All 8 Northern
At what point do Northern just bite the bullet and say "let's just get 10 bi-mode 331s"? The bi-modes will probably happen - the hold up is CAF doing the development work to modify the 331.
Well there's a few issues to deal with first:
There was always going to be an experimental element with these trains and their entry into service took a lot longer than originally planned. Since the start of the project the need for short/medium term bimodes has become more urgent. However, the Covid crisis must make the ordering of any new trains financially delicate.
Yes ideally, but as I said upthread, every failure is part of a process to remove those modes. As far as I know, there isn't anybody on here in a position to give official information on this process so if that is true then we are all speculating on their prospects, Those who seen to have pet hate of the 769s (which I suspect is a extension to the view of the cascaded 319s being 'London cast offs') just call for the programme to be abandoned and for new trains to be ordered. They shouldn't hold their breath on that one!
Yes, we should expect at least five to be in service with another spare, leaving 2more spare spares given that on introduction they should be perfect!
So would most people be 'peeved' if a train failure caused their travel arrangements to be disrupted.
It doesn't seem that anybody on this furum has inside information (to offer) but I don't accept that random personal anecdotes represent a source of useful information either.
Trying to address the scandalous practice of operating diesel trains on lines with full OLE is far from 'environmental virtue signalling' and something that will be increasingly needed in the future. Every 769 that runs a Sothport to Alderley Edge diagram is about a 46% saving in diesel burning including not adding to pollution in the Castlefield corridor. The trains are also said to be more economical than the 150s and also according to almost every report, much quieter. 40 year old torque converters are no match for an genset and DC traction motors.
I’d be leaning towards options 1 or 2. The question with option 1 is how long will it take to electrify a sufficient number of lines that all 150s can be taken out of service, followed in the next few years by 156s and 158s, leaving all remaining unelectrified lines in the hands of 195s and battery units (some 331s e.g. Windermere or potentially 777s in the case of Ormskirk - Preston and Ellesmere Port - Helsby). Will hydrogen have become mainstream by then to power trains on routes where electrification is uneconomic?
I presume you know when the first 769 was trialled on the WCML. Answer: a 769 first reached Southport on a test run on 25 February 2020, without any interior fittings present e.g. seats, where the engines failed to start for the return working so it was left there for a few days and they first ran in passenger service to Southport on 17 May 2021.
It appears they reverse there en route from Allerton Depot to Wigan. Apparently it’s also possible to catch an 8 car 769 ECS at Lime Street. https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L10550/2021-07-13/detailed#allox_id=0
The last arrival at Southport starts at Blackburn, so is always run by a Sprinter and it arrives at least 40 minutes after the last connecting Merseyrail service has left. At the other end, the last departure that can be a 769 only goes as far as Wigan and is supposed to there long before the last connections leave.
The total distance from Southport to Alderley Edge via Bolton and Stockport is 51 miles 75 chains. Of this, the 769s run 27 miles 11 chains on Diesel and 24 miles 64 chains on electric. This equates to a 47.75% saving on Diesel mileage under the wires, however if trains on the Wigan side could stop at Lostock, where the electrification actually starts, this saves a further 3 miles 3 chains under the wires, running 53.6% of the route mileage with the pan up. This does mean that any DMU on a Southport - Alderley Edge diagram is running for most of the distance under the wires. Every 769 eliminates 89.1% of this Diesel mileage. I haven’t done the working out for services that terminate at Stalybridge or Oxford Road, or that run via Atherton, but they obviously aren’t as bad. The Stalybridge electrification changes things though. Buxton and Windermere services are some of the other worst offenders. It should be noted that the engines themselves on 150s are almost 40 years old. The engines fitted to 195s and 769s are brand new and therefore much more efficient and equally less polluting.
As the Hydrogen units are using a model involving losing seats to fit power plants inside the train (as do the Anglia Stadler) is there anything stopping diesel hybrids doing the same?
I have a picture of a 769 at Southport taken on February 20th 2020 with seats fitted, although I do think that they had been going to Southport several times a week for a few weeks before that.
Yes there were, - see post #4461 of this thread for three pictures of 769s. One of 769442, one of 769450 and a third with no number showing but definitely Southport station.
No, the Northern 769s were not originally ordered for the Southport line.
And that is the problem as even though the engines don’t meet the latest standard environment wise they are much better than the 40 year old Sprinter engines !! So far better to use those and accept they dont meet the standard for the limited remaining life of these converted units
The post you quoted is a question, not a statement.
It's up to the government to make an exception allowing that.
The 6 diagrammed have worked all their services today.
The ones fitted at the moment are euro 6 sprinters dont even fit into the euro scale
