Plot To Replace Printed Timetables With QR Codes

[Bletchleyite]

I think we've got crossed wires here - my (frequent) use case for printed timetables is when I travel in from Charlbury to Oxford; I look on the live departures from Charlbury to find when the next train is and catch that; but then I need to figure out what time the trains are home. So I use the departure list at Oxford for that. I can't use the PIS at Oxford because (fairly obviously) it only shows the next screen's worth of departures.

Ah, I see. Yes, that's a gap, and something that the TVMs could be modified to provide.

 

[nickswift99]

No, they don't. This is yet another example of "perfection is the enemy of the good".

We are talking about timetable information, not your credit card details.

I think QR codes are a bit moot, though, as I can't imagine there are many people who have a smartphone and travel by train with any kind of regularity and don't have some form of railway app (99% of the time probably Trainline, but it doesn't overly matter) on it.

A hostile QR code can lead the viewer to download code that will compromise the device they're using completely. This is nothing to do with perfection but the basic fact that malware protection on mobile phones isn't great.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A hostile QR code can lead the viewer to download code that will compromise the device they're using completely. This is nothing to do with perfection but the basic fact that malware protection on mobile phones isn't great.

One way to mitigate that is to print the URL next to the QR code (also useful for anyone with a very basic phone or someone who hasn't a clue how to scan one). When you do scan one the URL is shown before you visit it so you can see it's correct.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Ah, I see. Yes, that's a gap, and something that the TVMs could be modified to provide.

They could, but given that the one at Charlbury can't even sell the right ticket for travel to London most of the time†, in reality it's probably easier to print out some pieces of A4 and stick them in a noticeboard, than to pay whatever consultancy has the TVM contract to reprogram it.

† At any time after 10.30, you probably want either a Peak (because you need to return during the evening restrictions) or a Super Off-Peak (SSR) to London. The initial screen of popular tickets on the TVM doesn't show the SSR, it only shows the Off-Peak (SVR). You have to know that the SSR exists, then to enter Paddington using the on-screen keyboard, then to select it. This, apparently, is because the machines only understand one off-peak cutover time, in this case the SOR->SVR cutoff. I do wonder if this new fondness for class-action suits, as per the boundary travelcard issue, could come into play here: a lot of people have arguably been sold a more expensive ticket than the one they needed.

 

[Trainfan2019]

As much as my nostalgia side likes the departure destinations posters, printed timetables etc, I tend to use these if I'm passing time at large stations. Mainly out of interest and curiosity to see range of destinations available, earliest and latest trains in the station, parliamentary trains etc.

A4 timetables displayed could be a cheaper option rather than large, more costly, destination posters. This would still cater for the minority that do not choose to go down the smartphone route.

I use my smartphone for tickets, train problems and journey planning as it is more convenient for me to do that. The technology is there and I choose to use it but fully understand and accept that not everyone can do this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

† At any time after 10.30, you probably want either a Peak (because you need to return during the evening restrictions) or a Super Off-Peak (SSR) to London. The initial screen of popular tickets on the TVM doesn't show the SSR, it only shows the Off-Peak (SVR). You have to know that the SSR exists, then to enter Paddington using the on-screen keyboard, then to select it. This, apparently, is because the machines only understand one off-peak cutover time, in this case the SOR->SVR cutoff. I do wonder if this new fondness for class-action suits, as per the boundary travelcard issue, could come into play here: a lot of people have arguably been sold a more expensive ticket than the one they needed.

I completely agree that the Shere FastTicket design of having popular destinations is better than the Scheidt & Bachmann design of having popular tickets. Very rarely is the ticket I want on that screen, even in the simple case of Bletchley.

 

[riceuten]

"Plot" ? Not like the Telegraph to see some vast conspiracy abounding to enrage their mainly elderly readership...

 

[CentralTrainer]

I know several people who regularly travel by train and do not own a mobile phone or computer so they use a printed timetable.
Perhaps a journey planner should be available in TVMs with the option to print the summary timetable results in the same way you can get a bank statement from the bank ATM.

Ticket machines at National Express Coach Stations (eg. Digbeth in Birmingham) have that facility. Works well.

 

[47296lastduff]

You're lucky if you have any printed sheets in your area. They just do not exist any more in North Wales (since about 18 months ago).

 

[221129]

How has everyone coped over the last 18 months when Timetable books haven't been out and these posters either non existent or out of date?

 

[Bletchleyite]

How has everyone coped over the last 18 months when Timetable books haven't been out and these posters either non existent or out of date?

A lot of people haven't travelled, to be fair.

 

[Master29]

good idea. make it happen asap. Lets join the 20th century rather than living in the 19th

I bet almost all of the 1% referred to are on this board!

In which case you'd still be 21 years behind.

 

[JKF]

Whatever happened to ‘cheap’ e-paper as used on Amazon Kindles? Surely that would be good for real-time timetables presented as posters like traditional timetables?

 

[Neo9320]

In which case you'd still be 21 years behind.

Lmao!!!!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Whatever happened to ‘cheap’ e-paper as used on Amazon Kindles? Surely that would be good for real-time timetables presented as posters like traditional timetables?

Some Councils are fitting those to bus stops, I believe TfL are experimenting with them as well.

 

[S&CLER]

How has everyone coped over the last 18 months when Timetable books haven't been out and these posters either non existent or out of date?

Look up the timetables (and I mean proper timetables and not journey planners) on line and print out the relevant pages for your journey, or use even older tech of pencil and paper and jot down the essential details. The cost of timetable booklets must be largely in the printing and distribution, not in generating them as files, which will have to continue to exist in any case. The tables themselves can still be presented in tabular form on line for those who prefer tabular form to journey planner style. There is a place for both. That said, I miss timetable books, especially the all-line one, but it's a hopeless lost cause in print format now.

 

[takno]

Seems like a lot of people I know who would normally look at a smartphone for everything still use the posters at the station, as much as anything else because they still work on the way home if you have a flat battery after a night out. I doubt I'd trust a printed timetable for longer journeys, but then I'd largely be doing them from a staffed station anyway. Paper is plenty reliable enough for local stations though.

FWIW we still have printed timetables at our local bus stops, and whilst 99% of users get on the bus without consulting them, the ones who do seem to find them quite useful

 

[Ianno87]

Some Councils are fitting those to bus stops, I believe TfL are experimenting with them as well.

Some in Cambridge too.

 

[WesternLancer]

As per the article, only 1% use them. So, no need at all of waste £2m on it.

If you end up at a station with no idea about trains because you have not looked earlier then that is your fault. What this thread is telling us is that some people are stuck in the past and it seems like the 1% are some people on this forum!

and who generated that 1% figure...?
just askin'

There are no facts in the article that are clearly supported - says "printed timetables cost £2m per year" - without saying if that is posters or booklets or both or what. Sort of stat they give out at my work when no one actually knows and someone from the press office says "we need a figure ASAP" so somebody just pulls a number out of the air and hopes no one asks for proof...

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

No, they don't. This is yet another example of "perfection is the enemy of the good".

We are talking about timetable information, not your credit card details.

I think QR codes are a bit moot, though, as I can't imagine there are many people who have a smartphone and travel by train with any kind of regularity and don't have some form of railway app (99% of the time probably Trainline, but it doesn't overly matter) on it.

None of my friends or family have a railway app.

 

[WesternLancer]

None of my friends or family have a railway app.

Yeah, and my partner has a smart phone but it's now outdated and won't run stuff from QR codes....but obviously if the railway don't want her money she won't care much if they don't want to clearly make the times readable to the human eye.

What about doing both printed info and a QR code system....and working PIS screens (and since we mention it, Help Points that someone actually answers and when they do can clearly understand the names of the stations you are at and wanting to go to - just like I can't understand say Indian Railway station names. I would not base a key customer info system in the UK and employ UK residents with little or no knowledge of India if I was running Indian railways....)

 

[Andyh82]

and who generated that 1% figure...?
just askin'

There are no facts in the article that are clearly supported - says "printed timetables cost £2m per year" - without saying if that is posters or booklets or both or what. Sort of stat they give out at my work when no one actually knows and someone from the press office says "we need a figure ASAP" so somebody just pulls a number out of the air and hopes no one asks for proof...

And how much is that £2m in the context of the overall spend of the railways?

Yes it sounds like a big chunk of money, but this is the railway, where millions are dished out every day for the slightest thing.

They could probably be done more cost effectively anyway, long lists of alphabetical departures, maybe they can bin those, but a single sheet with the departures from that station doesn’t seem like too big an ask, in the digital world or not

 

[WesternLancer]

And how much is that £2m in the context of the overall spend of the railways?

Yes it sounds like a big chunk of money, but this is the railway, where millions are dished out every day for the slightest thing.

They could probably be done more cost effectively anyway, long lists of alphabetical departures, maybe they can bin those, but a single sheet with the departures from that station doesn’t seem like too big an ask, in the digital world or not

Indeed.

And there are more fundamental points - £xxm have been spent making the railway compliant for passengers with disabilities, rightly so - it's a public service so it has to communicate with people in different modes. It takes tax payers money off everyone in society. It operates (as all such services do) in a different 'ball park' to private services who can choose, if they so wish, to ignore customers who are unable to use, say QR codes, on the basis of a commercial decision that the cost of 'old fashioned' info is not a cost they wish to bear any more. That is fine, the customer can go elsewhere or do without. But the railway has other obligations. It would do well to remember them, or taxpayers may decide it is no longer worthy of their contributions.

 

[Feuillesmortes]

I hope that if they want to make everyone use a smartphone, they are also planning to equip stations with 24 hour phone charging points and reliable wifi?

 

[david1212]

Details of all departures on printed posters just need to be functional not fancy. Setting them up on multiple sheets of A4 or A3 paper ought not to be difficult or costly.

The idea of generating a printout from a TVM while useful ties up the machine for those needing a ticket.

Screens are all very well for the time period ahead they show but times beyond that need to be available.

Last summer when on holiday, so better things to do than spend the evening before on a laptop looking at train times and writing them down, while I knew no printed timetables I expected to find a list of all departures at the destination. I had to ask a member of train crew on turnaround the times of departures around 5 hours later. All they could do was look up on their smartphone as far as I could tell just as any public user would, they did not have a proper railway specific device with at least the regional details stored or even a tablet.

 

[Horizon22]

Details of all departures on printed posters just need to be functional not fancy. Setting them up on multiple sheets of A4 or A3 paper ought not to be difficult or costly.

The idea of generating a printout from a TVM while useful ties up the machine for those needing a ticket.

Screens are all very well for the time period ahead they show but times beyond that need to be available.

Last summer when on holiday, so better things to do than spend the evening before on a laptop looking at train times and writing them down, while I knew no printed timetables I expected to find a list of all departures at the destination. I had to ask a member of train crew on turnaround the times of departures around 5 hours later. All they could do was look up on their smartphone as far as I could tell just as any public user would, they did not have a proper railway specific device with at least the regional details stored or even a tablet.

Why would there be anything specific though? All timetable information is readily available and is the same essential information that staff and public use alike. Things like Realtime Trains are more detailed than most systems and that's public to anyone. Staff might have more details such as crew / stock and could search by headcode but calling patterns are fundamentally defined through all systems. Most train crew have company-issued phones / tablets these days to assist with enquiries.

 

[_toommm_]

Some Councils are fitting those to bus stops, I believe TfL are experimenting with them as well.

They're awful things, as the backlights are very weak. Barely legible in the evenings, especially as they're high up. They're fitting them in Leeds and they're so bad compared to the old LED displays.

The capacity counter doesn't work either - always shows as low passenger numbers. First West Yorkshire for some reason still insist on social distance capacities, so they only allow 70ish on a double decker.

 

[AM9]

Look up the timetables (and I mean proper timetables and not journey planners) on line and print out the relevant pages for your journey, or use even older tech of pencil and paper and jot down the essential details. The cost of timetable booklets must be largely in the printing and distribution, not in generating them as files, which will have to continue to exist in any case. The tables themselves can still be presented in tabular form on line for those who prefer tabular form to journey planner style. There is a place for both. That said, I miss timetable books, especially the all-line one, but it's a hopeless lost cause in print format now.

That's exactly what I used to do when out on Rangers away from the south-east. Now I tend to use Real-time trains. Not only is that showing actual trains running (late, early of cancelled) but it is also useful to plan the next leg of a journey by swapping from train to station and then the next train etc.. Maybe that sort of data is too revealing for TOCs but it is there all the same.
However, I accept that not every passenger has either the knowledge of that site, how to use it if they fell upon it or even has the means of accessing it on the move. Smartphones aren't specified as a condition of travel.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Another option to look at is to simplify, i.e. rather than printing the large format glossy colour posters, have poster frames that take A4 pages and just run them off on the booking office laser, costing next to nothing.

I'd rather have a basic black and white A0 sized poster with the times on in the same format as the old MetroTrain "coloured lines" timetables, at least they're weren't station specific. So longs you've got a printed timetable there at least is some form of backup in case the PIS breaks.

As for the timetable leaflets, these should be retained but made available in A4 20 across format. Lines such as the Penistone Line / Severn Beach Line / Leeds - Carlisle/Heysham Lines / Esk Valley Line / various brachlines in Devon and Cornwall for example, could easily fit the entire weeks services on both sides of A4. The other alternative is to do a limited print run of GWR style timetable books and encourage those wishing to have the hard format can by purchasing it. I've bought the one of the three Derbyshire bus timetable books each year and they've served me well.

 

[Ianno87]

I hope that if they want to make everyone use a smartphone, they are also planning to equip stations with 24 hour phone charging points and reliable wifi?

It's certainly becoming much more commonplace.

Besides, most folk are in fact capable of taking responsibility for keeping their phone charged throughout the day.

My wife's grandma used to say "never pass up a good loo", to which I now say "never pass up a good phone charge opportunity".