Pre-black box trips involving speeding trains

[boing_uk]

Not sure about record breaking, but back in 2002 coming back from Sheffield, was on a 158 who’s driver was either on their last day in the job or was on a promise that night.

Shot round the curve in to Rotherham at such a speed cups were sliding off tables. Arrived in Doncaster quite a few minutes early.

Full speed ahead to Grimsby, shot through Hatfield without stopping (scheduled to), must’ve been at least 10 above line speed all the way to Scunny.

Final misdemeanour was flying through the 40mph TSR approaching Great Coates over the jointed track again at what I worked out was 60mph. Some of those joints were VERY rough.

I did that journey multiple times a week, so could tell what was normal and what was... not quite so.

In all quite a thrilling ride. And presumably before black boxes were fitted to the fleet

 

[Bletchleyite]

Years ago I was on a 142 on the back of a 158 that definitely wasn't sticking to 75.

I suspect pre-black box there were loads of such incidents, now rather less so because it's (rightly) treated very seriously.

 

[hexagon789]

Not sure about record breaking, but back in 2002 coming back from Sheffield, was on a 158 who’s driver was either on their last day in the job or was on a promise that night.

Shot round the curve in to Rotherham at such a speed cups were sliding off tables. Arrived in Doncaster quite a few minutes early.

Full speed ahead to Grimsby, shot through Hatfield without stopping (scheduled to), must’ve been at least 10 above line speed all the way to Scunny.

Final misdemeanour was flying through the 40mph TSR approaching Great Coates over the jointed track again at what I worked out was 60mph. Some of those joints were VERY rough.

I did that journey multiple times a week, so could tell what was normal and what was... not quite so.

In all quite a thrilling ride. And presumably before black boxes were fitted to the fleet

At least 158s have good suspension!

Years ago I was on a 142 on the back of a 158 that definitely wasn't sticking to 75.

I suspect pre-black box there were loads of such incidents, now rather less so because it's (rightly) treated very seriously.

There are a few stories of Pacers being taken up to 90 and over by 158s!

Of course theoretically a Pacer (excepting those with the original SCG transmission which might not) should manage about 85mph on its own power as that's what Sprinters will balance out to roughly.

 

[King Lazy]

Can confirm. As a guard I’ve been on a few 142s working by themselves that have cruised with the rear cab needle on 85 for some distance.

 

[Welly]

Back in the 1980s some 4-VEPs and 4-CIGs were being retrofitted with speedometers with full scale deflection of 140mph rather than the 100mph ones they had originally. Which meant the drivers mis-reading the new speedos and the units going round certain bends faster than they should be! My friend swears that he felt the wheels lifting from one rail!

 

[voyagerdude220]

Can confirm. As a guard I’ve been on a few 142s working by themselves that have cruised with the rear cab needle on 85 for some distance.

I've heard rumours that there were a few instances of drivers forgetting about 142s or 153s being attached to the rear of 158s early this year/late last year and they made it up to 90mph between Bolton and Salford Crescent.

 

[Whistler40145]

Travelling back from Sheffield to Manchester Piccadilly late at night, train sat for ages at Sheffield, guard announces we’ve no driver, up arrives driver throwing his weight around, turns out he was a strong willed Union Man, arguing with the guard about station stops, this service was a 158 ex-Cleethorpes and was booked to stop at several Hope Valley stations, driver informed the guard. I ain’t hanging around, sure to his word, we shot off like Rocket Ship on speed, first stop Stockport and Manchester Piccadilly

On arrival at Manchester Piccadilly I think the driver was escorted away for the statutory grilling by Management.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've heard rumours that there were a few instances of drivers forgetting about 142s or 153s being attached to the rear of 158s early this year/late last year and they made it up to 90mph between Bolton and Salford Crescent.

I'm racking my brains to remember where it happened to me, it was ages ago but I do remember the rather bouncy ride! I believe it was during some seriously out of course running - might well have been the North Wales Coast, as it wasn't at all unusual in pre-175 FNW days for the Holyhead to be 158 and the Llandudno-Manchester 142 (yes, really), and so if things had really ended up in a mess having the two coupled to get them to the right end would not be out of the question.

 

[181]

I'm not sure whether this would be prevented by a black box, but I remember in the early 2000s being on the (late-running) 37-hauled sleeper on the West Highland line when the driver appeared to be making up time by driving a bit like you might drive a car -- rather than proceeding steadily at the line speed, whenever he got a couple of hundred yards or so of straight track he would accelerate before braking for the next curve. No doubt this was bad for fuel economy and resulted in somewhat increased wear and tear, but provided he reached the curve at the right speed it wouldn't have put serious strain on the track there* and wouldn't have been at all dangerous.

*My guess, albeit little more than a guess, is that on lines like the West Highland in the Sprinter era, the line speed for locomotives is determined by the desire to reduce wear and tear on the track and is well below the level at which derailment risk would be a concern.

 

[hexagon789]

My guess, albeit little more than a guess, is that on lines like the West Highland in the Sprinter era, the line speed for locomotives is determined by the desire to reduce wear and tear on the track and is well below the level at which derailment risk would be a concern.

Linespeed was only 40mph until the late-1970s when it was increased to 50mph.

Sprinter differentials came in with the 156s, the highest speeds are thus 70mph for 156s (three modest sections) and 50 for locos (heavy locos such as 67s are severely limited over many bridges to as low as 10mph in some places iirc, 37s aren't so affected but the extra power of the 67s meant they could keep time on the Sleeper services.

The fastest speed I'm aware of on the WHL is actually post black-box, a 77mph in one of the 70 sections with a Class 156 in 2006.

 

[Merle Haggard]

In the 1960s I travelled on a railtour from Northampton that was run primarily to be the last passenger train over the former GN Leen Valley extension before closure but also over the MSW via Worsborough bank behind 'Tommy'.
It was a Derby type 2 to Leicester, where an ex-works 8F, 48476, took over. Watching the loco. change, I noticed an animated conversation between some of the participants and the loco crew. Returning to my seat, gossip passed down the train that '80 with an 8' was being attempted - presumably inspired by 9Fs on passenger work allegedly sometimes reaching 90 m.p.h., '90 with a 9'.
We certainly set off rapidly, and timers were calling out speeds. Unfortunately, 80 was never quite managed, the maximum speed fluctuating around 76 - 78. By the considerable fore and aft surging at times on the train (8Fs were only balanced for revolving and not reciprocating masses I think) it must have been lively on the footplate. I also wonder whether anyone wondered a little later why 48476, not long out of works, knocked a lot...
Remarkably, over 50 years later, a log of the run appeared in Railway Magazine to confirm my story.
And, by contrast, 'Tommy' ascended Worsboro' bank at walking pace.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

At least 158s have good suspension!


There are a few stories of Pacers being taken up to 90 and over by 158s!

Of course theoretically a Pacer (excepting those with the original SCG transmission which might not) should manage about 85mph on its own power as that's what Sprinters will balance out to roughly.

I bet the engine revs on the Pacer were high!

 

[hexagon789]

I bet the engine revs on the Pacer were high!

I'd guess ~2,400rpm

 

[Whistler40145]

Travelling on a Summer Saturday in 1993 Inverness to Glasgow Queen Street, was booked for a pair of 37/0s (37188+37051), we were treated to some fast running, especially down Slochd and arrived in Aviemore about 30 minutes early, quite surprised it stayed on the rails

 

[delt1c]

I remember back in late 90's on WCML and North of Carlisle the train was obviously well above the line speed as on curves ( in MkIII) you were thrown from your seat, There is someone on here who can confirm this.

 

[Ash Bridge]

I remember back in late 90's on WCML and North of Carlisle the train was obviously well above the line speed as on curves ( in MkIII) you were thrown from your seat, There is someone on here who can confirm this.

Never will forget that hair raising experience!

 

[delt1c]

Never will forget that hair raising experience!

Equalled by the 170 from Ipswich which performed the emergency stop at Stratford

 

[peteb]

Class 40 on a SO(?) York to Birmingham New St service, dep York c.1745. Persuaded my family to take this train home as it had "proper" SK mk1 carriages rather than the slightly earlier and faster train which was 47 hauled mk2 opens. Would have been around 1978. Timed mileposts near Tamworth: 100mph exceeded for some miles down the gradients towards Water Orton.

 

[peteb]

c.1978 saw a St Pancras to Leicester service passing Burton Latimer station site, early evening, Peak Class 45 hauling 7 or 8 mk1s going about 90mph. Nothing exceptional in that except that tagged on the rear was a single DMS from the BedPan DMU sets! I suppose it was locked o.o.u. but a strange sight and one which prompted me to write to Railway Magazine with this info. for their traffic and traction but they never published it!

 

[hexagon789]

Class 40 on a SO(?) York to Birmingham New St service, dep York c.1745. Persuaded my family to take this train home as it had "proper" SK mk1 carriages rather than the slightly earlier and faster train which was 47 hauled mk2 opens. Would have been around 1978. Timed mileposts near Tamworth: 100mph exceeded for some miles down the gradients towards Water Orton.

I'm not doubting your claim, but I've seen several mentions of it being generally reckoned that a 40 would balance to about 88mph on level tangent track their nominal 90 only being achieveable downhill.

How correct that is I don't know, but I've seen this mentioned in a few places and in some timing logs.

c.1978 saw a St Pancras to Leicester service passing Burton Latimer station site, early evening, Peak Class 45 hauling 7 or 8 mk1s going about 90mph. Nothing exceptional in that except that tagged on the rear was a single DMS from the BedPan DMU sets! I suppose it was locked o.o.u. but a strange sight and one which prompted me to write to Railway Magazine with this info. for their traffic and traction but they never published it!

Probably not too bad given the 127s had hydraulic transmission and so wouldn't be able to overspeed the gearbox as with the Blue Square units.

 

[SteveM70]

Two memories....

Firstly, the late running last train of the night from somewhere Porthmadog way back to Tywyn in around 1978. It was a DMU, I think a 101 but I’m not certain. Not sure whether it was booked for the shacks, but we absolutely hurtled towards Tywyn, really rocking and rolling.

Secondly a can ride in 87015 from Coventry to Birmingham International around 1984/5. Driver was keen to show what was possible and had the needle at around 115 by the time we got to Hampton in Arden at which point sadly he slammed the anchors on

 

[hexagon789]

Two memories....

Firstly, the late running last train of the night from somewhere Porthmadog way back to Tywyn in around 1978. It was a DMU, I think a 101 but I’m not certain. Not sure whether it was booked for the shacks, but we absolutely hurtled towards Tywyn, really rocking and rolling.

Secondly a can ride in 87015 from Coventry to Birmingham International around 1984/5. Driver was keen to show what was possible and had the needle at around 115 by the time we got to Hampton in Arden at which point sadly he slammed the anchors on

I forget what the theoretical maximum of an 87 is but it's well over 125mph based on traction motor speed and gearing. Must dig out a book and work it out again, I think it comes to about 133mph though you'd get more on full diameter wheels and obviously it would depend on the load being pulled.

They were designed to be able to sustain 100mph on three motors with a load of 455 tonnes though, so that should give some indication of their potential.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Back in the class 27 era the evening train from Mallaig to Fort William used to connect out of the ferry from Skye which often ran late, but connect it must as the ferry was conveying passengers on round trips by train/coach/ferry which were sold by BR. No performance regime back then, and worth delaying the handful of local passengers to get often fifty plus 'tour' and other ferry passengers back to base by train.

The regular running time from Mallaig to Fort William was around 1hr 40, which may at first glance sound excessive for just over 40 miles but for the first approx. 27 miles line speed was 30, then 40 for the remaining 15 or so miles - even without allowing for stops, acceleration and braking 27 miles at 30 takes 54 minutes and then add 24 minutes for 15 miles at 40.

The lateness of the ferry could often result in the train departing well over 30 minutes late and in these circumstances some very fast runs were achieved, typically around 65 to 70 minutes which required an average end to end speed in the mid to high 30s including stops - most of which were very brief - but the opening and closing of the level crossing gates at Morar by traincrew did consume a few minutes. So in terms of exceeding line speed I would guess that favourable stretches like Keppoch Moss and along the side of Locheil must have been taken at around 50 vice 30 and 60 vice 40 respectively.

 

[peteb]

I'm not doubting your claim, but I've seen several mentions of it being generally reckoned that a 40 would balance to about 88mph on level tangent track their nominal 90 only being achieveable downhill.

How correct that is I don't know, but I've seen this mentioned in a few places and in some timing logs.


Probably not too bad given the 127s had hydraulic transmission and so wouldn't be able to overspeed the gearbox as with the Blue Square units.

Definitely did the "ton" as was recorded on stopwatch by my friend too, 9 secs for a quarter mile and 18 secs for 1/2 mile, for quite some way through Tamworth and Wilnecote: if only we'd had video then.

I lost my trip logs a few years back which had timings of virtually every intercity journey I made between 1976 and 1990 and again 2002 to 2011, or I would tell you the loco. Mind you if I can find a 1978 diary maybe someone has that info.....?

 

[Kilopylae]

I'm fairly sure I was on a 143 in 2018 that was above the line speed on the Barnstaple line - the guard was sitting down and holding on to the seat and it was bouncing around to the point that it felt dangerous (though Pacers aren't known for their suspension anyway are they). Would have tried to time it but it was after dark and I was too busy trying to reassure my girlfriend that the train wasn't about to crash

 

[hexagon789]

I'm fairly sure I was on a 143 in 2018 that was above the line speed on the Barnstaple line - the guard was sitting down and holding on to the seat and it was bouncing around to the point that it felt dangerous (though Pacers aren't known for their suspension anyway are they). Would have tried to time it but it was after dark and I was too busy trying to reassure my girlfriend that the train wasn't about to crash

I'd be surprised at more than a slight overspeed. You do know that permitted linespeed is up to 70 on the Tarka line?

 

[Ash Bridge]

I'd be surprised at more than a slight overspeed. You do know that permitted linespeed is up to 70 on the Tarka line?

Not certain if it was 70 at the time but I was fortunate enough to be offered a cab ride from Barnstaple to Exeter St D back in the summer of 1990 which I willingly accepted. This was an early Saturday evening service formed of a 3 car class 101 that skipped a handful of the quieter stations on-route and on several occasions the speedometer indicated 70 mph, the ride quality though was quite respectable unlike that of the 142/143.

 

[Kilopylae]

I'd be surprised at more than a slight overspeed. You do know that permitted linespeed is up to 70 on the Tarka line?

I'm quite experienced with the Tarka line; I used it twice a week for much of 2018 and 2019. So I know when it feels different to normal! Could have been the wind or the tracks I suppose but it definitely wasn't the usual ride.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

There were tales on uk.railway years ago of 158s being taken up to 110mph in their very early days - around Ely was one place mentioned.

 

[hexagon789]

I'm quite experienced with the Tarka line; I used it twice a week for much of 2018 and 2019. So I know when it feels different to normal! Could have been the wind or the tracks I suppose but it definitely wasn't the usual ride.

I don't doubt that but in this day and age deliberate significant overspeeding is very easily found out about today and asides from that is very rare.

Perhaps it was that particular Pacer? Part of the suspension getting to the end of its life? I know that the original dampers on B4 bogies could give a very lively ride when they got close to the end of their life, the later friction dampers were much better in that respect.