Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

OTRail

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I've been trying to catch up on the state of the 769 conversion work via the different threads on here (been some discussion hasn't there haha - must have read through over 200 pages in the last couple of days). Anyway, whilst doing so I thought I would compile a list of what is going on and have come up with the following

NumberEx No.LiveryTOCDepot/LocationCurrent State
769000Northern & Flex brandingPorterbrookLong MarstonStored
769002319002TfWTfWCardiff CantonIn Service
769003319003TfWTfWCardiff CantonIn Service
769006319006Ex TL White & Blue DoorsTfWCardiff CantonIn Service
769007319007TfWTfWCardiff CantonUndergoing testing
769008319008TfWTfWCardiff CantonUndergoing testing
769421319421Ex TL White & Blue DoorsTfWCardiff CantonConverted - needing testing
769424319424NorthernAllertonUndergoing testing
769426319426Ex TL White & Blue DoorsTfWLoughborough WorksUndergoing conversion
769431319431NorthernNorthernAllerton
769434319343NorthernAllertonUndergoing testing
769442319442NorthernNorthernAllertonUndergoing testing
769445319445Ex TL White & Blue DoorsTfWCardiff CantonConverted - needing testing
769448319448NorthernNorthernAllertonUndergoing testing
769450319450NorthernNorthernAllertonUndergoing testing
769452319452TfWTfWCardiff CantonConverted - needing testing
769456319456NorthernNorthernLoughborough WorksUndergoing conversion
769458319458NorthernNorthernCrewe Arriva TraincareUndergoing testing
769922319422GWRWolverton WorksConversion work yet to start
769923319423GWRWolverton WorksConversion work yet to start
769925319425GWR
769927319427GWRWolverton WorksConversion work yet to start
769928319428GWRLong MarstonConversion work yet to start
769930319430GWRGWRNemesis Rail, BurtonConverted - now stored
769932319432GWRLong MarstonConversion work yet to start
769935319435GWRLong MarstonConversion work yet to start
769936319436GWRGWRNemesis Rail, BurtonConverted - now stored
769937319437GWRLoughborough WorksUndergoing conversion
769938319438GWRLong MarstonConversion work yet to start
769939319439GWRWolverton WorksConversion work yet to start
769940319440GWRReading TraincareConversion work yet to start
769943319443GWR
769944319444GWRDerby RTCConversion work yet to start
769946319446GWRGWRNemesis Rail, BurtonConverted - now stored
769947319447GWRWolverton WorksConversion work yet to start
769949319449GWRReading TraincareConversion work yet to start
769959319459GWRWolverton WorksConversion work yet to start



I still have a few blanks where I have not been able to locate any info (or my tiring eyes have missed it) and I am 100% sure that some of this data will be incorrect so if you can add to this, by filling in any blanks and/or correcting any errors then let me know and I will amend accordingly and repost
Wow they seem really behind with the GWR units - especially seeing as they were meant to enter service two years ago (then again the same could be said for Northern and TfW who had to wait longer)
 
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Jamesrob637

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Wow they seem really behind with the GWR units - especially seeing as they were meant to enter service two years ago (then again the same could be said for Northern and TfW who had to wait longer)

Yeah I don't think COVID is to blame (much) for this one..COVID is roughly the past year in the West.
 

OTRail

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Yeah I don't think COVID is to blame (much) for this one..COVID is roughly the past year in the West.
I think it’s a combination of Covid and conversion issues faced by Porterbrook, although mostly the latter (especially seeing as the GWR units are tri-mode)
 

Domh245

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especially seeing as the GWR units are tri-mode

Bi-mode dual voltage

It really shouldn't be a show stopper, they just need to make sure that the gensets can be fully isolated from the 750v bus when running on third rail and v.v. plus an extra set of buttons in the cab
 

DannyMich2018

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It's quite amusing that Northern ordered it's Class 195s and 331s in the same year (2016) as the Class 769s and all but one these 101 units are in service now but we are still awaiting the Class 769s which number only 8.....
 

Jamesrob637

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It's quite amusing that Northern ordered it's Class 195s and 331s in the same year (2016) as the Class 769s and all but one these 101 units are in service now but we are still awaiting the Class 769s which number only 8.....

The one we're waiting for was damaged in a low-speed accident as well so it would have otherwise been in service! Okay 195s and 331s do have a few more faults than one might deem acceptable but they're in service and that's what matters!
 

edwin_m

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Bi-mode dual voltage

It really shouldn't be a show stopper, they just need to make sure that the gensets can be fully isolated from the 750v bus when running on third rail and v.v. plus an extra set of buttons in the cab
Unless it's been de-scoped the GWR ones are supposed to have full aircon, which may be causing some issues.
 

Wyrleybart

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Unless it's been de-scoped the GWR ones are supposed to have full aircon, which may be causing some issues.

Definitely air con, or air cooling ? Not that it is probably much less technical.

The concern I have is that not a single GWR 769 has been out on 3rd rail metals to test it's practical abilities of switching between the MAN diesels, and the 750V DC. AIUI both systems need to independently use the DC bus under each solebar to power the train. To a simpleton like me I imagine a switching process where the electrickery from the two diesels has to be dumped from the bus, before it can take DC power through the third rail shoes, and vice versa. Presumably modern electronics can cope with that sort of task given we can land on Mars. Just not sure it can be done with class 769s on Network Rail very painlessly. .
 

Richard Scott

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Definitely air con, or air cooling ? Not that it is probably much less technical.

The concern I have is that not a single GWR 769 has been out on 3rd rail metals to test it's practical abilities of switching between the MAN diesels, and the 750V DC. AIUI both systems need to independently use the DC bus under each solebar to power the train. To a simpleton like me I imagine a switching process where the electrickery from the two diesels has to be dumped from the bus, before it can take DC power through the third rail shoes, and vice versa. Presumably modern electronics can cope with that sort of task given we can land on Mars. Just not sure it can be done with class 769s on Network Rail very painlessly. .
Would imagine there's a switching process where it'll only allow one supply to feed the 750V bus. Not anything difficult in theory!
 

RichT54

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Definitely air con, or air cooling ? Not that it is probably much less technical.

The concern I have is that not a single GWR 769 has been out on 3rd rail metals to test it's practical abilities of switching between the MAN diesels, and the 750V DC. AIUI both systems need to independently use the DC bus under each solebar to power the train. To a simpleton like me I imagine a switching process where the electrickery from the two diesels has to be dumped from the bus, before it can take DC power through the third rail shoes, and vice versa. Presumably modern electronics can cope with that sort of task given we can land on Mars. Just not sure it can be done with class 769s on Network Rail very painlessly. .
It has been posted in the GWR 769 thread that they will only switch between diesel and electric when stationary.
 

Wyrleybart

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Would imagine there's a switching process where it'll only allow one supply to feed the 750V bus. Not anything difficult in theory!

Hopefully not, but it is rather plain to see that half of the TfW 769s which are effectively only DEMUs are still not if traffic yet
It has been posted in the GWR 769 thread that they will only switch between diesel and electric when stationary.
I have seen that mentioned, but as I say, I am pretty sure the process has not been tested on any live 3rd rail yet, unless a GWR 769 has visited Asfordby, or Network Rail Wessex infrastructure.
 

Greybeard33

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The concern I have is that not a single GWR 769 has been out on 3rd rail metals to test it's practical abilities of switching between the MAN diesels, and the 750V DC. AIUI both systems need to independently use the DC bus under each solebar to power the train. To a simpleton like me I imagine a switching process where the electrickery from the two diesels has to be dumped from the bus, before it can take DC power through the third rail shoes, and vice versa. Presumably modern electronics can cope with that sort of task given we can land on Mars. Just not sure it can be done with class 769s on Network Rail very painlessly.
From more than two years (!) back upthread:
One thing in that article that answers one of my questions from some months ago: the "tri-mode" (AC, DC, diesel) versions are confirmed as having additional contactors to connect and disconnect the shoegear, and in fact have an additional DC "shoegear bus" that's separate from the train's original DC bus.

It will be but a second bus line is being installed to do it, the original DC bus being used for the Diesel side. Changeover between modes is only done when stationary.
 

Bikeman78

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It has been posted in the GWR 769 thread that they will only switch between diesel and electric when stationary.
So they will switch over at Wokingham and Reigate. Stoppers could also switch at Ash and Guildford. It will be a slog out of Guildford towards Reading on diesel power for the trains that don't stop at Ash.
 
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FGW_DID

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I've been trying to catch up on the state of the 769 conversion work via the different threads on here (been some discussion hasn't there haha - must have read through over 200 pages in the last couple of days). Anyway, whilst doing so I thought I would compile a list of what is going on and have come up with the following

NumberEx No.LiveryTOCDepot/LocationCurrent State
769000Northern & Flex brandingPorterbrookLong MarstonStored
769002319002TfWTfWCardiff CantonIn Service
769003319003TfWTfWCardiff CantonIn Service
769006319006Ex TL White & Blue DoorsTfWCardiff CantonIn Service
769007319007TfWTfWCardiff CantonUndergoing testing
769008319008TfWTfWCardiff CantonUndergoing testing
769421319421Ex TL White & Blue DoorsTfWCardiff CantonConverted - needing testing
769424319424NorthernAllertonUndergoing testing
769426319426Ex TL White & Blue DoorsTfWLoughborough WorksUndergoing conversion
769431319431NorthernNorthernAllerton
769434319343NorthernAllertonUndergoing testing
769442319442NorthernNorthernAllertonUndergoing testing
769445319445Ex TL White & Blue DoorsTfWCardiff CantonConverted - needing testing
769448319448NorthernNorthernAllertonUndergoing testing
769450319450NorthernNorthernAllertonUndergoing testing
769452319452TfWTfWCardiff CantonConverted - needing testing
769456319456NorthernNorthernLoughborough WorksUndergoing conversion
769458319458NorthernNorthernCrewe Arriva TraincareUndergoing testing
769922319422GWRWolverton WorksConversion work yet to start
769923319423GWRWolverton WorksConversion work yet to start
769925319425GWR
769927319427GWRWolverton WorksConversion work yet to start
769928319428GWRLong MarstonConversion work yet to start
769930319430GWRGWRNemesis Rail, BurtonConverted - now stored
769932319432GWRLong MarstonConversion work yet to start
769935319435GWRLong MarstonConversion work yet to start
769936319436GWRGWRNemesis Rail, BurtonConverted - now stored
769937319437GWRLoughborough WorksUndergoing conversion
769938319438GWRLong MarstonConversion work yet to start
769939319439GWRWolverton WorksConversion work yet to start
769940319440GWRReading TraincareConversion work yet to start
769943319443GWR
769944319444GWRDerby RTCConversion work yet to start
769946319446GWRGWRNemesis Rail, BurtonConverted - now stored
769947319447GWRWolverton WorksConversion work yet to start
769949319449GWRReading TraincareConversion work yet to start
769959319459GWRWolverton WorksConversion work yet to start
I still have a few blanks where I have not been able to locate any info (or my tiring eyes have missed it) and I am 100% sure that some of this data will be incorrect so if you can add to this, by filling in any blanks and/or correcting any errors then let me know and I will amend accordingly and repost

GWR 769930 & 769936 are both at Reading TCD undergoing acceptance exams.
GWR 769943 was returned to Burton from Reading TCD for “remedial work”
319440 & 319449 are no longer at Reading TCD, both went to Wolverton to start the conversion work.
 

DelW

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So they will switch over at Wokingham and Reigate. Stoppers could also switch at Ash and Guildford. It will be a slog out of Guildford towards Reading on diesel power for the trains that don't stop at Ash.
That's about 2 miles at 1:100. Although that could be mitigated by running on DC, there are worse climbs on the route that can't - westbound trains leaving Deepdene face over 4 miles of climbing from a standing start, almost entirely at 1:100 and 1:96. Eastbound there's about a 3.5 mile climb mostly at 1:100 and 1:96, with Chilworth part way up it. I suspect those may be quite a test of the engines' cooling systems, not to mention timekeeping. I'll be interested to try them out whenever they finally appear.

Presumably with reduced timetables at present, there's less need to move the Turbos elsewhere yet.
 

OTRail

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Presumably with reduced timetables at present, there's less need to move the Turbos elsewhere yet.
Not to mention the Pacers have now been withdrawn, meaning that there is less pressure in terms of PRM compliance for the 769s to be brought in.
 

The_Train

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Updated list - thanks to @FGW_DID, @Wyrleybart & @507021 for the info

NumberEx No.LiveryTOCDepot/LocationCurrent State
769002319002TfWTfWCardiff CantonIn Service
769003319003TfWTfWCardiff CantonIn Service
769006319006Ex TL White & Blue DoorsTfWCardiff CantonIn Service
769007319007TfWTfWCardiff CantonIn Service
769008319008TfWTfWCardiff CantonUndergoing testing
769421319421Ex TL White & Blue DoorsTfWCardiff CantonConverted - needing testing
769424319424NorthernNorthernAllertonUndergoing testing
769426319426Ex TL White & Blue DoorsTfWLoughborough WorksUndergoing conversion
769431319431NorthernNorthernAllerton
769434319343NorthernNorthernAllertonUndergoing testing
769442319442NorthernNorthernAllertonUndergoing testing
769445319445Ex TL White & Blue DoorsTfWCardiff CantonConverted - needing testing
769448319448NorthernNorthernAllertonUndergoing testing
769450319450NorthernNorthernAllertonUndergoing testing
769452319452TfWTfWCardiff CantonUndergoing testing
769456319456NorthernNorthernLoughborough WorksUndergoing conversion
769458319458NorthernNorthernCrewe Arriva TraincareUndergoing testing
769922319422GWRWolverton WorksConversion work yet to start
769923319423GWRWolverton WorksConversion work yet to start
769925319425GWR
769927319427GWRWolverton WorksConversion work yet to start
769928319428GWRLong MarstonConversion work yet to start
769930319430GWRGWRReading TraincareUndergoing acceptance exam
769932319432GWRLong MarstonConversion work yet to start
769935319435GWRLong MarstonConversion work yet to start
769936319436GWRGWRReading TraincareUndergoing acceptance exam
769937319437GWRLoughborough WorksUndergoing conversion
769938319438GWRLong MarstonConversion work yet to start
769939319439GWRWolverton WorksConversion work yet to start
769940319440GWRWolverton WorksUndergoing conversion
769943319443GWRNemesis Rail, BurtonConverted - undergoing maintenance
769944319444GWRDerby RTCConverted - now stored
769946319446GWRGWRNemesis Rail, BurtonConverted - now stored
769947319447GWRWolverton WorksConversion work yet to start
769949319449GWRWolverton WorksUndergoing conversion
769959319459GWRWolverton WorksConversion work yet to start

Are these units retaining the same coach numbers that they had when 319s?
 
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Updated list - thanks to @FGW_DID, @Wyrleybart & @507021 for the info

NumberEx No.LiveryTOCDepot/LocationCurrent State
769002319002TfWTfWCardiff CantonIn Service
769003319003TfWTfWCardiff CantonIn Service
769006319006Ex TL White & Blue DoorsTfWCardiff CantonIn Service
769007319007TfWTfWCardiff CantonIn Service
769008319008TfWTfWCardiff CantonUndergoing testing
769421319421Ex TL White & Blue DoorsTfWCardiff CantonConverted - needing testing
769424319424NorthernNorthernAllertonUndergoing testing
769426319426Ex TL White & Blue DoorsTfWLoughborough WorksUndergoing conversion
769431319431NorthernNorthernAllerton
769434319343NorthernNorthernAllertonUndergoing testing
769442319442NorthernNorthernAllertonUndergoing testing
769445319445Ex TL White & Blue DoorsTfWCardiff CantonConverted - needing testing
769448319448NorthernNorthernAllertonUndergoing testing
769450319450NorthernNorthernAllertonUndergoing testing
769452319452TfWTfWCardiff CantonUndergoing testing
769456319456NorthernNorthernLoughborough WorksUndergoing conversion
769458319458NorthernNorthernCrewe Arriva TraincareUndergoing testing
769922319422GWRWolverton WorksConversion work yet to start
769923319423GWRWolverton WorksConversion work yet to start
769925319425GWR
769927319427GWRWolverton WorksConversion work yet to start
769928319428GWRLong MarstonConversion work yet to start
769930319430GWRGWRReading TraincareUndergoing acceptance exam
769932319432GWRLong MarstonConversion work yet to start
769935319435GWRLong MarstonConversion work yet to start
769936319436GWRGWRReading TraincareUndergoing acceptance exam
769937319437GWRLoughborough WorksUndergoing conversion
769938319438GWRLong MarstonConversion work yet to start
769939319439GWRWolverton WorksConversion work yet to start
769940319440GWRWolverton WorksUndergoing conversion
769943319443GWRNemesis Rail, BurtonConverted - undergoing maintenance
769944319444GWRDerby RTCConverted - now stored
769946319446GWRGWRNemesis Rail, BurtonConverted - now stored
769947319447GWRWolverton WorksConversion work yet to start
769949319449GWRWolverton WorksUndergoing conversion
769959319459GWRWolverton WorksConversion work yet to start

Are these units retaining the same coach numbers that they had when 319s?
As far as I know they will be the same numbers, as I saw a carriage from 319449 in unbranded GWR green with it's 319 carriage number applied.


My Photo below.
 

The_Train

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Might need to edit 319343 to 434.
:D Amended it on the spreadsheet but won't repost just for that change. Will show on the next update!

As far as I know they will be the same numbers, as I saw a carriage from 319449 in unbranded GWR green with it's 319 carriage number applied.


My Photo below.
My impression was that the coach numbers would remain as they were. This certainly suggests that this will be the case - thanks for sharing :)
 

Bikeman78

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That's about 2 miles at 1:100. Although that could be mitigated by running on DC, there are worse climbs on the route that can't - westbound trains leaving Deepdene face over 4 miles of climbing from a standing start, almost entirely at 1:100 and 1:96. Eastbound there's about a 3.5 mile climb mostly at 1:100 and 1:96, with Chilworth part way up it. I suspect those may be quite a test of the engines' cooling systems, not to mention timekeeping. I'll be interested to try them out whenever they finally appear.

Presumably with reduced timetables at present, there's less need to move the Turbos elsewhere yet.
I'd forgotten about the climb west of Dorking. Does anyone know the gradient from Heath to Llanishen to Lisvane & Thornhill for comparison?
 

AM9

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I'd forgotten about the climb west of Dorking. Does anyone know the gradient from Heath to Llanishen to Lisvane & Thornhill for comparison?
The Railway Data Centre is a bit confused, - Heath is midway up a 1:50 drag on the graphic byt the figures below show 1:80 and 1:84. From Llanishen to Lisvane & Thornhill, it is 1:77.
 

Roger B

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16 Jun 2018
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Location
Gatley
Updated list - thanks to @FGW_DID, @Wyrleybart & @507021 for the info

NumberEx No.LiveryTOCDepot/LocationCurrent State
769002319002TfWTfWCardiff CantonIn Service
769003319003TfWTfWCardiff CantonIn Service
769006319006Ex TL White & Blue DoorsTfWCardiff CantonIn Service
769007319007TfWTfWCardiff CantonIn Service
769008319008TfWTfWCardiff CantonUndergoing testing
769421319421Ex TL White & Blue DoorsTfWCardiff CantonConverted - needing testing
769424319424NorthernNorthernAllertonUndergoing testing
769426319426Ex TL White & Blue DoorsTfWLoughborough WorksUndergoing conversion
769431319431NorthernNorthernAllerton
769434319343NorthernNorthernAllertonUndergoing testing
769442319442NorthernNorthernAllertonUndergoing testing
769445319445Ex TL White & Blue DoorsTfWCardiff CantonConverted - needing testing
769448319448NorthernNorthernAllertonUndergoing testing
769450319450NorthernNorthernAllertonUndergoing testing
769452319452TfWTfWCardiff CantonUndergoing testing
769456319456NorthernNorthernLoughborough WorksUndergoing conversion
769458319458NorthernNorthernCrewe Arriva TraincareUndergoing testing
769922319422GWRWolverton WorksConversion work yet to start
769923319423GWRWolverton WorksConversion work yet to start
769925319425GWR
769927319427GWRWolverton WorksConversion work yet to start
769928319428GWRLong MarstonConversion work yet to start
769930319430GWRGWRReading TraincareUndergoing acceptance exam
769932319432GWRLong MarstonConversion work yet to start
769935319435GWRLong MarstonConversion work yet to start
769936319436GWRGWRReading TraincareUndergoing acceptance exam
769937319437GWRLoughborough WorksUndergoing conversion
769938319438GWRLong MarstonConversion work yet to start
769939319439GWRWolverton WorksConversion work yet to start
769940319440GWRWolverton WorksUndergoing conversion
769943319443GWRNemesis Rail, BurtonConverted - undergoing maintenance
769944319444GWRDerby RTCConverted - now stored
769946319446GWRGWRNemesis Rail, BurtonConverted - now stored
769947319447GWRWolverton WorksConversion work yet to start
769949319449GWRWolverton WorksUndergoing conversion
769959319459GWRWolverton WorksConversion work yet to start

Are these units retaining the same coach numbers that they had when 319s?
Thanks for the updates. What about the Orion ones (009, 373, + others)? Or are these staying as 319s?
 

Wyrleybart

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That's about 2 miles at 1:100. Although that could be mitigated by running on DC, there are worse climbs on the route that can't - westbound trains leaving Deepdene face over 4 miles of climbing from a standing start, almost entirely at 1:100 and 1:96. Eastbound there's about a 3.5 mile climb mostly at 1:100 and 1:96, with Chilworth part way up it. I suspect those may be quite a test of the engines' cooling systems, not to mention timekeeping. I'll be interested to try them out whenever they finally appear.

Presumably with reduced timetables at present, there's less need to move the Turbos elsewhere yet.

Undoubtedly some tough climbs on the Downs, but are they more onerous than the Rhymney line andsay Miles Platting which I believe the Northern ones are (or were) intended to climb when they were to run to Stalybridge. Unsure of the current Northern plan for 769s.
 

Wyrleybart

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Location
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/3s staying as 319s, /0s converted to 769/5s

I think the future for the Orion units depends on the success of the operation. IIRC the initial media release was ROG acquiring three units with two converted to 769 or 799 at Eastleigh. At the same time the third unit 319373 was vinyled at Eastleigh and has been on a mini tour to promote Orion. AFAIK this is still a 319 under the vinyi and I read that the initial plans for ROG were to run shuttles in and out of Liverpool St. There is a suggestion a 769 and a 319 could run in multi from Liverpool St to the end of electrification withthe 769.s diesels taking the train the rest of the way to London Gateway. If that is the case there will presumably be a modification to the 319 to receive auxillary power for lighting and controls from it's 769 power.

I wonder if there is an ability for the Orion 319s to open their doors manually, or by power from a hauling traction unit - say a 47 or 57.
 

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