Permission to buy on board train

[richardtheblue]

Hi,

My wife had a problem today on a London Midland train from Longbridge to Five Ways. She arrived at the station just as the train was arriving so didn't have time to buy a ticket at the station, so went to the train guard and asked permission to buy a ticket on board, and he said that was ok.

However, once the train left, he said that she was not permitted to use a (16-25) railcard because 'this isn't allowed on board the train'. So she had to pay the full fare. This seems entirely unreasonable since he said she could buy a ticket on board, and had she known this she might well have waited for the next train.

It's not a huge amount of money, but this is not the first time this has happened either, so we would like to complain to London Midland if in the right - could someone advise? And are there any available documents which would support our complaint?

Thanks a lot for any help,
Richard.

 

[Anon Mouse]

Why complain? She asked if she could buy a ticket onboard and she was sold a ticket onboard.

 

[WillPS]

I don't think there's anything written on the matter.

As a general rule, if you board without purchasing a ticket where there was a valid opportunity to do so, the only ticket options available on board are Anytime Singles and Returns (unless a Penalty Fare scheme is in operation, in which case it's the greater of £20 or double the Anytime Single fare).

There are some exceptions - for example if you wish to pay by Cash and the Ticket Machine only accepts Cards, you can pay by Cash on board with the full ticket selection available. Another example is when you wish to purchase a ticket which the machine is not equipped to sell (or a railcard discount which is not loaded in to it).

I'd feel misled if I were you. I would write to London Midland expressing this succinctly, enclose the ticket and a photocopy of your railcard and ask for the difference to be reimbursed. I can't say for certain they will, but it's worth a shot.

 

[RPI]

Longbridge is a PF station and has a train every 10 mins to Five Ways so no real excuse to not have a ticket before boarding really. And the conductor had kept his word and sold a ticket!

 

[GadgetMan]

As it isn't the first time it's happened perhaps your wife needs to alter her approach slightly.

Either buy before boarding at all times (wherever facilities exist) or when asking the guard for permission to buy on board mention the railcard so she knows where she stands.

 

[Harlesden]

You have no grounds for complaint.
It is your wife's own choice to board a train without a ticket.
Except on quieter lines where paying on board is routine, it is normal as far as I am aware for only standard rate tickets to be available on board.
Did your wife actually state she had a railcard when asking if she could pay on board?

 

[455driver]

Your wife asked if she could buy a ticket on board, the guard said yes and sold her a ticket on board!
Whats the problem exactly?

Did your wife ask if she could buy a railcard discounted ticket on board?
Did your wife mention the railcard at all before boarding the train?
Did the guard say that the full range of tickets were available to buy on board before your wife boarded the train?

If the answer to all 3 is no then there is nothing to complain about.

I am sure the usual suspects will be along to say the guard is poorly trained or its the nasty railways fault etc!

 

[yorkie]

And are there any available documents which would support our complaint?

No. The Guard acted precisely in line with the relevant document (National Rail Conditions of Carriage).

To avoid any doubt, the question would have needed to be "Can I buy a discounted ticket on board?" (to make it crystal clear, while showing the Railcard)
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I am sure the usual suspects will be along to say the guard is poorly trained or its the nasty railways fault etc!

I think that's unlikely!

However if the question was asked on MSE, then, yeah you'd be right...

 

[maniacmartin]

I think that the guard should have made it clear that only undiscounted Anytimes would be available, as I think it is implied that this is what Mrs richardtheblue meant.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No. The Guard acted precisely in line with the relevant document (National Rail Conditions of Carriage).

Surely the relevant documents would instruct the guard to tell the passenger to buy at the station, not on board.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Longbridge is a PF station and has a train every 10 mins to Five Ways so no real excuse to not have a ticket before boarding really

Normally yes, but the guard giving permission to buy on board is a valid excuse.

 

[Yew]

SHe asked to buy a ticket on board, she was sold a ticket on board. However I agree that it could have been useful for the guard to mention about only undiscounted fares being available.

 

[RPI]

I think that the guard should have made it clear that only undiscounted Anytimes would be available, as I think it is implied that this is what Mrs richardtheblue meant.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Surely the relevant documents would instruct the guard to tell the passenger to buy at the station, not on board.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Normally yes, but the guard giving permission to buy on board is a valid excuse.

Not really much more to add, one day an RPI will be on the train and she will get a PF, i really dont understand how anyone could be in so much of a rush on the X City line that you can't wait 10 mins for the next train!

 

[RPM]

Oh come on, let's drop the jobsworth attitudes. The customer asked a reasonable question and the guard acted like a knob. End of.

 

[pemma]

i really dont understand how anyone could be in so much of a rush on the X City line that you can't wait 10 mins for the next train!

Maybe if you have a connection to make on to another service? If you happened to be changing on to a Birmingham-Liverpool service that calls at Acton Bridge you might have a very long wait for the next service.

 

[Eagle]

Oh come on, let's drop the jobsworth attitudes. The customer asked a reasonable question and the guard acted like a knob. End of.

How was the guard supposed to know she wanted a railcard-discounted ticket when first she asked? He gave the correct answer given the information he knew.

And let's not forget that he showed leniency by not issuing a penalty fare, which he had every right to.

 

[yorkie]

I think that the guard should have made it clear that only undiscounted Anytimes would be available, as I think it is implied that this is what Mrs richardtheblue meant.

Yes, I'd agree with that, but it's a moot point.

Surely the relevant documents would instruct the guard to tell the passenger to buy at the station, not on board.

They do not instruct the guard to say that, but the Guard could give such an instruction.

 

[RPM]

How was the guard supposed to know she wanted a railcard-discounted ticket when first she asked? He gave the correct answer given the information he knew.

And let's not forget that he showed leniency by not issuing a penalty fare, which he had every right to.

She ASKED if it was OK to board. She was told yes it was. He could have said yes, but I can only sell you a full price ticket but he didn't. This is indefensible, awkward bloody mindedness and it just isn't good enough. This sort of thing RUINS peoples' impression of the railway. Terrible PR, terrible customer service and there is NO NEED for it.

 

[pemma]

And let's not forget that he showed leniency by not issuing a penalty fare, which he had every right to.

1. Are LM conductors authorised to issue penalty fares? Sometimes it's only RPIs not conductors who can issue penalty fares.
2. According to the OP it seems the question was asked before boarding so if the conductor had said "No" or "Only full priced tickets are available on board" then the passenger would have been able to choose not to travel on that train.
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They do not instruct the guard to say that, but the Guard could give such an instruction.

I'm pretty sure that I've heard both automated and non-automated announcements on board CT and LM services which refer to anyone who chose to walk past an open ticket office is not entitled to purchase discounted tickets on board.

 

[island]

The guard should have said "yes, but not a discounted one".

 

[RPM]

The guard should have said "yes, but not a discounted one".

Or even "sorry, but no" would have been an improvement on what actually happened.

 

[tony_mac]

She ASKED if it was OK to board. She was told yes it was. He could have said yes, but I can only sell you a full price ticket but he didn't. This is indefensible, awkward bloody mindedness and it just isn't good enough. This sort of thing RUINS peoples' impression of the railway. Terrible PR, terrible customer service and there is NO NEED for it.

I couldn't agree more!
Yes, he stuck to the letter of the rules, but was being deliberately misleading (or so extremely obtuse that he shouldn't be working with the public at all!).
(Subject to the assumption that the report is accurate)

And let's not forget that he showed leniency by not issuing a penalty fare, which he had every right to.

No, he didn't. That's absurd.

no person shall be charged a penalty fare when a person acting on behalf of the operator of the relevant train indicated that the person in question was permitted to travel on the relevant train without having a ticket

(edited for brevity)

 

[BrownE]

Not really much more to add, one day an RPI will be on the train and she will get a PF, i really dont understand how anyone could be in so much of a rush on the X City line that you can't wait 10 mins for the next train!

And let's not forget that he showed leniency by not issuing a penalty fare, which he had every right to.

How can she get a Penalty Fare? The OP has clearly stated that she (his wife) asked permission to board the train. You cannot be charged a penalty fare when:

A person acting, or appearing to act, on behalf of the
operator of that train or station indicated that the person
was, or people generally were, allowed to board that train
without a ticket or other authority to travel.

 

[yorkie]

Are LM guards trained to issue Penalty Fares? I wouldn't have thought so. Anyway, you can't agree to sell a ticket and then issue a Penalty Fare!

In an ideal world, the customer would have mentioned the discount when asking, and/or the guard would have mentioned that the ticket would not be discounted when giving an answer, thus avoiding a misunderstanding. But there's no "available documents which would support [a] complaint" and I don't think a complaint is warranted.

 

[boing_uk]

I think this is a case of the "customer" not asking the right - or in this case, a too general - question of someone whose mind is perhaps paying more attention to their safety duties than on customer service at the time they were asked.

Given that the majority of customers are likely to want just a standard ticket and not a discounted one the guards response was entirely reasonable. And anyway, is it not the cardholders responsibility to know the restrictions on discounts when passing an open ticket office?

 

[Max]

I too think it is a bit unreasonable to sell the ticket without the Railcard discount. The OP's wife made the effort to ask permission to buy on board and that was given by the guard. The guard just conveniently "forgot" to mention the important disclaimer that it would only be a full price ticket. (Of course, he didn't actually forget, it was just a good trick to get the customer to pay more).

 

[island]

Are LM guards trained to issue Penalty Fares? I wouldn't have thought so. Anyway, you can't agree to sell a ticket and then issue a Penalty Fare!

I looked up the LM PF scheme and it says it does not intend to train on-train staff as authorized collectors.

 

[455driver]

Told you Yorkie, and only 35 minutes after you posted to say they wouldnt!-

Oh come on, let's drop the jobsworth attitudes. The customer asked a reasonable question and the guard acted like a knob. End of.

 

[RPM]

I think this is a case of the "customer" not asking the right - or in this case, a too general - question of someone whose mind is perhaps paying more attention to their safety duties than on customer service at the time they were asked.

Given that the majority of customers are likely to want just a standard ticket and not a discounted one the guards response was entirely reasonable. And anyway, is it not the cardholders responsibility to know the restrictions on discounts when passing an open ticket office?

In this situation surely "can I buy my ticket on the train?" equates to "can I buy (the same ticket that the ticket office would have sold me) on the train?". Not appreciating that would indicate a guard unaccustomed to social norms in everyday speech, or one determined to be an unreasonable sod. I would add that I know several LM guards very well, none of whom would dream of playing this trick on a customer.

With staff like that on the railway, it is no wonder that people come to stations with an preconceived "attitude". So many on here have replied with rigid, blinkered, trainspottery, inflexible views about something that is quite obviously grievously bad customer service. If you can't see that you shouldn't be in a customer-facing role.

 

[455driver]

She ASKED if it was OK to board. She was told yes it was. He could have said yes, but I can only sell you a full price ticket but he didn't. This is indefensible, awkward bloody mindedness and it just isn't good enough. This sort of thing RUINS peoples' impression of the railway. Terrible PR, terrible customer service and there is NO NEED for it.

I quite agree!

The guard should have said "no".
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I too think it is a bit unreasonable to sell the ticket without the Railcard discount. The OP's wife made the effort to ask permission to buy on board and that was given by the guard. The guard just conveniently "forgot" to mention the important disclaimer that it would only be a full price ticket. (Of course, he didn't actually forget, it was just a good trick to get the customer to pay more).

As did the OPs missus forget to mention the railcard in the first place!

You cant have it both ways!

 

[RPM]

I quite agree!

The guard should have said "no".

As an absolute minimum, yes. But he didn't did he?!
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How dare you stick up for us railstaff, apparently we are all little Hitlers according to one poster!

It's not a matter of sticking up for railstaff. I'm railstaff, so are my wife and daughter. I've worked on the retail side, both front line and as a manager, and I still I maintain that this guard acted in a way that brings the rail industry into disrepute. Unreasonable and counterproductive behaviour.

 

[Max]

As did the OPs missus forget to mention the railcard in the first place!

You cant have it both ways!

Clearly we don't know the exact details of the conversation, but I have had to cause to ask this question a couple of times to the guard and have said something along the lines of "I know this isn't normally allowed, but can I purchase my ticket from you onboard due to x and y". On the occasions where the guard has said yes, I have subsequently been sold discounted tickets. After demonstrating that I have an awareness of the rules on buying tickets before travel, I would be disappointed if the guard then refused to sell a Railcard discounted ticket because it is implied in the question that I mean the full range of tickets I'd normally be allowed to buy at the ticket office.

However, as mentioned previously, I don't know exactly what the OP's wife asked.