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Possible end to paper tickets in South East?

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davews

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All sorts of questions are being raised. Maybe the fundamental issue with a contactless PAYG system is that it has no idea what your final destination(s) are until you finish the day. Take a trip up to London from (say) Martins Heron. You tap in at the start, then do various tube/train/bus trips while up town, finally tapping out when you get back to Martins Heron. Will the system be clever enough to charge you the travel card rate or a trip up to Waterloo and various tube trips if that works out the cheaper option? And of course adding the correct railcard discount?
I am not fundamentally against the contactless system, after all it works quite well on the tube, but there are too many unknowns with such a blind tap in tap out system when extended to the wider network.
 
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JonathanH

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You tap in at the start, then do various tube/train/bus trips while up town, finally tapping out when you get back to Martins Heron. Will the system be clever enough to charge you the travel card rate or a trip up to Waterloo and various tube trips if that works out the cheaper option?
If it is fully integrated with the London system, all the evidence to date from current extensions is that yes, you would reach a cap in London and then be charged an extension fare to Martins Heron. However, the actual boundary fares aren't necessarily published.
 

johncrossley

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The Dutch are in the process of introducing 'OVpay', where you will be able to use a contactless debit card instead of the nationwide OV-Chipkaart smartcard:


With your contactless debit card or credit card​

Checking in and out with your contactless debit card, credit credit card or wearable. It will soon all be possible. No OV-chipkaart, no subscription – it’s that simple. Perfect for a spontaneous day out!

They have a wide range of railcard discounts, so it may be interesting to see how they do it, so that lessons can be learned. The Dutch aren't afraid to learn from London:


OVpay is coming​

But it’s not going to suddenly be everywhere overnight. Rome wasn’t built in a day. First, we will be taking a thorough look at what works and what doesn’t. We’ll be taking into account what we’ve learned from the OV-chipkaart over the last 16 years. Additionally, we'll be looking at what other countries are doing. For example, in London they’ve already launched contactless check-in and check-out with debit cards. We can learn a lot from them!
 

Mainline421

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The simple solution is just to issue railcards as ITSO, which can be set by the passenger to either charge a linked card when they touch out or just topped via TVMs through cash or card. If you buy an advance you just show it was you would now.
 

MotCO

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If it is fully integrated with the London system, all the evidence to date from current extensions is that yes, you would reach a cap in London and then be charged an extension fare to Martins Heron. However, the actual boundary fares aren't necessarily published.

And what if you forget to tap out at an open-barriered station, or the reader doesn't read it for some reason? Do you get charged the maximum day rate (which could be horrendous)? The TfL back office has been praised by Roger French for a no-quibble attitude to correcting such oversights/errors; will southeastern be so accommodating?
 

PeterC

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There are two obvious ways. One is to allow the registration of the Railcard against the contactless account (people shouldn't be using other peoples' payment cards anyway), the other is that you make the Railcard itself the payment card and connect it to a payment card in the back end account.
To be pedantic you would create a transit account to which both the railcard and one or many contactless cards would be linked.

There would undoubtedly be some losers. Allowing random companions would probably end up in the "too difficult" box.
 

NorthOxonian

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The Dutch are in the process of introducing 'OVpay', where you will be able to use a contactless debit card instead of the nationwide OV-Chipkaart smartcard:




They have a wide range of railcard discounts, so it may be interesting to see how they do it, so that lessons can be learned. The Dutch aren't afraid to learn from London:

What's the maximum fare on the Dutch network (roughly)? Is it comparable to the maximum fare in the South East (or at least the narrower definition of it used in the consultation in post #17)?
 

johncrossley

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What's the maximum fare on the Dutch network (roughly)? Is it comparable to the maximum fare in the South East (or at least the narrower definition of it used in the consultation in post #17)?

About 35 EUR single. They don't have returns.
 

87 027

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As I understand it the limitation of railcards on contactless debit/credit cards is that the banks don't permit the transport provider to write any data to the card itself, so unlike Oyster there is currently no flag indicated during a real-time on board revenue inspection that a railcard needs to be presented alongside the debit/credit card. Perhaps the answer is to issue railcards on ITSO, associate them with the debit/credit card in the back office systems, and make it clear in the Ts&Cs that both should be presented to the reader at the time of an on board ticket inspection to prevent a penalty being applied at the back end. Not sure how this would work at gatelines whilst providing acceptably quick throughput however.

I am assuming that requiring a card reader to make a call to the back end database for every single card checked would make ticket inspections unacceptably slow in real world operation
 
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ess

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A single contactless system would be really sensible. Take Windsor for example. From Riverside station you can set up a SWR Smartcard to do pay as you go, or from Central station you can’t do pay as you go but can once you get to Slough using any credit/debit card… but not Oyster until Zone 6. That is not simplification
 

Doctor Fegg

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Anything that rebalances affordable fares away from Advances and back towards turn-up-and-go sounds good to me. Bring it on.
 

JonathanH

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The TfL back office has been praised by Roger French for a no-quibble attitude to correcting such oversights/errors; will southeastern be so accommodating?
Given the tender is to find a partner to implement one solution that is an upscaled version of TfL's system, the principles around the helpline could be entirely consistent.

Anything that rebalances affordable fares away from Advances and back towards turn-up-and-go sounds good to me. Bring it on.
That isn't what this is about. You would imagine that the DfT will want revenue neutrality at best. However, the implementation of a single fare structure like that in London should achieve closer alignment of single fares.

There are already examples - eg Reading, Gatwick which suggest how fares might be structured.
 

Starmill

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The Dutch are in the process of introducing 'OVpay', where you will be able to use a contactless debit card instead of the nationwide OV-Chipkaart smartcard:




They have a wide range of railcard discounts, so it may be interesting to see how they do it, so that lessons can be learned. The Dutch aren't afraid to learn from London:

It's relatively easy though because fares in the Netherlands are effectively set at the local rate everywhere*, so no £184.70 singles like Manchester to London.



*Cards cannot be used on Thalys or Eurostar which do charge a hefty premium, and there is a small supplement for ICE and IC Direct trains.
 

johncrossley

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The TfL back office has been praised by Roger French for a no-quibble attitude to correcting such oversights/errors; will southeastern be so accommodating?

Manchester Metrolink, various bus companies, Edinburgh trams etc. also have contactless systems. They surely make adjustments after travelling without arguing. It is a necessary aspect of having such a system.

It's relatively easy though because fares in the Netherlands are effectively set at the local rate everywhere*, so no £184.70 singles like Manchester to London.

Why is this relevant when there are only plans to rollout a contactless system in SE England?
 

PeterC

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As I understand it the limitation of railcards on contactless debit/credit cards is that the banks don't permit the transport provider to write any data to the card itself, so unlike Oyster there is currently no flag indicated during a real-time on board revenue inspection that a railcard needs to be presented alongside the debit/credit card. Perhaps the answer is to issue railcards on ITSO, associate them with the debit/credit card in the back office systems, and make it clear in the Ts&Cs that both should be presented to the reader at the time of an on board ticket inspection to prevent a penalty being applied at the back end. Not sure how this would work at gatelines whilst providing acceptably quick throughput however.

I am assuming that requiring a card reader to make a call to the back end database for every single card checked would make ticket inspections unacceptably slow in real world operation
Why make things complicated. Inspector collects numbers of all cards being used. As part of end of day processing these are matched to customer touches. If no match then max fare applies.
 

Doctor Fegg

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That isn't what this is about. You would imagine that the DfT will want revenue neutrality at best. However, the implementation of a single fare structure like that in London should achieve closer alignment of single fares.
It may not be what it's ostensibly "about", but changing the preferred form of ticket purchase to contactless can't but have a massive impact.

Travelling from my local (ex-NSE) station to Paddington, for a randomly chosen train in December, I'm given a choice between an £11.80 advance or a £72.80 SOS. That is an insane disparity for what is the same product. If DfT wants to encourage adoption of contactless, it's going to need to reduce that gap.
 

Bletchleyite

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Anything that rebalances affordable fares away from Advances and back towards turn-up-and-go sounds good to me. Bring it on.

Advances aren't really a huge thing in the South East commuter area anyway. They exist but they are nowhere near being the majority of what people use, unlike InterCity where they now very much are.

It may not be what it's ostensibly "about", but changing the preferred form of ticket purchase to contactless can't but have a massive impact.

Travelling from my local (ex-NSE) station to Paddington, for a randomly chosen train in December, I'm given a choice between an £11.80 advance or a £72.80 SOS. That is an insane disparity for what is the same product. If DfT wants to encourage adoption of contactless, it's going to need to reduce that gap.

Presumably though a 72.90 Off Peak Day Return, which is a far less outrageous 36.45 each way? And most people in the SE don't book a day trip to London months in advance, so the true "bargain basement" Advances are a bit of a false comparison.
 

Mainline421

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Perhaps the answer is to issue railcards on ITSO, associate them with the debit/credit card in the back office systems, and make it clear in the Ts&Cs that both should be presented to the reader at the time of an on board ticket inspection to prevent a penalty being applied at the back end. Not sure how this would work at gatelines whilst providing acceptably quick throughput however.

I am assuming that requiring a card reader to make a call to the back end database for every single card checked would make ticket inspections unacceptably slow in real world operation
Would be needlessly complicated to require both to be checked. All that's needed is SWR's Tap To Go system https://www.southwesternrailway.com/train-tickets/ticket-types/tap2go But with the railcard acting as the smartcard to get the discount, like Zip Oyster cards in London. This would also eliminate forgotten railcards and adding railcards to Oyster cards, as the railcard would function as your ticket.
 

Starmill

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Why is this relevant when there are only plans to rollout a contactless system in SE England?
I was responding to those pondering that it could be national here because it is national there. But it's not enormously better if you were to take the current Network Railcard area. Among the commonly sold tickets will be things like Bournemouth to Covent Garden at £65.30 each way, Worcester Shrub Hill to Canary Wharf at £48.80, or Dover Priory to South Kensington for £53.90. Obviously there will also occasionally be much much more expensive tickets sold.
 

HST274

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Surely they would need to keep paper tickets there if you are travelling too/from the south east area, or would it be like you travel to the boundary and have to buy a new ticket? Sorry if this is a stupid question.
 

Bletchleyite

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Surely they would need to keep paper tickets there if you are travelling too/from the south east area, or would it be like you travel to the boundary and have to buy a new ticket? Sorry if this is a stupid question.

I think there is some hyperbole going on and paper tickets would not be abolished completely. After all, LU hasn't abolished them yet.
 

johncrossley

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I was responding to the preponderance that it could be national here because it is national there. But it's not enormously better if you were to take the current Network Railcard area. Among the commonly sold tickets will be things like Bournemouth to Covent Garden at £65.30 each way, Worcester Shrub Hill to Canary Wharf at £48.80, or Dover Priory to South Kensington for £53.90. Obviously there will also occasionally be much much more expensive tickets sold.

It would be a surprise if the whole Network Railcard area is covered. However, Metrolink has a £45 contactless 'standard' (penalty) fare which is a lot considering the size of that network. This has been increased from £30 to £45 which were, coincidentally, previous retail contactless limits, even though transit isn't supposed to have such a limit. So I wouldn't be surprised to see this increase to £100, which would make it the same as the normal standard fare which is applied for on the spot penalties. A £100 maximum fare for incomplete journeys in SE England doesn't sound too outrageous by comparison.
 

Bletchleyite

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It would be a surprise if the whole Network Railcard area is covered. However, Metrolink has a £45 contactless 'standard' (penalty) fare which is a lot considering the size of that network. This has been increased from £30 to £45 which were, coincidentally, previous retail contactless limits, even though transit isn't supposed to have such a limit. So I wouldn't be surprised to see this increase to £100, which would make it the same as the normal standard fare which is applied for on the spot penalties. A £100 maximum fare for incomplete journeys in SE England doesn't sound too outrageous by comparison.

You could also have it so if you signed up for an account rather than just a random card you could perhaps be notified and offered a chance to complete the journey online by selecting the station and arrival time. This could be offered on a sliding sort of scale - perhaps two instances per 12 months for free, then one for a £10 fee, then a £20 fee, perhaps?

As most people make return journeys, you can also make some assumptions, e.g. if you touch in at Bletchley, and then later touch in at Euston on the same day as your next touch, it is almost certainly the case that the outward journey was to Euston. If you want to avoid such assumptions, make sure you touch in and out correctly.
 

JonathanH

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I think there is some hyperbole going on and paper tickets would not be abolished completely. After all, LU hasn't abolished them yet.
Yes, there is some hyperbole but it was stated RDG policy to move to a single fare pricing model and, even if RDG loses some of its roles, it is feasible that the same people gain a role in fare policy within the GBR set up.

LU paper fares for single journeys are priced at rates to discourage their use. Even travelcards, while not priced punatively, are more expensive on paper than Oyster / Contactless.

However, to address the comment of the OP, there clearly have to continue to be through tickets into whatever area where a new fare structure applies. Clearly, the edge effects of this are interesting if current break of journey provisions continue to apply on the current structure and are effectively lost in the pricing model within the new zone.
 

Bletchleyite

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Single fare pricing is likely on a national basis at some point, and to me this is good. After all one of the main trials has been LNER. The question is if you would punitively price paper tickets in the SE, and I'm not sure they necessarily would.
 

JonathanH

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The question is if you would punitively price paper tickets in the SE, and I'm not sure they necessarily would.
It will depend on whether there is a desire to try to make the Contactless structure the default given the investment in it and the chance for people to choose one structure over another to get the most value.

I agree that the tender notice doesn't imply that it would be a wholesale replacement.
 

Bletchleyite

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It will depend on whether there is a desire to try to make the Contactless structure the default given the investment in it and the chance for people to choose one structure over another to get the most value.

I think people would very likely choose it anyway. People are choosing e-tickets in droves despite there being no penalty at all, for choosing paper instead.

The punitive LU single fares go back to the days when they needed to push people into acquiring Oyster cards. If it was a new project now I wouldn't expect more than a small discount, as people will use it anyway because it is convenient.
 

johncrossley

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The punitive LU single fares go back to the days when they needed to push people into acquiring Oyster cards. If it was a new project now I wouldn't expect more than a small discount, as people will use it anyway because it is convenient.

That follows if you look at the more recent extensions to Oyster/contactless (i.e. long after the time when there was a push to encourage people to get Oyster cards). Contactless is almost exactly half the day return. For example:

Gatwick to East Croydon
contactless off-peak £3.40, £6.90 Off Peak Day Return
contactless peak £5.50, £11.10 Anytime Day Return

Reading to Paddington
contactless off-peak £10.90, £21.90 Off Peak Day Return
contactless peak £25.10, £50.20 Anytime Day Return
 

87 027

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Would be needlessly complicated to require both to be checked. All that's needed is SWR's Tap To Go system https://www.southwesternrailway.com/train-tickets/ticket-types/tap2go But with the railcard acting as the smartcard to get the discount, like Zip Oyster cards in London. This would also eliminate forgotten railcards and adding railcards to Oyster cards, as the railcard would function as your ticket.

True where there is an exclusive 1-1 relationship between the railcard holder and the ticket. But that isn't universally the case, e.g. Family & Friends, Disabled railcard which allows a companion to also travel for discounted rate. Prove here and now you're accompanying the disabled person as unlike some other railcards this one has no time restrictions...

Why make things complicated. Inspector collects numbers of all cards being used. As part of end of day processing these are matched to customer touches. If no match then max fare applies.

Unless I have misunderstood that happens already. The problem is how you detect someone travelling on a railcard discounted fare to which they are not entitled. Such as using another family member's bank card. Which is very easy to do e.g. my son has my wife's card set up in Apple Pay on his iPhone as a fallback
 
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alistairlees

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I expect that pa my as you go will exist alongside other (non paper) forms of ticketing. People can choose. Who’d have thought it?
 
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