making up rules.
 

Nottingham59

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doesn’t understand how Oyster PAYG works either
True, but look at it from their point of view. The PFN documentation states the OP made a journey starting a Farringdon. In any future appeal, it will be important to (re)state "I was making a single journey from Dagenham Dock to Croydon, changing trains at Farringdon but not leaving nor re-entering the station there".
 
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Watershed

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The thing I dont understand here is the significance of Dagenham Dock in the eyes of the person checking the Oyster reader. How far round the compass would have been acceptable? Romford, Chingford, Enfield Town?

The person checking wouldn't have known that Dagenham Dock to West Croydon doesn't need a pink reader touch to be charged at an 'avoiding zone 1' fare.
I don't think that's even what they were concerned about, I would imagine it's that they knew OP had come off the Underground at Farringdon, but couldn't see a touch in there. Which is different to almost all other interchanges from the Underground, where you'd have to pass through a barrier, which would show up on the card.

Still, an inspector's response to not being 100% sure whether a ticket is valid should either be "hang on, I'll just check in my guide/with a colleague" or just accepting the ticket. "If in doubt, issue a Penalty Fare" is absolutely the wrong way to go about things.
 

bakerstreet

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There was a ticket check between London Bridge and Norwood Junction and I was issued with a Penalty Fare, with the inspector saying I should have touched in and out at Farringdon.
Which, of course, had you done so, would have meant you paid for two separate journeys.

One journey Dagenham Dock to Farringdon (4.80 peak/ 3.20 off peak)

Farringdon to West Croydon (550/370)

Total 1030 / 690

Instead of the through fare where you pay for each zone only once.
 

swt_passenger

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True, but look at it from their point of view. The PFN documentation states the OP made a journey starting a Farringdon. In any future appeal, it will be important to (re)state "I was making a single journey from Dagenham Dock to Croydon, changing trains at Farringdon but not leaving or re-entering the station there".
Agreed, but with the caveat that as an interchange without separate gatelines Farringdon isn’t exactly unique, there are quite a few shared NR/LU stations when you look for them…
 
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30907

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FWIW, the TfL journey finder quotes £2.80 for via Farringdon, using LUL thus far. It doesn't offer that fare for various other routes (eg involving C2C from W Ham) but that isn't relevant.

Assuming there's no pink reader at Farringdon (or, if there is, a specific advicevto use it) you are clearly in the right.
 

miklcct

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You can either change at Farringdon without passing the gateline, or exit and enter the other gateline through the concourse within 10 minutes.
 

Watershed

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FWIW, the TfL journey finder quotes £2.80 for via Farringdon, using LUL thus far. It doesn't offer that fare for various other routes (eg involving C2C from W Ham) but that isn't relevant.
It's the default fare so that's what will be charged unless the conditions for another fare are met. The only other route in this case is changing between LU and NR at London Bridge, Victoria, Blackfriars, Cannon Street, Charing Cross or Waterloo (East).

So, as there isn't a gateline between Farringdon LU and NR (it's literally cross-platform between north/westbound LU and southbound NR), the default fare will always be charged when going via Farringdon.

Assuming there's no pink reader at Farringdon (or, if there is, a specific advicevto use it) you are clearly in the right.
There are no pink readers in Zone 1, as normally they are only used to prove you have avoided Zone 1.
 

Starmill

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What a bizarre reason to issue a Penalty Fare.

It's almost as if they just hand them out for any old made up reason, hoping people will pay up rather than go through all the hassle of appealing.
 

Nottingham59

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Is Farrindon the only station on the Thameslink network where there is no barrier between NR and the Underground?
 

hermit

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There is a reader on the platform at Farringdon, though not I think a pink one. I used it recently when changing from Thameslink to the H&C to go to Barbican - didn’t know whether I needed to, but did so anyway. It was recorded as a touch out but didn’t affect the overall fare.
 

swt_passenger

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There is a reader on the platform at Farringdon, though not I think a pink one. I used it recently when changing from Thameslink to the H&C to go to Barbican - didn’t know whether I needed to, but did so anyway. It was recorded as a touch out but didn’t affect the overall fare.
That’s because it‘s a special touch called a continuation exit. I’m sure there have been reports of RPIs not understanding them properly as well…
 

MikeWh

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I was travelling between Dagenham Dock and West Croydon, changing at Barking to the Hammersmith & City line and then changing to Thameslink at Farringdon, and changing again at Norwood Junction. There was a ticket check between London Bridge and Norwood Junction and I was issued with a Penalty Fare, with the inspector saying I should have touched in and out at Farringdon.
It is my understanding that the lower fare of £2.80 (peak) is valid via Farringdon so I appealed, but it was rejected, because "the Oyster card had not been validated at Farringdon prior to continuing your journey"
I touched out at the end of the journey and was charged the £2.80 fare.
Was I in the wrong? I intend to re-appeal if not.
You are completely right. I've contacted the person at TfL who has in the past managed to get GTR to drop erroneous proceedings when I have raised the issue. As @yorkie says, GTR have form for this. It might speed things along if you could DM me with your name and dates/times.

As others have said, providing you touched in at the start and out at the end you did nothing wrong. If you haven't yet paid the penalty fare then I would suggest not doing so because this is going to get thrown out.

Answering other points raised in the thread:
  • £2.80 is the default fare and is valid for any route not described by an alternative fare. Via Farringdon is not described so the default applies.
  • There are no pink readers in zone 1.
  • If you touched out on the validators in Farringdon you would not be able to touch back in again until 15 minutes later because of the continuation exit setting. Had you touched there (once, or twice within 15 minutes) it wouldn't have made any difference to the charge, but it could have confused the RPI even further.
  • You certainly aren't required to go to the gateline at Farringdon just to start a new journey. If you did and used the same gateline then it would charge you more.
  • The lack of barriers between NR and LU makes absolutely no difference.
  • It doesn't matter how far round the compass you have travelled. If the journey you are making stays within the PAYG area and you stay within the maximum journey time then you are valid.
@Fenchurch SP: Please do contact me.
 

miklcct

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There is a reader on the platform at Farringdon, though not I think a pink one. I used it recently when changing from Thameslink to the H&C to go to Barbican - didn’t know whether I needed to, but did so anyway. It was recorded as a touch out but didn’t affect the overall fare.

That’s because it‘s a special touch called a continuation exit. I’m sure there have been reports of RPIs not understanding them properly as well…

The standalone reader is located between the NR/LU platforms as shown in the attachments. The purpose is to let NR passengers who arrive using a paper ticket to touch in to start the LU journey, or LU passengers touching out to switch to a paper ticket for the NR services. It's definitely not a pink one so if you are just changing trains, be careful NOT to touch it otherwise it will become a tap out!
 

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MikeWh

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The standalone reader is located between the NR/LU platforms as shown in the attachments. The purpose is to let NR passengers who arrive using a paper ticket to touch in to start the LU journey, or LU passengers touching out to switch to a paper ticket for the NR services. It's definitely not a pink one
Agreed up to this point.
so if you are just changing trains, be careful NOT to touch it otherwise it will become a tap out!
Did you read my post above yours? It's a special kind of touch out which won't affect what you are charged. It might confuse an RPI, but we can assist if that happens.
 

miklcct

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Did you read my post above yours? It's a special kind of touch out which won't affect what you are charged. It might confuse an RPI, but we can assist if that happens.
Even if you travel to another station?! My understanding is that if you touch out there and exit the gateline the touch out will simply be repeated, as it's not always obvious if a station is gated or not.

But tapping your touched-in Oyster at Farringdon platform reader and continue travelling must be a sure fare evasion because after tapping it the Oyster will become out of the system, right? If that's not true then people can fare evade the Thameslink easily onto any ungated station by NOT touching out at the final destination!!!
 

su31

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Agreed up to this point.

Did you read my post above yours? It's a special kind of touch out which won't affect what you are charged. It might confuse an RPI, but we can assist if that happens.

We have those standalone readers at Kentish Town and they are a pain. They have signs on them telling customers to only touch if transferring to or from LU to NR and have a paper ticket up to that point.
The number of people coming to the gate line asking to be let out because they have already touched out on the validators is very high daily. The difference here, is that the readers do act as entry / exit when the Tube station is closed, as they are adjacent to the out of hours entrance.
 
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