Printing of restriction codes on the face of tickets

[87 027]

This is related to the discussions about whether ticket restrictions attaching to particular ticket types/journeys are made sufficiently clear to the average passenger who may not be aware how bafflingly complex the ticketing system is.

Some years ago I recall credit-card size tickets used to print the restriction code itself (e.g. 9N) as well as the somewhat bland and uninformative "SEE RESTRICTIONS". It was then relatively straightforward for a member of the travelling public to look this up in a publication such as the OAG Guide.

Would it be worth restoring this level of information to the ticket, and providing a lookup to the codes from the journey planner on the NR website, or would it be too difficult (or confusing) for this information to be made available to the public in this way?

 

[ess]

This is related to the discussions about whether ticket restrictions attaching to particular ticket types/journeys are made sufficiently clear to the average passenger who may not be aware how baffling complex the ticketing system is.

Some years ago I recall credit-card size tickets used to print the restriction code itself (e.g. 9N) as well as the somewhat bland and uninformative "SEE RESTRICTIONS". It was then relatively straightforward for a member of the travelling public to look this up in a publication such as the OAG Guide.

Would it be worth restoring this level of information to the ticket, and providing a lookup to the codes from the journey planner on the NR website, or would it be too difficult (or confusing) for this information to be made available to the public in this way?

that seems a very good idea. if that used to be the case, why did it stop?

 

[Ferret]

Would help me no end as somebody who checks tickets as part of his duties!

 

[ainsworth74]

The cynic in me thinks that it might be because someone realised that there was money to be made by confusing the passengers as to what the restrictions are on their tickets, so they can be made to pay for their mistakes with PF and the like.

My less cynical mind thinks someone messed up and forgot to include it at some point during a redesign of ticketing stock.

 

[yorkie]

This has been suggested many times before, but will never happen (at least not with the current ticketing system) because the rules are so incredibly complex in many cases.

Print this on your ticket...

Restriction : XC
JOURNEYS TO/FROM/VIA LONDON/
READING

Available as listed below
MONDAYS TO FRIDAYS (by any
train on Saturdays, Sundays
and Bank Holiday Mondays).

TOWARDS LONDON

Available on the following
trains and all later services:
From:
Swansea ________________0845
(also valid between 0200&0430)
Neath 0855
(also valid between 0200&0430)
Port Talbot Parkway ____0905
(also valid between 0200&0445)
Bridgend _______________0915
(also valid between 0200&0500)
Cardiff Central ________0940
(also valid between 0200&0530)
Newport_________________1000
(also valid between 0200&0545)
Bristol Parkway_________1015
(also valid between 0200&0530)
Avoncliff ______________0940
Bradford on Avon________0935
Freshford __________0940
Trowbridge______________0930
Westbury________________1003
(also valid via Bath Spa)
Bridgwater______________0840
Highbridge______________0845
Weston-Super-Mare ______0920
Weston Milton___________0905
Worle___________________0910
Yatton__________________0925
Nailsea & Backwell______0930
Bristol Temple Meads____0945
(also valid between 0200&0510)
Bath Spa _______________1000
Chippenham______________1010
Cheltenham Spa 0930*
Gloucester 0930*
Stonehouse______________0955
Stroud _________________1000
Kemble _________________1015
Swindon 1030
(also valid between 0200&0545)
* When travelling via Bristol
Parkway on tickets routed
'Any Permitted', the
restriction time shown above
for Bristol Parkway also
applies

FROM LONDON
See Note A below

Note A
Valid on services departing
London Paddington or London
Waterloo between 1010 and 1501
, or after 1900 (departing
Reading, heading west (i.e.
services passing through
Didcot Parkway, Oxford
or Newbury ONLY) between 1030
and 1530, or after 18900

 

[ainsworth74]

Print this on your ticket...

I think it would be a struggle to get those onto the old airline style tickets

But why not have the restriction codes printed on the ticket with a lookup table on the internet and printed in leaflet form that can be picked up from stations?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . tickets used to print the restriction code itself (e.g. 9N) as well as the somewhat bland and uninformative "SEE RESTRICTIONS". It was then relatively straightforward for a member of the travelling public to look this up in a publication such as the OAG Guide.

Would it be worth restoring this level of information to the ticket . .

It would. And that would be more than just "a good idea", as I believe it would give some of the restrictions some validity which, regrettably, by being obscured have arguable validity.
In other words, I beleive that an unambiguous and uncontentious reference (the code) to the restrictions must be displayed on all tickets.

and providing a lookup to the codes from the journey planner on the NR website, or would it be too difficult (or confusing) for this information to be made available to the public in this way?

Would help me no end as somebody who checks tickets as part of his duties!

Exactly! Its the traveller AND the rail staff who would benefit.

This has been suggested many times before, but will never happen (at least not with the current ticketing system) because the rules are so incredibly complex in many cases.

Print this on your ticket...
. . .
. . .

But that's not the suggestion!!!! Just print the code, which unambiguously refers back to the fully detailled text.

It would let everyone know what the conditions were. Its called "transparency".

 

[tony_mac]

but then they would have to make the actual conditions clear and unambiguous.
I can't see that happening any time soon!

 

[Clip]

I remember when Chiltern used to add the little booklet on the Brum tickets telling you what was valid. They still have boxes full of them too

 

[John @ home]

I think that campaigning to have the codes printed on tickets would be a mistake. Passenger Focus called last autumn for the restriction itself to be on the ticket. In my opinion, that is the best way forward. If the restriction is too complex to fit the template "M-F: Valid xxxx to yyyy and from zzzz." then the restriction needs to be simplified.

 

[222007]

Personally when i am unsure if a tickets valid i'll quickly type the journey into my Advantix and click the restriction button and have a quick check doesnt normally take too long and i rarely have to do it anyway

 

[Wyvern]

Tickets I have bought recently have said:

Via FCC

and

Via London only

Seemed straighforward enough to me

It does worry me when it says "Any Permitted" What routes would not be permitted? For instance could I go from Derby to Brighton but via Tamworth or Birmingham rather than the MML?

 

[PhilipW]

How would printing "Restriction 9N" (for example) be of any help to the public ?

999 out of 1,000 would not understand it.
In fact it is probably 9,999 out of 10,000.

I don't understand it. Although a railway fan on this site, I would have no idea where to find the explanation, let alone have inclination to find out.

Far, far, far many restrictions and rules on the railways in Britains. The TOCs ned to come back to real world of ordinary travellers and have simple and easy to uinderstand rules.

 

[General Zod]

Apologies Philip but what is restriction code 9N and which route / journey does it apply to ?

Thanks,
Z

 

[flymo]

All that needs to happen is to have the restriction code, i.e. 9N as above, printed on the ticket and a free of charge look up of the codes or a print out of the code issued alongside the ticket. Sounds simple enough. After splitting the atom many decades ago and landing a man on the moon (conspiracy theories not withstanding), it should not be a massive task for mankind to print a couple of lines of restrictions on a piece of paper.

Then again this is Britain's railways we are talking about. The place where constants aren't and variables don't.

 

[87 027]

The place where constants aren't and variables don't.

Perhaps ATOC should commission Prof. Stephen Hawking to write A Brief Guide to Ticketing and Routeing?

 

[PhilipW]

Apologies Philip but what is restriction code 9N and which route / journey does it apply to ?

Thanks,
Z

I have no idea what '9N' means and don't know how to find out.

Likewise to 99.999% of the population, this would be meaningless. Already , as reported in 'Which' last week, the railways abiliity not to be able to speak in plain English causes much confusion.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Perhaps ATOC should commission Prof. Stephen Hawking to write A Brief Guide to Ticketing and Routeing?

Good one. Humourous, but also sadly true.

 

[jopsuk]

What with machines being able to print receipts, seat reservations and even East Coast "catering vouchers", surely it should be possible to print an extra "Restrictions" coupon for time restrictions? Should also be more than possible to display restrictions, as default, before purchace on machines, and for ticket office staff to mention restrictions (could display on their screen to help them) at time of sale.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
But then again, we could have a simpler, easier to understand ticketing system. Of course, with current muddle and available-but-really-hard-to-find restrictions etc, companies can make a fast buck through passenger mistakes.

 

[sheff1]

... Passenger Focus called last autumn for the restriction itself to be on the ticket. In my opinion, that is the best way forward. If the restriction is too complex to fit the template "M-F: Valid xxxx to yyyy and from zzzz." then the restriction needs to be simplified.

I agree, but at present very few people are even aware restriction codes/info exists.

However, if the code was printed on the ticket and the full table was readily availble on line and in a booklet, some people would begin to use it. The more who used it, and pointed out the unecessary complexity, the more pressure could be brought to simplify the restrictions.

 

[mickey]

How would printing "Restriction 9N" (for example) be of any help to the public ?

I agree. And I still agree even if you propose to have this information in a leaflet or shown on the website. It's far too complicated for the average person to understand immediately, and the admin costs of producing it and keeping it up to date will be huge.

At the moment basic routing information (e.g. VIA NOT LONDON) is printed on the ticket, and if anyone who wants to know what is and isn't a permitted route can ask any member of ticketing staff, either at a station or on the train. The same goes with peak/off-peak restrictions, though some of these are shown on LM/EC booking sites. Now whether staff should be given better training to ensure they all perform at the same level as the best is another question entirely, but I do think it's more effective this way. In any case, 'simplification' is almost guaranteed to lead to either higher fares for all or less flexibility for some, and for me that's equally unacceptable.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Perhaps ATOC should commission Prof. Stephen Hawking to write A Brief Guide to Ticketing and Routeing?

That reminds me of the time Martin Lewis, the self-titled moneysavingexpert, once tried to commission a website that would find the best options for split ticketing but, despite several postgraduate mathematicians working full time on the algorithms, it couldn't be done and had to be abandoned.

 

[janb]

Should also be more than possible to display restrictions, as default, before purchace on machines, and for ticket office staff to mention restrictions (could display on their screen to help them) at time of sale.

Ticket office staff should mention any restrictions when they sell a ticket anyway.

 

[yorkie]

That reminds me of the time Martin Lewis, the self-titled moneysavingexpert, once tried to commission a website that would find the best options for split ticketing but, despite several postgraduate mathematicians working full time on the algorithms, it couldn't be done and had to be abandoned.

Interesting. Is there some documentation of this attempt, or an article about it? Nick W is making such an attempt (as posted in another thread recently), but refuses to believe me when I say it's incredibly difficult...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Likewise to 99.999% of the population, this would be meaningless. Already , as reported in 'Which' last week, the railways abiliity not to be able to speak in plain English causes much confusion.

It would be meaningless to passengers, I agree. I would oppose just including the restriction code and nothing else. The whole restriction should be on but only if they are genuinely simplified (but not at our expense!). This will not happen under the current fragmented, ludicrous system.

 

[PhilipW]

Ticket office staff should mention any restrictions when they sell a ticket anyway.

Worth remembering that (in SWT land in particular) Ticket Offices are not places that TOCs like. They want the public to use the Ticket Machines so they can close Ticket Offices or restict their hours of opening.

The fact that a lot of the public still find ticket machines complicated and would rather queue to speak to a person.... ah well, that's another story.

 

[OwlMan]

That reminds me of the time Martin Lewis, the self-titled moneysavingexpert, once tried to commission a website that would find the best options for split ticketing but, despite several postgraduate mathematicians working full time on the algorithms, it couldn't be done and had to be abandoned.

Having looked at my self I found the only way to do it (& ensure you found the cheapest) is to map every possible route between the origin and destination (that is every possible route not just permitted routes) and then for every possible route split it into all possible sub-journeys(that is station A-B, A-C,A-D,B-C, B-D,C-D etc) then for every sub-journey look at every fare that includes those two stations on a permitted route (for starting short purposes) and then add together the appropiate parts to find the cheapest total. And then repeat this for every possible journey.

The amount of programming and the comuter memory needed stopped me


Peter

Peter

 

[Greenback]

Worth remembering that (in SWT land in particular) Ticket Offices are not places that TOCs like. They want the public to use the Ticket Machines so they can close Ticket Offices or restict their hours of opening.

The fact that a lot of the public still find ticket machines complicated and would rather queue to speak to a person.... ah well, that's another story.

The best thing for SWT is that they save money on staffing and increase revenue as there is more chance of passengers buying more expensive tickets in error, or getting PF'd by buying the worng ticket! It's win, win, win! Kerching!

 

[mickey]

Interesting. Is there some documentation of this attempt, or an article about it? Nick W is making such an attempt (as posted in another thread recently), but refuses to believe me when I say it's incredibly difficult...

My source is my hearing him discuss it on the radio (presumably Jeremy Vine's show) sometime last year, so unfortunately not that I know of. However, digging round his website I found this, which sort of says it, and offers a hint of a re-opening of the case...

MSE: Cheap Train Tickets

We’ve been investigating an automated Train Ticket Calculator to find split ticket deals. It's more difficult than it appears, requiring huge computing power and research mathematicians to devise the algorithms and a problem of manipulating live data.

We’ve started talking with a specialist partner to get such a tool

 

[TheWalrus]

I fully support this idea.

 

[yorkie]

I fully support this idea.

Do you think that putting a code, that is meaningless to 99% of passengers, that you have to phone a call centre or ask at a station what it means, and then be read out a huge essay, is really going to be of benefit to passengers?

 

[RJ]

I think it would be a struggle to get those onto the old airline style tickets

But why not have the restriction codes printed on the ticket with a lookup table on the internet and printed in leaflet form that can be picked up from stations?

It would be a monumental nightmare to have restrictions published in print form. Have you got any idea how many hundreds of them there are and how often they change?

 

[The North Briton]

I support this idea, because all the TOC's websites (and NRE) are very good at telling you what ticket is valid for a particular train, but very poor at telling you which trains are valid for a particular ticket type.
The fact that the restriction code alone is meaningless to most travellers is not the point. If the detail of the restriction is made available online and in printed form, the onus would be on the passenger to check that the journey they are making falls within those permitted by the ticket. It would avoid many confrontational situations between clueless passengers and revenue staff and between clued-up passengers and (poorly-trained) revenue staff (and , dare I say it, between clueless passengers and poorly-trained revenue staff!).
Let's face it, if you buy an advance ticket, the documentation provided tells you exactly which train to travel on and where to sit, so why not extend this philosophy to 'open' tickets as well?