Possible end to paper tickets in South East?

[JonathanH]

I expect that pa my as you go will exist alongside other (non paper) forms of ticketing. People can choose. Who’d have thought it?

But that retains all the 'confusion' of the current system which people complain about. Less choice = less confusion.

 

[leytongabriel]

I'm just selfishly wondering what will happen to seniors with oyster cards and freedom passes etc. Do they really think this population will be ready to roll with a smartphone app?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm just selfishly wondering what will happen to seniors with oyster cards and freedom passes etc. Do they really think this population will be ready to roll with a smartphone app?

My parents are in their 70s and both have smartphones (and crikey, my Mum is never off Facebook on it, it's like she is a "like" bot on anything posted by me or my sister). People who never really got exposed to tech in their lifetime are rapidly dying off to be replaced by a generation who very much were.

 

[MotCO]

Manchester Metrolink, various bus companies, Edinburgh trams etc. also have contactless systems. They surely make adjustments after travelling without arguing. It is a necessary aspect of having such a system.

The difference being is that southeastern covers a larger area , and therefore the maximum fare would be proportionately larger. You would hardly set a cap at less than the most expensive fare, or no-one would pay the expensive fare, just 'forget' to tap out each time.

 

[87 027]

just 'forget' to tap out each time.

Which can be addressed by blocking the card after a specific number of failures to tap out (this being a condition of PAYG)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which can be addressed by blocking the card after a specific number of failures to tap out (this being a condition of PAYG)

Bearing in mind that most people travelling in the SE are just making day return journeys mostly to London, it is fairly easy to work out what the outward journey was based on what the return journey is, too. If you don't like that assumption, ensure you tap in and out properly.

 

[87 027]

Bearing in mind that most people travelling in the SE are just making day return journeys mostly to London, it is fairly easy to work out what the outward journey was based on what the return journey is, too. If you don't like that assumption, ensure you tap in and out properly.

That is true and I find the TfL autocomplete feature is pretty accurate* even though most of my travel is exclusively on Southeastern rather than TfL-operated services

*I always tap in and out but interesting to check their prediction whilst I'm en route!

 

[Hadders]

My thoughts on what will actually happen:

Contactless will be extended beyond the existing boundary, possible to incorporate the whole of the old Network South East Area
Ideally Oyster is included as well but this will require the long awaited back office functionality and the withdrawal of the 1st generation cards. This really is needed to get around the railcard problem
Paper tickets will not get withdrawn initially, passengers will be able to choose what they use
Most passengers will like the convenience of Contactless and most paper tickets (i.e. everything except Anytime singles and returns) end up getting withdrawn (as happened with TfL)

Watch outs:
Fares become simpler as you just end up with Peak and Off Peak single fares but cheaper super off peak tickets get withdrawn
It becomes a large price increase via the back door, particularly for leisure travel - passengers think tapping their contactless cards is always cheaper but this isn't always the case. I posted some observations about Hertford East and Brookmans Park a couple of years ago. Brookmans Park is particularly interesting given that Grant Shapps is the MP.

Potters Bar and Brookmans Park Fare Observations

Sorry if this should probably go in an existing thread, but I didn't want to hijack any discussions. I looked into how this affects the market for someone who travels from this area to London during weekday off-peak, returns on a different day and is happy to avoid zone 1 if the journey is...

www.railforums.co.uk

March 2019 Oyster Extensions Confirmed

* Losers being those who currently get an off-peak day return that want to travel in the evening peak and those who travel at weekends. Oh, and those who want to break their journey. Although, if these people can continue to use paper tickets to make their journey...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[MikeWh]

My parents are in their 70s and both have smartphones (and crikey, my Mum is never off Facebook on it, it's like she is a "like" bot on anything posted by me or my sister). People who never really got exposed to tech in their lifetime are rapidly dying off to be replaced by a generation who very much were.

Well I'm very happy for your parents. However, just repeating this isn't going to make it true. My mum was a relative late starter with tech, but as she goes through her 80s she's rapidly finding that she can't cope as well as she did. Her fingers aren't as responsive as they were and controlling a mouse is virtually impossible.

 

[JonathanH]

Paper tickets will not get withdrawn initially, passengers will be able to choose what they use
Most passengers will like the convenience of Contactless and most paper tickets (i.e. everything except Anytime singles and returns)

I think a dual system will run the risk of the train operators losing out as passengers choose whichever option is more attractive to them. That runs the risk of the DfT considering that the change is costing them money and not revenue neutral.

It is impossible for this change to be revenue neutral if two structures co-exist. Lets not forget that the 2010 changes in London were immediate.

 

[Hadders]

I think a dual system will run the risk of the train operators losing out as passengers choose whichever option is more attractive to them. That runs the risk of the DfT considering that the change is costing them money and not revenue neutral.

It is impossible for this change to be revenue neutral if two structures co-exist. Lets not forget that the 2010 changes in London were immediate.

I am inclined to agree but look at the posts I linked to above. I don't think this will be revenue neutral at all, I think Anytime passengers will pay similar fares to now with a significant increase in fares for leisure travellers.

 

[Egg Centric]

This is way too simplistic. They need to find a way to link multiple cards to one railcard. They need to be able to do this on an ad-hoc basis because the F&F and Network railcards do not limit who the potential passengers can be aside from the registered card holder(s). And which bank will provide an account to a six month old baby so that the parents can make use of the F&F discount?

Whilst endorsing @Bletchleyite's thing about not making the perfect the enemy of the good, couldn't you do this with having a few special freely available tokens - freely available - which could be enabled or disabled as being 'orbiters' of the main card?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think a dual system will run the risk of the train operators losing out as passengers choose whichever option is more attractive to them. That runs the risk of the DfT considering that the change is costing them money and not revenue neutral.

It is impossible for this change to be revenue neutral if two structures co-exist. Lets not forget that the 2010 changes in London were immediate.

What you're forgetting is that it's perfectly possible to have paper (or e-) tickets at the same fares (or a trivial amount higher than) the contactless fare.

Single-fare pricing is very likely, but is good anyway. I should probably mention that if making a journey from Bletchley to Euston outbound in the morning peak it is (or was last time I checked) slightly cheaper to use singles than a return anyway due to the pattern of the restrictions, and if you have a Network Railcard and/or are returning off-peak it is massively cheaper to do so. I doubt it is the only one in the SE.

It is not impossible for this change to be revenue neutral if two payment methods co-exist. The saving is in ticket offices and TVMs as people cease to use them and many can be removed. Get rid of Ticket on Departure as well (so online sales are e-ticket only) and move a lot of season ticket sales online and you would probably need just one TVM *or* booking office per station, even larger ones.

Well I'm very happy for your parents. However, just repeating this isn't going to make it true. My mum was a relative late starter with tech, but as she goes through her 80s she's rapidly finding that she can't cope as well as she did. Her fingers aren't as responsive as they were and controlling a mouse is virtually impossible.

Is she unable to make a contactless payment?

Not "doesn't trust that new fangled junk", as that is a choice, and we do not have to accommodate unreasonable choices. Is she unable?

 

[Class800]

An end to return fares might lead to great fare increases as on longer routes the difference in fare between a single and a return isn't that great - before taking into account potential issues such as railcards, break of journey, and passing multiple barriers on one journey - which could trigger 'new journey'. E.g. if I travel from Woolwich Arsenal to Kings Cross on contactless and go via the underground, I get charged two journeys, while if I go thameslink, it counts as one journey

 

[akm]

I'm particularly enjoying the amount of "just"ing on this thread, I must say.

Separately:

Ideally Oyster is included as well but this will require the long awaited back office functionality and the withdrawal of the 1st generation cards.

The back office functionality is (recently) already live. At the moment it's only for non-discounted adults, but that situation won't remain for ever.

1st generation cards are a different concern. You can't add them to tha TfL Oyster app, but they get the automated back office refunds the same as 2nd gen.

 

[JonathanH]

What you're forgetting is that it's perfectly possible to have paper (or e-) tickets at the same fares (or a trivial amount higher than) the contactless fare.

No, because the validity of Contactless and e-tickets for a given journey even with the same fare would differ.

For example, Contactless requires the journey to be made in one go. Continued availability of e-tickets might continue to permit stopping short, break of journey etc. Having different conditions for the same fare is a source of confusion.

Equally, Contactless allows a certain degree of doubling back which isn't possible on e-tickets.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, because the validity of Contactless and e-tickets for a given journey even with the same fare would differ.

For example, Contactless requires the journey to be made in one go. Continued availability of e-tickets might continue to permit stopping short, break of journey etc. Having different conditions for the same fare is a source of confusion.

Equally, Contactless allows a certain degree of doubling back which isn't possible on e-tickets.

Why does all that matter? If you have a specialist requirement, choose the appropriate of the two options for it, just like you can now if travelling e.g. on TfL Rail from the Reading direction.

Most people in the SE do not. Most people want to make a return journey to London on a direct train, then bounce about on the Tube and buses for a bit when they get there. That's why outboundary Day Travelcards are so popular.

To make it clear I think e-tickets should and could remain, I just think they should be the same fare as contactless.

 

[JonathanH]

Why does all that matter? If you have a specialist requirement, choose the appropriate of the two options for it.

It represents a potential revenue loss for the operator and perpetuates exactly the sort of complexity most 'normal' people want removed. Contactless is simple - point to point charged at exactly the amount the operator wants to set as the fare for that journey.

 

[Bletchleyite]

An end to return fares might lead to great fare increases as on longer routes the difference in fare between a single and a return isn't that great - before taking into account potential issues such as railcards, break of journey, and passing multiple barriers on one journey - which could trigger 'new journey'. E.g. if I travel from Woolwich Arsenal to Kings Cross on contactless and go via the underground, I get charged two journeys, while if I go thameslink, it counts as one journey

That shouldn't be happening, where are you changing?

It represents a potential revenue loss for the operator and perpetuates exactly the sort of complexity most 'normal' people want removed. Contactless is simple - point to point charged at exactly the amount the operator wants to set as the fare for that journey.

Do you feel that the choice between paper ticket and e-ticket for the same fare on most TOCs at present perpetuates that complexity? Really?

The complexity people don't like is that the fares themselves are highly complicated - singles, day returns, period returns, TOC specific tickets with no significant discount just for an ORCATS raid etc. If you switch to having only Anytime Day Singles, Off Peak Day Singles and (optionally) Super Off Peak Day Singles, with clearly publicised time bands for each, and you being able to use paper*, e-ticket or contactless for each, what's complex about that?

Break of journey and precise routeing are matters that only really concern people on here. Most people want to take a direct train from their intended origin to London, and so they are the main people you are aiming at. The niche situations where double backs aren't allowed but sometimes make sense (e.g. Bletchley-Euston) can be dealt with by tweaking the fares, e.g. by introducing a Milton Keynes Stations group and setting the fare the same for all of them, or just ignore it because basically nobody cares. For example people already travel Euston-Bletchley via MKC occasionally, and as long as they don't try to use Avanti and don't try to pass the MKC gateline, nobody cares. And even if they do try to pass the gateline they just get told to go back, I've seen it.

* I do think paper tickets should be e-tickets, i.e. if you buy a ticket from a TVM or window it should be barcoded and verified by scanning. That however is a different debate.

 

[Class800]

That shouldn't be happening, where are you changing?

London Bridge national rail to Underground seems to make a new journey - it's a higher price going via Underground than Thameslink

 

[Bletchleyite]

London Bridge national rail to Underground seems to make a new journey - it's a higher price going via Underground than Thameslink

Anyone know if that's an OSI (out of station interchange)? If it isn't it is perhaps worth raising the issue with TfL as perhaps it should be.

Or it could just be because the price of a Tube+rail journey is slightly higher than a rail only one for entirely political reasons.

 

[JonathanH]

Do you feel that the choice between paper ticket and e-ticket for the same fare on most TOCs at present perpetuates that complexity? Really?

No, because the terms of use are the same (subject to more data being available to the operator on actual use of an e-ticket).

Anyone know if that's an OSI (out of station interchange)? If it isn't it is perhaps worth raising the issue with TfL as perhaps it should be.

Or it could just be because the price of a Tube+rail journey is slightly higher than a rail only one for entirely political reasons.

The latter.

 

[Watershed]

London Bridge national rail to Underground seems to make a new journey - it's a higher price going via Underground than Thameslink

Unless you it takes you more than 20 minutes from touching out at London Bridge NR to touching in at London Bridge LU, the two journeys should be joined together into one journey using the OSI. So if you've been charged for two separate journeys then something has gone wrong.

There is, however, a difference in the fare if you travel on Thameslink vs if you change onto the Underground at a London Terminal. The mixed-mode fare is, predictably, more expensive.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, because the terms of use are the same (subject to more data being available to the operator on actual use of an e-ticket).

In so far as 99.99999% of people use their ticket, the T&C of contactless and paper would be the same.

For a journey within the South East:
1. Almost everyone uses direct trains for their journey even if a bit slower. Or if crossing London, a direct train to London, the Tube then a direct train out the other side.
2. Hardly anyone breaks their journey.

The 0.0000001% left just aren't worth worrying about, any more than anyone who travels from Watford to Euston (say) worries about it now.

We aren't talking about people doing Penzance to Wick with two overnight stops and via the Sleepers. We are talking about journeys that are mostly short, to London and using direct trains. Only people on here care about the niche stuff.

This Forum loves niches, but they really are not important in the real world. Niche people will know what their best option is, or will seek advice to find it out.

This is like e-tickets all over again, where this Forum solidly concluded that a system I proposed that was basically the same as what was implemented was completely impossible.

 

[Class800]

Unless you it takes you more than 20 minutes from touching out at London Bridge NR to touching in at London Bridge LU, the two journeys should be joined together into one journey using the OSI. So if you've been charged for two separate journeys then something has gone wrong.

There is, however, a difference in the fare if you travel on Thameslink vs if you change onto the Underground at a London Terminal. The mixed-mode fare is, predictably, more expensive.

So maybe what I experienced was the mixed mode fare rather than 2 journeys - the 20 minutes should be OK, although it would be tight in peaks if that dastardly one way system is in place (it comes and goes depending on how busy it is I think)

 

[Doctor Fegg]

My thoughts on what will actually happen: [...snip...]

Watch outs:
Fares become simpler as you just end up with Peak and Off Peak single fares but cheaper super off peak tickets get withdrawn
It becomes a large price increase via the back door, particularly for leisure travel - passengers think tapping their contactless cards is always cheaper but this isn't always the case. I posted some observations about Hertford East and Brookmans Park a couple of years ago. Brookmans Park is particularly interesting given that Grant Shapps is the MP.

The commentary on the recent PAYG-ready Bristol fares reform, by a regular of this parish, might be relevant: https://blog.brfares.com/2021/04/29/bristol-payg-fares-reform/

A few highlights:

The key principle is that the period SOR and SVR fares have been removed, and the single SDS and CDS fares reduced so that they are equal to half of the former SOR and SVR fares.
This is a simple but very clever change as it future-proofs the existing fares model and makes it suitable for using as the basis for a PAYG scheme with daily and weekly settlement.
They will surely have had support from DfT and others to go ahead with this, not least because the SVR fares are regulated and would traditionally have been required to be always offered for sale.

 

[JonathanH]

The commentary on the recent PAYG-ready Bristol fares reform, by a regular of this parish, might be relevant: https://blog.brfares.com/2021/04/29/bristol-payg-fares-reform/

A few highlights:

Given the small differential between singles and day returns, there would need to be some sort of 'day return cap' for this to work in a Contactless sense. The London model works better for PAYG.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given the small differential between singles and day returns, there would need to be some sort of 'day return cap' for this to work in a Contactless sense. The London model works better for PAYG.

Why complicate? Just switch to single-fare pricing for all fulfilment types.

Day return caps are certainly possible, but there really is no need. Return fares cause issues in all sorts of ways. We would be better without them.

 

[JonathanH]

Why complicate? Just switch to single-fare pricing for all fulfilment types.

Day return caps are certainly possible, but there really is no need. Return fares cause issues in all sorts of ways. We would be better without them.

Indeed. This is not how the Bristol set up was done.

To some extent, I think there is a concern on the part of the faresetters that half the day return price on the best value flows is just 'too cheap' - eg Cheltenham to Bristol is now £10.20 off-peak single, £10.60 off-peak day return yet is considered 'PAYG ready'. £5.30 for an off-peak day single risks losing too much revenue.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed. This is not how the Bristol set up was done.

To some extent, I think there is a concern on the part of the faresetters that half the day return price on the best value flows is just 'too cheap' - eg Cheltenham to Bristol is now £10.20 off-peak single, £10.60 off-peak day return yet is considered 'PAYG ready'. £5.30 for an off-peak day single risks losing too much revenue.

Does it, though? The vast majority of people in the SE are making day return journeys, so the effect will be quite small.