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Price War between York and Newcastle involving VTEC/TPE/XC

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gimmea50anyday

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It seems as tho a prkce war has started between the 3 main ECML north operators and is just becoming silly. The trouble is this is not the first time this has happened and led to not only the general public being ripped off, but also led to staff assaults, arrests and public disorder.

XC about 3 years ago ontroduxed their own anytime valid XC only tickets. These were made available on the ticket machines but it wasnt made clear enough these tickets had restrictions - indeed the anytime name added to the confusion. These being cheaper tham the CDR people bought them only to find they were having to buy new tickets when travelling on EC or TPE services. Eventually amid growing pressure from passenger focus groups and TOC management these tickets were withdrawn.

December and TPE introduce a SVR YRK-NCL at £25 route TPE only. In retaliation VTEC introduce a cheaper CDR for £20 VTEC only. So TPE drop the TPE SVR to £18.50.

Then VTEC only and TPE only tickets were inyroduced on NTR flows to YRK, DHM and NCL. Not to be deterred by this XC then introduce their own tickets so now at YRK, DAR, DHM and NCL you can now buy SVR and CDR tickets for all 3 operators.

Great news for prices and cheaper fares. Bad news for service.

You see, if you use a station ticket machine and ask for a ticket from A to B the new machines highlight the train times and a big yellow box highlights the cheapest fare. But in very small writing it states restricted validity, click here for details. Only when you indeed click here - and the "button" and associated text is no bigger than a 10p does it state operator only. If the layperson doesnt click here and proceeds straight to the pay screen nothing tells the buyer about the restrictions until they are on board the train and being made to buy a new ticket.

This is unfair to both the punter and the traincrew dealing with the fallout.

You would have thought the industry would have learnt from the last time round but instead all operators have apparently gone ORCATS mad as they now locket not onlt the operator specific ticket, but also the portion of the any permitted ticket sold on board in lieu.

What are your thoughts on this?
 
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DarloRich

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Cheaper still would be better - fares hsve seemed high on this section of route for some time

Plus isn't this what the market is all about?
 

Suraggu

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It seems as tho a prkce war has started between the 3 main ECML north operators and is just becoming silly. The trouble is this is not the first time this has happened and led to not only the general public being ripped off, but also led to staff assaults, arrests and public disorder.

XC about 3 years ago ontroduxed their own anytime valid XC only tickets. These were made available on the ticket machines but it wasnt made clear enough these tickets had restrictions - indeed the anytime name added to the confusion. These being cheaper tham the CDR people bought them only to find they were having to buy new tickets when travelling on EC or TPE services. Eventually amid growing pressure from passenger focus groups and TOC management these tickets were withdrawn.

December and TPE introduce a SVR YRK-NCL at £25 route TPE only. In retaliation VTEC introduce a cheaper CDR for £20 VTEC only. So TPE drop the TPE SVR to £18.50.

Then VTEC only and TPE only tickets were inyroduced on NTR flows to YRK, DHM and NCL. Not to be deterred by this XC then introduce their own tickets so now at YRK, DAR, DHM and NCL you can now buy SVR and CDR tickets for all 3 operators.

Great news for prices and cheaper fares. Bad news for service.

You see, if you use a station ticket machine and ask for a ticket from A to B the new machines highlight the train times and a big yellow box highlights the cheapest fare. But in very small writing it states restricted validity, click here for details. Only when you indeed click here - and the "button" and associated text is no bigger than a 10p does it state operator only. If the layperson doesnt click here and proceeds straight to the pay screen nothing tells the buyer about the restrictions until they are on board the train and being made to buy a new ticket.

This is unfair to both the punter and the traincrew dealing with the fallout.

You would have thought the industry would have learnt from the last time round but instead all operators have apparently gone ORCATS mad as they now locket not onlt the operator specific ticket, but also the portion of the any permitted ticket sold on board in lieu.

What are your thoughts on this?

This is whats called competition. This is actually what the Government want to see but customers should also be aware of what they are purchasing.
 

Merseysider

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I think it's brilliant that the different companies are competing on price - and thus indirectly - competing against the car.

There does however need to be a procedure for excessing TOC-Only tickets to Any Permitted, for these tickets to be truly consumer-friendly. Perhaps with a surcharge if done onboard, to dissuade chancers (such as LM on Virgin).
 

LNW-GW Joint

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It will get worse (better?) when TPE extend from Newcastle to Edinburgh.
Can you not excess walk-on tickets like SVR/CDR to the higher level by paying the (small) difference?
I thought it was only Advance fares that forced you to buy another ticket?
 

gimmea50anyday

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No we cant when its operator specific tickets either.

I wouldnt mind myaelf the competition aspects personally. My problem lies with the tickets and the machines selling them not being clear enough what the product is that is being sold.
 

ainsworth74

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There does however need to be a procedure for excessing TOC-Only tickets to Any Permitted, for these tickets to be truly consumer-friendly. Perhaps with a surcharge if done onboard, to dissuade chancers (such as LM on Virgin).

This! It's great that at last we're getting some competition on this route where prices have been very high for a long period of time and it's certainly ripe for competition with everyone offering at least an hourly service.

However, when buying from machines it needs to made be made absolutely clear that the tickets have a TOC Only restriction (I'd suggest that the passenger has to actively push a button on a pop up warning that the ticket is only valid on TOC X's services) and when it does go wrong it can be rectified by paying an excess not buying a new ticket (which is both more passenger friendly and should help keep things from escalating for train crew).
 

g22

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Could someone enlighten me please? I thought the Any Permitted Flow owner (VTEC) was not allowed to introduce TOC only fares?
 

najaB

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Could someone enlighten me please? I thought the Any Permitted Flow owner (VTEC) was not allowed to introduce TOC only fares?
Why not? I can't see any harm as long as there's still an 'Any Permitted' ticket available and it's not ridiculously priced.
 

g22

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Why not? I can't see any harm as long as there's still an 'Any Permitted' ticket available and it's not ridiculously priced.

What I meant was I thought that it was a rule that they couldn't introduce a TOC only fare if they were the flow owner? I did not say I was against it happening.
 

najaB

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What I meant was I thought that it was a rule that they couldn't introduce a TOC only fare if they were the flow owner? I did not say I was against it happening.
Oh, okay. Well if there is such a rule the question still stands. :)
 

Joe Paxton

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I've the same question as g22 above - how can VTEC as the lead operator which prices the flow also introduce a TOC-only ticket?

I think the logic of them not (normally) being allowed to do so is that if they did, they could ramp up the 'Any Permitted' price to encourage passengers to buy a TOC-only tickets instead - and many would buy a ticket with the lead operator, given they normally run the most trains on that route.

The revenue from TOC-only tickets doesn't have to be shared with other operators via the RSP / ORCATS, so operators are keen on them, and so the whole concept of interavailable ticketing starts to fall apart.
 

Merseysider

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VTEC's fare will be a promotional, limited time, ticket unless they've applied for special permission from the Rail Delivery Group. TPE / XC Only fares can be permanent.
 

g22

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Can the lead operator keep introducing a similar temporary fare over and over again?
 

yorkie

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It seems as tho a prkce war has started between the 3 main ECML north operators and is just becoming silly. The trouble is this is not the first time this has happened and led to not only the general public being ripped off, but also led to staff assaults, arrests and public disorder.
The public were ripped off before the price war by having to pay £extortionate amounts.
XC about 3 years ago ontroduxed their own anytime valid XC only tickets. These were made available on the ticket machines but it wasnt made clear enough these tickets had restrictions - indeed the anytime name added to the confusion. These being cheaper tham the CDR people bought them only to find they were having to buy new tickets when travelling on EC or TPE services. Eventually amid growing pressure from passenger focus groups and TOC management these tickets were withdrawn.
I am very disappointed if Passenger Focus campaigned for the withdrawal of cheaper fares.

Instead, they should campaign for cheaper fares to be 'excess-able'.
December and TPE introduce a SVR YRK-NCL at £25 route TPE only. In retaliation VTEC introduce a cheaper CDR for £20 VTEC only. So TPE drop the TPE SVR to £18.50.

Then VTEC only and TPE only tickets were inyroduced on NTR flows to YRK, DHM and NCL. Not to be deterred by this XC then introduce their own tickets so now at YRK, DAR, DHM and NCL you can now buy SVR and CDR tickets for all 3 operators.
I wasn't aware of this, but now I am, I'll probably make more trips to Newcastle.
Great news for prices and cheaper fares. Bad news for service.

You see, if you use a station ticket machine and ask for a ticket from A to B the new machines highlight the train times and a big yellow box highlights the cheapest fare. But in very small writing it states restricted validity, click here for details. Only when you indeed click here - and the "button" and associated text is no bigger than a 10p does it state operator only. If the layperson doesnt click here and proceeds straight to the pay screen nothing tells the buyer about the restrictions until they are on board the train and being made to buy a new ticket.

This is unfair to both the punter and the traincrew dealing with the fallout.
I agree that it is unacceptable passengers should be told to buy a new ticket. The rules need to change; only the excess should be charged.
You would have thought the industry would have learnt from the last time round but instead all operators have apparently gone ORCATS mad as they now locket not onlt the operator specific ticket, but also the portion of the any permitted ticket sold on board in lieu.

What are your thoughts on this?
My thoughts are that the fares are great but the rule on excesses is not.

The solution is not to withdraw some cheaper fares but to change the excess fares rule.

The same issue has occurred with flows like Milton Keynes to London (to name just one out of many) for decades!

Passenger Focus also need to be replaced by a body that actually achieves good outcomes for passengers.
 

najaB

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I think the rule should be that the lead operator can introduce TOC-only fares on a permanent basis, but they can't be more than 15% (open to suggestions) cheaper than the any-permitted fare.
 

Starmill

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I think the rule should be that the lead operator can introduce TOC-only fares on a permanent basis, but they can't be more than 15% (open to suggestions) cheaper than the any-permitted fare.

If passengers could excess the tickets, it wouldn't matter if the lead operator introduced one that was 10p cheaper. They would be incentivised to offer a fare that is actually good value.

On-rail competition is a foolish waste of everyone's time, as I have explained from the macro point of view many times. The economies of scale from rail are such that you cannot have multiple companies offering the same service efficiently and competing for exactly the same passengers. Competitive tendering and on-rail competition should be mutually exclusive, the one undermines the other.

The optimum solution to perceived overcharging is more effective regulation. Regulation should be based around ensuring that in as many cases as possible, for a lone traveller with a modern car, the train fare will be competitive. It will not be possible in all cases and it will not happen overnight, but this is a far, far more useful aim than a small handful of routes ending up with very low yields (therefore lower revenue, therefore less cash available to invest in a flagship route) due to competition, and the vast majority of passengers continuing to be overcharged because they don't have the luxury of competition.

However, if we are stuck with this system then the current rules will do, as long as tickets can be excessed or ammended.

To comment directly on this case, I am shocked that TransPennine changed their temporary offer of £25 'Off-Peak Return' (not a Day Return) down to £18.50.

East Coast frequently have these odd 'Off-Peak Day Return' offers on remarkably busy sections of their route £20 down from £35.90? If you can afford to have a promotion that good, and there is space in the train to offer it, then it's clear the £35.90 is way, way overpriced.

Finally I cannot see any CrossCountry only tickets other than Advance tickets.

I can see, for York to Newcastle:

Single
Off-Peak Day Single Virgin Trains East Coast Only £19
Off-Peak Day Single Any Permitted £36.40
Anytime Day Single Any Permitted £42.50

First Anytime Day Single Virgin Trains East Coast Only £52
First Anytime Day Single Any Permitted £60.50

Return
Off-Peak Return TransPennine Express Only £18.50
Off-Peak Day Return Virgin Trains East Coast Only £20
Off-Peak Return Virgin Trains East Coast Only £24
Off-Peak Day Return Any Permitted £39.50
Off-Peak Return Any Permitted £42.60
Anytime Short Return Any Permitted £62

First Anytime Return TransPennine Express Only £64.70
First Anytime Short Return Virgin Trains East Coast Only £104
First Anytime Short Return Any Permitted £121

I've had a quick look in the other direction and can't see anything else. I can't see any CrossCountry only. I haven't checked every intermediate station as that would take too long. I'd love it if someone could tell me how much these XC only tickets cost.
 
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soil

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If passengers could excess the tickets, it wouldn't matter if the lead operator introduced one that was 10p cheaper. They would be incentivised to offer a fare that is actually good value.

On-rail competition is a foolish waste of everyone's time, as I have explained from the macro point of view many times. The economies of scale from rail are such that you cannot have multiple companies offering the same service efficiently and competing for exactly the same passengers. Competitive tendering and on-rail competition should be mutually exclusive, the one undermines the other.

The optimum solution to perceived overcharging is more effective regulation. Regulation should be based around ensuring that in as many cases as possible, for a lone traveller with a modern car, the train fare will be competitive. It will not be possible in all cases and it will not happen overnight, but this is a far, far more useful aim than a small handful of routes ending up with very low yields (therefore lower revenue, therefore less cash available to invest in a flagship route) due to competition, and the vast majority of passengers continuing to be overcharged because they don't have the luxury of competition.

However, if we are stuck with this system then the current rules will do, as long as tickets can be excessed or ammended.

To comment directly on this case, I am shocked that TransPennine changed their temporary offer of £25 'Off-Peak Return' (not a Day Return) down to £18.50.

East Coast frequently have these odd 'Off-Peak Day Return' offers on remarkably busy sections of their route £20 down from £35.90? If you can afford to have a promotion that good, and there is space in the train to offer it, then it's clear the £35.90 is way, way overpriced.

Finally I cannot see any CrossCountry only tickets other than Advance tickets.

I can see, for York to Newcastle:

Single
Off-Peak Day Single Virgin Trains East Coast Only £19
Off-Peak Day Single Any Permitted £36.40
Anytime Day Single Any Permitted £42.50

First Anytime Day Single Virgin Trains East Coast Only £52
First Anytime Day Single Any Permitted £60.50

Return
Off-Peak Return TransPennine Express Only £18.50
Off-Peak Day Return Virgin Trains East Coast Only £20
Off-Peak Return Virgin Trains East Coast Only £24
Off-Peak Day Return Any Permitted £39.50
Off-Peak Return Any Permitted £42.60
Anytime Short Return Any Permitted £62

First Anytime Return TransPennine Express Only £64.70
First Anytime Short Return Virgin Trains East Coast Only £104
First Anytime Short Return Any Permitted £121

I've had a quick look in the other direction and can't see anything else. I can't see any CrossCountry only. I haven't checked every intermediate station as that would take too long. I'd love it if someone could tell me how much these XC only tickets cost.

It's £18 for a YRK-NCL XC Only SVR.

Just check the XC website!

There is also £17.50 SVS XC Only and £19 CDS VTEC
 

Starmill

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It's £18 for a YRK-NCL XC Only SVR.

Just check the XC website!

There is also £17.50 SVS XC Only and £19 CDS VTEC

I have included the VTEC only CDS.

And the plot thickens. If you ask a WebTis website it doesn't know those fares exist. I was using Chiltern.

Trainline does know about this fare, but amusingly says next to it 'Any off-peak train'. Interesting that in this instance you really would get a cheaper ticket by buying from trainline than from Chiltern.

Screenshot attached. Perhaps some of the people with XC Only tickets on gimmea50anyday's trains have seen this on the trainline. It's at the top, colored in bright yellow and has been automatically selected, with a big green button that says 'continue' on it to the side. No wonder people just click through. On the next screen all it does is try to sell you travel insurance, then ask if you would like PlusBus, and then if you want a seat reservation. That's it. Nowehere does it even say anything about CrossCountry or what that is.

Capture.PNG
 
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yorksrob

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It's good that they're finally offering better value fares other than just Advanced Purchase, where passengers have a choice of when they can travel.

GC started off in this vein, but the effect has been diluted by increasing prices since they started to concentrate on AP instead.
 

najaB

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Nowehere does it even say anything about CrossCountry or what that is.

View attachment 31657
I think the website must've been having a glitch when you looked at it. When I look for the ticket I see this (see attachment) just below where your image is cropped (my highlighting).
 

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gimmea50anyday

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See enclosed screenshots of the ticket machine at Newcastle yesterday. Fares are from Newcastle to Darlington

Page 1 of the fares options shows the relevant VTEC, TPE and XC only CDRs. Note how XCs fare is just 10p cheaper than TPE. The next page then gives you the anytime day return valid all trains after clicking on the more fares arrow. Now if you select a ticket option and proceed to the pay screen it doesnt tell you anything about the ticket. Look back to page one. You clearly see the cheapest ticket in yellow, but look how small in comparison the restricted validity button is at the top. Not exactly clear is it. The next image is the restriction details but this only comes up if you press the info button. Otherwise that popup does not appear, and nowhere in the purchase proceedure does the machine tell you the ticket is operator specific.

To us in the know it migjt be understandable, but from the layperson, its far from clear.
 

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Joe Paxton

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See enclosed screenshots of the ticket machine at Newcastle yesterday. Fares are from Newcastle to Darlington

Page 1 of the fares options shows the relevant VTEC, TPE and XC only CDRs. Note how XCs fare is just 10p cheaper than TPE. The next page then gives you the anytime day return valid all trains after clicking on the more fares arrow. Now if you select a ticket option and proceed to the pay screen it doesnt tell you anything about the ticket. Look back to page one. You clearly see the cheapest ticket in yellow, but look how small in comparison the restricted validity button is at the top. Not exactly clear is it. The next image is the restriction details but this only comes up if you press the info button. Otherwise that popup does not appear, and nowhere in the purchase proceedure does the machine tell you the ticket is operator specific.

To us in the know it migjt be understandable, but from the layperson, its far from clear.


Thanks for investigating and for the photos. I haven't used one of these new VTEC TVMs yet. Some were suggesting that this kind of display (actually showing specific train services) could be the ideal user interface for a ticket machine... well, not in this situation, at least not with that user interface implementation.

It doesn't look remotely clear... at least not on the first glance. Knowing as I do what I'm looking for - because I've read this thread and your post - I can decipher the display and the logic behind it. But to do so you really need to know that there are multiple TOC-only tickets available, and the interface does a completely hopeless job of flagging this up.

I don't think I can blame anyone who gets in a muddle about tickets on this route having tried to buy one from one of those TVMs. I bet a selection of even fairly savvy rail travellers would get confused by this.
 

snail

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The solution is not to withdraw some cheaper fares but to change the excess fares rule.
Absolutely. There are similar shenanigans on the West Coast. Preston to Lancaster is £7.50 return off-peak Any Permitted - set by Northern. VT now charge £6.80 and TPE £5.90. VT have 2 trains an hour, TPE one. So miss the TPE train and it's a long wait for the next, I should be able to excess the TPE to Any Permitted for £1.60 if I decide I don't want to wait or get on the VT train in error.
 
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gimmea50anyday

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Where on the screen do you actually touch to select the ticket type that you want?

Basically anywhere within the red (or yellow) box that highlights the price and the time.

This is the thing tho, just as with most online retailers, it gives you a time and a price, it doesnt actually tell you what it is you are getting, unless you specifically press the red "restrictions" tab at the top of the highlighted box.

Annoyingly aswell considering the tickets are open timed returns - in the sense you can travel back at any time but within the relevant conditions - the system insists on you keying in a return time, adding to the confusion
 

gimmea50anyday

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Maybe the first screen should say "destination" then second screen "operator" with a box for each individual operator plus a further box which says "any" then the relevant fares shoukd be within each operator button on a third screen then when the relevant ticket is selected and before you can proceed a message "this ticket can only be used on TOC only" along with two buttons stating " I understand" or "show me all operator tickets instead"
 

furlong

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By the looks of things, someone should ask the ORR to investigate the companies using those ticket machines for a potential breach of the consumer regulations. Meanwhile the TOC(s) concerned ought to stick prominent notices on the machines explaining the secret restrictions (assuming they aren't going to just turn the machines off) until the interface can be corrected to show them prominently.

Perhaps it might be held that the TOC is trying to impose additional material contractual restrictions only after the contract has been formed (by printing them on the ticket but not revealing them earlier) and the passenger might have an arguable case that, as such, they do not form part of the contract and are unenforceable (and if asked to pay more en route, be able to reclaim that, plus costs, from the vendor). The argument looks stronger in respect of the return service if the interface (from the pictures posted here) is based on selecting an outward service but not then showing to which return trains the selected ticket is restricted.
 

najaB

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Basically anywhere within the red (or yellow) box that highlights the price and the time.
A simple interface change that could make it clearer what you're buying would be to completely block out the times of the trains that the ticket isn't valid for in a different colour, and pop up a message that explains why if you try to select them.

Of course, as you said above, it would make more sense if they just popped up a warning message when you select a TOC-only fare.
 
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