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Penalty fare when using Oyster PAYG via Farringdon

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akm

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Can you get the 'expanded' view of the statement, that shows all the touches? Can't remember where it is in the web interface.
 
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Haywain

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Do we agree that the penalty fare was issued on the basis that the OP did not do anything at Farringdon ?
No. The PF was issued due to a member of GTR staff not understanding Oyster card use.
 

jumble

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No. The PF was issued due to a member of GTR staff not understanding Oyster card use.
I think we are talking about the same thing if you agree that failing to touch in/out at Farringdon can be interpreted as the same as doing nothing at Farringdon

from the OP
I was issued with a Penalty Fare, with the inspector saying I should have touched in and out at Farringdon.
 

AnyFile

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Which, of course, had you done so, would have meant you paid for two separate journeys.

One journey Dagenham Dock to Farringdon (4.80 peak/ 3.20 off peak)

Farringdon to West Croydon (550/370)

Total 1030 / 690

Instead of the through fare where you pay for each zone only once.
Is there an OSI at Farringdon?

I think you're missing my point. A pink reader touch is never required. They are purely to indicate that someone took a route avoiding zone 1 for a journey between a station pair that has more than one fare set. If a pair only has one fare set, that's of no concern to the passenger, and if there was more than one fare it is perfectly acceptable for the passenger to not use a pink reader, or simply not realise there are multiple fares and be charged the highest. That isn't the case here, anyway.
This, I think, it is an important point. You are (or should) never be required to touch midway. As far as you have touch in at the beginning of the journey and touch out at the end, you should have done all you are required to. If this were not enough than it would be the system that is broken.

The pink reader, I always read it written this way, were installed to let you show that you travelled avoiding zone 1, but there was never a requirement to touch them.

If you are doing a journey with a change where there is ink reader and you omit to do that, as far as I know, you just get the more expensive fare via zone 1, not a penalty.
 

etr221

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Is there an OSI at Farringdon?
From the spreadsheet here (on TfL website), yes (at least AIUI), which replicates the In-Station-Interchange - there is no need to use it.
For the OP's change - Westbound LU to Southbound TL - there is cross platform interchange, with no need to use the OSI.
This, I think, it is an important point. You are (or should) never be required to touch midway. As far as you have touch in at the beginning of the journey and touch out at the end, you should have done all you are required to. If this were not enough than it would be the system that is broken.

The pink reader, I always read it written this way, were installed to let you show that you travelled avoiding zone 1, but there was never a requirement to touch them.

If you are doing a journey with a change where there is ink reader and you omit to do that, as far as I know, you just get the more expensive fare via zone 1, not a penalty.
Agree, the pink readers are there to idntify the route you have taken, and thus indicate that a lower fare fare may be appropriate on completing journey and touching out.

At some National Rail London Termini, the same station OSI functions to indicate your route, and that a (higher) fare is appropriate: for Dagenham Dock to West Croydon the TfL Fare Finder has a note
Via Zone 1 changing between London Underground and National Rail at London Bridge or Victoria (or Blackfriars, Cannon Street, Charing Cross, Waterloo or Waterloo East)
against a higher alternative fare. NB the stations mentioned do not include Farringdon!
 

jumble

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Is there an OSI at Farringdon?


This, I think, it is an important point. You are (or should) never be required to touch midway. As far as you have touch in at the beginning of the journey and touch out at the end, you should have done all you are required to. If this were not enough than it would be the system that is broken.

The pink reader, I always read it written this way, were installed to let you show that you travelled avoiding zone 1, but there was never a requirement to touch them.

If you are doing a journey with a change where there is ink reader and you omit to do that, as far as I know, you just get the more expensive fare via zone 1, not a penalty.
There is no OSI at Farringdon as you can change between Thameslink and Underground without going out of station which ever platforms you want to go to and from since there is a bridge in the middle of the station
This is no different to Barking and Harrow and Wealdstone, Harrow on the Hill and many other stations
 

AnyFile

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As Farringdon is in the list of the OSI, does it mean that even if you touch out and in again the fare would be as one single journey?

(sorry for moving a little bit off topic).

By the way in the TFL spreadsheet linked above, Farringdon has the following notes:

Same NLC OSI
Interchange time 10 min
Interchange between: Integrated Ticket Hall and other entrances
 

Hadders

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There is no need to use the OSI at Farringdon because as others have explained there is no need to leave the station or even pass through a gate line when you change trains.

An OSI exists because you could leave via the new ticket line, cross the road to the old Underground entrance and continue your journey. If you did do this the OSI would apply. To stress again, there is absolutely no requirement to do this.
 

MikeWh

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Just to update on this. My message to my usual contact at TfL did not seem to yield the usual result, but that may be because of holiday delays. The fact that the penalty fare is being handled by a third party company might also be an issue. This morning I received confirmation from GTRs PR team that my second intervention had been passed to a suitable manager. I'm hoping that this will soon be resolved.
 

furlong

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As the PF was already paid and two formal appeals have occurred, I'd say it is still necessary for the 3rd appeal to be submitted now - even if TfL intervenes and persuades the company not to oppose it - so that the legal entitlement to a speedy and complete refund kicks in if the appeal is upheld and any records get set straight. (Don't accept something informal that could lead to you still having a PF showing against your name or them changing their minds after the 3rd appeal deadline has passed.)
 

MikeWh

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As the PF was already paid and two formal appeals have occurred, I'd say it is still necessary for the 3rd appeal to be submitted now - even if TfL intervenes and persuades the company not to oppose it - so that the legal entitlement to a speedy and complete refund kicks in if the appeal is upheld and any records get set straight. (Don't accept something informal that could lead to you still having a PF showing against your name or them changing their minds after the 3rd appeal deadline has passed.)
Agreed, and the OP indicated privately to me that they would submit the 3rd appeal yesterday.
 

bakerstreet

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As the PF was already paid and two formal appeals have occurred, I'd say it is still necessary for the 3rd appeal to be submitted now - even if TfL intervenes and persuades the company not to oppose it - so that the legal entitlement to a speedy and complete refund kicks in if the appeal is upheld and any records get set straight. (Don't accept something informal that could lead to you still having a PF showing against your name or them changing their minds after the 3rd appeal deadline has passed.)
And if two formal appeals have occurred and denied, when this is the basic Oyster regulation touch in touch out - then there really should be an investigation into the effectiveness, fairness and protection that the appeals system is offering passengers.

When one rouge RPI gets things wrong, ok this can happen.

but When two more staff in a back office with time to think and research fail to act correctly this is astounding.

A court would hardly disagree with such official outcomes and (had it not been for this forum intervention and a third appeal) the passenger would likely be found guilty of wrongdoing had this got to court.

This is a very dangerous situation for all passengers.
 
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Hadders

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I do hope this can be satisfactorily resolved. GTR have previous form for this type of behaviour and I wonder how many passengers have been incorrectly PFd and simply paid up.

If there is any evidence that this widespread GTR should lose the ability to issue PFs until relevent staff and management have been retrained.
 
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