Progress of delivery of cascaded/refurbished/PRM modified stock to TFW/Wales and Borders

[sw1ller]

So, the Welsh have shelled out £40 million on the refurbishment of a fleet that will gone over the next year. I suppose that due to the state they were in they had little choice.

I really don’t think any of the refurbished stock will be gone this year. And having recently seen a side by side comparison between a non refurbished unit and a recently refurbished one, I’d say it was money well spent. It absolutely needed doing.

 

[Welshman]

I agree it was money well spent. The non-refurbished units were in a very shabby state, but these are some of the most pleasant and comfortable I've travelled on. I do hope they stay in Wales for some time yet.

 

[Philip]

I really don’t think any of the refurbished stock will be gone this year. And having recently seen a side by side comparison between a non refurbished unit and a recently refurbished one, I’d say it was money well spent. It absolutely needed doing.

The 197s and loco hauled stock should be covering most or all of the current 175 diagrams by the end of the year and there's no where else on TfW network for the 175s to go.

 

[tomwills98]

So, the Welsh have shelled out £40 million on the refurbishment of a fleet that will gone over the next year. I suppose that due to the state they were in they had little choice.

They've been due a refurb for the last few years. Do TfW have to hand them back to the ROSCO in same or better state than what they were given in?

 

[berneyarms]

The 197s and loco hauled stock should be covering most or all of the current 175 diagrams by the end of the year and there's no where else on TfW network for the 175s to go.

I wouldn’t be banking on anything.

Every new fleet in recent times has had a delayed rollout and I certainly wouldn’t be surprised if the Class 197 were any different.

 

[wobman]

I wouldn’t be banking on anything.

Every new fleet in recent times has had a delayed rollout and I certainly wouldn’t be surprised if the Class 197 were any different.

Very true

 

[wobman]

The 197s and loco hauled stock should be covering most or all of the current 175 diagrams by the end of the year and there's no where else on TfW network for the 175s to go.

I admire your optimism

 

[craigybagel]

The 197s and loco hauled stock should be covering most or all of the current 175 diagrams by the end of the year and there's no where else on TfW network for the 175s to go.

There's a few Sprinter diagrams that could be covered by 175s in the short term if needs needs be, or they could displace the 170s if EMR need them soon.

However, as others have pointed out, the bigger issue is it's just not realistic that many units will be freed up by the end of the year. Publicly TfW have already pushed back the introduction of the extra MKIV sets to early 2023, and the 197s aren't expected onto Manchester - South Wales services until Autumn 2022.

 

[Envoy]

So, it sounds like we are going to have to suffer yet another summer of rammed 2 or 3 coach trains on the Manchester to west Wales run. It surely would have been helpful if at least 3 car 197’s could have been on the Marches so at least 2 car trains would have gone.

 

[krus_aragon]

So, it sounds like we are going to have to suffer yet another summer of rammed 2 or 3 coach trains on the Manchester to west Wales run. It surely would have been helpful if at least 3 car 197’s could have been on the Marches so at least 2 car trains would have gone.

It may be more realistic to hope for the remaining 3-car 175s (and 2x2-car where platforms allow) to be steered to the Marches as 197s take over North Wales Coast duties.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

They've been due a refurb for the last few years. Do TfW have to hand them back to the ROSCO in same or better state than what they were given in?

The Rosco will have had an underlying mid-life refurb plan for the 175s, for major components, if they want to lease them onwards.
Internally it's a bit different, as that is determined to a large extent by the leasing TOC.
It's never clear who is actually paying for these refurbishments - TfW may only be funding the rebranding to their colours.
There is still a shortage of modern DMUs on the GB network, and plenty of 15x will need replacing in the next decade.

 

[berneyarms]

So, it sounds like we are going to have to suffer yet another summer of rammed 2 or 3 coach trains on the Manchester to west Wales run. It surely would have been helpful if at least 3 car 197’s could have been on the Marches so at least 2 car trains would have gone.

Well bear in mind that there will be one additional Class 175 set and one additional Class 158 available for traffic each day due to both of the respective refurbishment programmes completing (the Class 158 programme should complete by the start of March). That will help a little.

As Class 197s start into traffic, they will slowly release other units too.

But I do think that it is going to be a slow process.

 

[Bob Price]

The 175's are not suited to it but could take over the Gloucester Ebbw Vale and Maesteg services, releasing the 170's and allowing the 231's to displace the 769's. Only problem is whether Canton can service them.

 

[berneyarms]

The 175's are not suited to it but could take over the Gloucester Ebbw Vale and Maesteg services, releasing the 170's and allowing the 231's to displace the 769's. Only problem is whether Canton can service them.

They could swap them over by attaching to evening workings back up North for servicing - there’s always ways around that.

I don’t think that would be an issue.

 

[sd0733]

The 175's are not suited to it but could take over the Gloucester Ebbw Vale and Maesteg services, releasing the 170's and allowing the 231's to displace the 769's. Only problem is whether Canton can service them.

There’s a few 158s and 150s on Cardiff to Holyhead diagrams, I would presume that those will be filled with the released 175s, at least getting them through Chester and keeping the 15x fleet in the south on the current 170 routes.
It seems a given that the first fleets released will be the 170s and 769s.

The problem with 175s is that most routes it’s not as simple as just strengthening services by coupling them on most routes, the lack of SDO and gangways causes quite a few issues on the Marches for anything longer than 2x2 car.

 

[craigybagel]

I was shunting 828 last night and it was an absolute mess. I didn’t realise how run down they had become now I’ve gotten used to the refurbished units.

It failed on me on Friday night and ended up on Crewe shed in disgrace, and hasn't been out since! It wasn't due to go in for works that day, it was due back out again on Saturday morning but that didn't happen.

So, it sounds like we are going to have to suffer yet another summer of rammed 2 or 3 coach trains on the Manchester to west Wales run. It surely would have been helpful if at least 3 car 197’s could have been on the Marches so at least 2 car trains would have gone.

Very complex to get 197s on to Manchester - West Wales. Can't be done until a large enough contingent at Crewe, Cardiff and Carmarthen have been trained, hence it being further down the list then the routes that keep it close to North Wales

The 175's are not suited to it but could take over the Gloucester Ebbw Vale and Maesteg services, releasing the 170's and allowing the 231's to displace the 769's. Only problem is whether Canton can service them.

They could swap them over by attaching to evening workings back up North for servicing - there’s always ways around that.

I don’t think that would be an issue.

Indeed, there has been plenty of interworking between the routes in the past (and there are still Holyhead - Maesteg services on a Sunday). Lots of opportunities for set swaps in Cardiff too, wouldn't be hard to achieve at all.

 

[Caaardiff]

Going slightly off topic but to put a few things clear....

I really don’t think any of the refurbished stock will be gone this year. And having recently seen a side by side comparison between a non refurbished unit and a recently refurbished one, I’d say it was money well spent. It absolutely needed doing.

When the 197's enter service it will be 1 for 1x 175. You have to also bear in mind maintenance space on Alstoms Depot will become tight if 175's don't start to go.

Well bear in mind that there will be one additional Class 175 set and one additional Class 158 available for traffic each day due to both of the respective refurbishment programmes completing (the Class 158 programme should complete by the start of March). That will help a little.

There is a contracted number of 175s that are stopped each day, which I think is 4. The refurbs fell into that. It seems 175002 went to Widnes recently so looks like there's other maintenance programs happening. Possibly due to them leaving TfW. But i don't think it gives an extra unit back.

On top of that though hopefully the 158 will be an extra unit, and the remaining 3 153's at Landore.

The 175's are not suited to it but could take over the Gloucester Ebbw Vale and Maesteg services, releasing the 170's and allowing the 231's to displace the 769's. Only problem is whether Canton can service them.

If TfW had any sense, the 170's will stay until the 231's are fully in service on those lines mentioned. It is true they will be covering 756's in the short term but I would imagine TfW will likely still run a couple of 769s alongside. If EMR are desperate then one or two 170's could be released. The Newport-Cross Key service could be covered by a single 153 at the moment!
175's will not be maintained at Canton on a regular basis, ever. They will only do necessary maintenance if they happen to be there with a fault.

There is still a hope of getting the 230's into service which will free up 2 150's.

 

[berneyarms]

Going slightly off topic but to put a few things clear....

When the 197's enter service it will be 1 for 1x 175. You have to also bear in mind maintenance space on Alstoms Depot will become tight if 175's don't start to go.

There is a contracted number of 175s that are stopped each day, which I think is 4. The refurbs fell into that. It seems 175002 went to Widnes recently so looks like there's other maintenance programs happening. Possibly due to them leaving TfW. But i don't think it gives an extra unit back.

On top of that though hopefully the 158 will be an extra unit, and the remaining 3 153's at Landore.

If TfW had any sense, the 170's will stay until the 231's are fully in service on those lines mentioned. It is true they will be covering 756's in the short term but I would imagine TfW will likely still run a couple of 769s alongside. If EMR are desperate then one or two 170's could be released. The Newport-Cross Key service could be covered by a single 153 at the moment!
175's will not be maintained at Canton on a regular basis, ever. They will only do necessary maintenance if they happen to be there with a fault.

There is still a hope of getting the 230's into service which will free up 2 150's.

I take your point re the Class 175s and contracted stoppages but one less unit on a long term refurb programme can still be pulled into service if needs be at Chester as a last resort if only undergoing light maintenance.

 

[Anonymous10]

It may be more realistic to hope for the remaining 3-car 175s (and 2x2-car where platforms allow) to be steered to the Marches as 197s take over North Wales Coast duties.

2 2 car 175 could definitely run through to Pembroke dock and i believe they can easily run Milford haven as well

 

[Caaardiff]

2 2 car 175 could definitely run through to Pembroke dock and i believe they can easily run Milford haven as well

They wouldn't need to. They could just start the 197 plan of detaching and attaching at Swansea to better utilise them

 

[Anonymous10]

They wouldn't need to. They could just start the 197 plan of detaching and attaching at Swansea to better utilise them

I’d agree just stating its possible though they may be better split at Whitland.

 

[John C]

158826 made for an unusual sight in Huddersfield today heading to Doncaster on 566C 0729 Cardiff Canton Sidings to Doncaster Works Wagn Shops.

158826

Huddersfield 29/01/2022 Transport for Wales Operating 566C 0729 Cardiff Canton Sidings to Doncaster Works Wagn Shops

www.flickr.com

 

[Anonymous10]

158826 made for an unusual sight in Huddersfield today heading to Doncaster on 566C 0729 Cardiff Canton Sidings to Doncaster Works Wagn Shops.

158826

Huddersfield 29/01/2022 Transport for Wales Operating 566C 0729 Cardiff Canton Sidings to Doncaster Works Wagn Shops

www.flickr.com

are they driven by another toc or rog drivers when going to Doncaster?

 

[John C]

are they driven by another toc or rog drivers when going to Doncaster?

Railcam was showing it as Freighliner.

 

[Anonymous10]

Railcam was showing it as Freighliner.

that's interesting

 

[Jez]

I agree it was money well spent. The non-refurbished units were in a very shabby state, but these are some of the most pleasant and comfortable I've travelled on. I do hope they stay in Wales for some time yet.

I agree the 175s were long overdue a refurbishment. They were looking in a very bad state by the end and also no plug sockets on trains going long distance in the 2020s was poor.

I travelled on a non-refurbished 158 yesterday (158828) and to be honest it looked in very good condition, certainly compared to both the 175s and what the 158s were like before ATW refurbished them about a decade ago.

Incidentally, I overheard the guard tell the catering person that a 153 was to be attached at Swansea before the train went further west - looking at RTT it appears this was formed off a pair of 153s that arrived in Swansea from Carmarthen. The other 153 was bound for the Heart of Wales. Good strengthening of services, which cant happen if a 175 is booked as they cant attach 153s or indeed anything else to them. So i wondered if this is a regular booked working as a 3 car 158/153 as the 153 stayed on the diagram, down to Milford and back to Manchester and then finally ending in Cardiff at night.

 

[Armchair Bob]

Newly refurbished 153972 was released from Landore last Friday and sent to Canton to be prepared for service.

 

[JakeMurphy]

What’s the latest with the 150’s?

 

[Armchair Bob]

What’s the latest with the 150’s?

150235 now in for refurb.

 

[berneyarms]

150235 now in for refurb.

Did 150 217 get refurbished after 150 284?

So that means that currently the following sets are being refurbished:
150 235 is in Canton
153 918; 153 968 and 153 982 are in Landore
158 825 is in Crewe