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Progress of delivery of cascaded/refurbished/PRM modified stock to TFW/Wales and Borders

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craigybagel

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As part of the timetable change and the reintroduction of an all day Cardiff - Holyhead service, 2 MKIV sets are now booked in service every day working 3 round trips between them.

Diagram 1:
1W91 06:45 CDF-HHD
1V96 11:33 HHD-CDF
1W96 17:16 CDF-HHD

Diagram 2:
1V91 05:33 HHD-CDF
1W93 11:22 CDF-HHD
1V98 16:36 HHD-CDF
 
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153 922 left Landore today as the latest 153 to undergo PRM Lite and repaint.

153 935 came in on a slip move and joins 153 913 on works undergoing these mods.

That's 6 units now that have had PRM Lite completed: 906, 926, 921, 909, 910 & 922
 

PHILIPE

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Thank you very much.

I have been doing an audit of what I require for haulage, and of the Wales 153s, it is 320 and 935 (335) that are required (assuming 320 has not been one that has gone for scrap).

153320 is on the Chester to Holyhead 158 strengthening job today and 153935 went into Landore today for it's Lite PRM conversion so will be out of the way for a few weeks.
 
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At the moment not 918, 968, 972 and 982 so they will not be given a lite PRM. I say at the moment as a caveat

These 4 units are now owned by TfW and will be getting PRM mods after the last of the 9 Porterbrook units are complete.
 

wobman

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TFW need all the trains they can get, they seem to like the 153's as they are cheap and flexible for strengthening services.
 

St. Paddy

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Thanks Mike. Glad to see they will be wanted long term after all. I take it these will be Lite Mods
According to an article in Today’s Railway UK 3 or 4 months ago, it will be the full PRM mods including the toilet. Their dispensation is until the end of the year whilst the lite ones are until the end of this month. However, we shall see.
 

PHILIPE

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According to an article in Today’s Railway UK 3 or 4 months ago, it will be the full PRM mods including the toilet. Their dispensation is until the end of the year whilst the lite ones are until the end of this month. However, we shall see.

I think the lite ones will have an extension considering that two are in Landore for the mods with one only gone in today and only two weeks to go until the end of the month. The dispensation letters dated 27 May say until 31st December.
 

Caaardiff

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These 4 units are now owned by TfW and will be getting PRM mods after the last of the 9 Porterbrook units are complete.
It seems pointless TfW purchasing these units, even if they are to get the full PRM mods. If its just PRM lite then it's even more pointless!
They would be better off purchasing the ones that originally had the full PRM mods and letting these 4 go. Although TfW need as many units as they can get, the balance of having 2 units in Landore will come to an end soon so by getting rid of the last 4 they are only effectively 2 units down. Long term the PRM lite units can't be used anyway unless some kind of long term dispensation is granted to allow them to continue to run attached.

Unless of course the original 153s with full PRM have expensive leases on. But surely a renegotiation could be done as they would be destined for scrap anyway and avoid the cost of mods.
 

43096

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It seems pointless TfW purchasing these units, even if they are to get the full PRM mods. If its just PRM lite then it's even more pointless!
They would be better off purchasing the ones that originally had the full PRM mods and letting these 4 go. Although TfW need as many units as they can get, the balance of having 2 units in Landore will come to an end soon so by getting rid of the last 4 they are only effectively 2 units down. Long term the PRM lite units can't be used anyway unless some kind of long term dispensation is granted to allow them to continue to run attached.

Unless of course the original 153s with full PRM have expensive leases on. But surely a renegotiation could be done as they would be destined for scrap anyway and avoid the cost of mods.
Before you set off on a rant, maybe better to look at what is going on?

As a reminder...
TfW have bought 11 153s from Angel, of which one has gone for scrap after spares recovery (302) and another is for spares (374). The other nine are split:
- already fully PRM modified: 303/312/327/353/362
- not yet PRM modified: 918/962/972/982

The rest of the fleet is Porterbrook owned:
- fully PRM modified: 320/323/325/329/333/361/367/369
- PRM lite completed/in progress: 906/909/910/913/921/922/926/935
- not modified, PRM lite to be done: 914

Before you ask about buying Porterbrook units, perhaps they don't want to sell?
 

wobman

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Before you set off on a rant, maybe better to look at what is going on?

As a reminder...
TfW have bought 11 153s from Angel, of which one has gone for scrap after spares recovery (302) and another is for spares (374). The other nine are split:
- already fully PRM modified: 303/312/327/353/362
- not yet PRM modified: 918/962/972/982

The rest of the fleet is Porterbrook owned:
- fully PRM modified: 320/323/325/329/333/361/367/369
- PRM lite completed/in progress: 906/909/910/913/921/922/926/935
- not modified, PRM lite to be done: 914

Before you ask about buying Porterbrook units, perhaps they don't want to sell?
TFW are doing there best to get extra units that they can utilise, it seems no matter what that try to do they can't win.

They seem to be in a no win situation, they are short of units but they get units and people complain. Looking at the condition of a lot of the extra 153's I can see why TFW are giving them mini refurbs.
They haven't been looked after very well and they have lots of issues and lack compatibility with the existing TFW units they couple up to.

I can't see the leases on the 153's being expensive considering many were sat in sidings unused, so the Roscos will probably just be happy for them being used.
Plus they are just stop gaps until the new rolling stock comes into service.
 

Caaardiff

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Before you set off on a rant, maybe better to look at what is going on?

As a reminder...
TfW have bought 11 153s from Angel, of which one has gone for scrap after spares recovery (302) and another is for spares (374). The other nine are split:
- already fully PRM modified: 303/312/327/353/362
- not yet PRM modified: 918/962/972/982

The rest of the fleet is Porterbrook owned:
- fully PRM modified: 320/323/325/329/333/361/367/369
- PRM lite completed/in progress: 906/909/910/913/921/922/926/935
- not modified, PRM lite to be done: 914

Before you ask about buying Porterbrook units, perhaps they don't want to sell?
I think you've missed my point, which is I can't see why TfW needed to purchase these units that only have a limited life cycle left, rather than just continuing to lease them and being able to hand them back once they aren't needed anymore.

Rather than also going through the expense of giving the remaining 4 full PRM mods it would make more sense to extend the lease on 4 porterbrook units. It's unlikely any if these will find homes with other TOCs in the next year or two as the fleet swaps around the UK would be in a better position by then.

TFW are doing there best to get extra units that they can utilise, it seems no matter what that try to do they can't win.

They seem to be in a no win situation, they are short of units but they get units and people complain. Looking at the condition of a lot of the extra 153's I can see why TFW are giving them mini refurbs.
They haven't been looked after very well and they have lots of issues and lack compatibility with the existing TFW units they couple up to.

I can't see the leases on the 153's being expensive considering many were sat in sidings unused, so the Roscos will probably just be happy for them being used.
Plus they are just stop gaps until the new rolling stock comes into service.
Again, missed my point. The 153s have definitely been worthwhile having, even the non PRM units.
But the time and expense of continuing the PRM mods seems unnecessary once these last 2 come out of Landore.
The original additions from WMR and GWR were taken on when 153s will still in higher demand because they were needed to replace Pacers and the long line of units that hadn't had PRM mods across the country in time for the deadline, affecting a few TOCs.

The latest additions to the TfW fleet were taken in desperation because of the heavily delayed 230 and 769 introductions.
 

wobman

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Obviously TFW are desperate and need to provide a service, they are very short of units and maybe they had no other option other than to purchase the units
Non of us were there in the meetings but there must be good reasons behind the purchases, it may be actually cheaper that leasing them.

The introduction of the new CAF and Stadler units at TFW won't happen overnight, so they are planning for the next few years by acquiring the extra 153 units.
The non prm modded units have t be coupled to a prm unit for them to legally run in service, plus the unrefurbished are not in a very good condition.
Refurbishment helps reliability and compliance, tocs don't make these decisions for the fun of it. There's sound reasons behind the planning and management of refurbs.
 

Rhydgaled

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I think you've missed my point, which is I can't see why TfW needed to purchase these units that only have a limited life cycle left, rather than just continuing to lease them and being able to hand them back once they aren't needed anymore.

Rather than also going through the expense of giving the remaining 4 full PRM mods it would make more sense to extend the lease on 4 porterbrook units. It's unlikely any if these will find homes with other TOCs in the next year or two as the fleet swaps around the UK would be in a better position by then.


Again, missed my point. The 153s have definitely been worthwhile having, even the non PRM units.
But the time and expense of continuing the PRM mods seems unnecessary once these last 2 come out of Landore.
The original additions from WMR and GWR were taken on when 153s will still in higher demand because they were needed to replace Pacers and the long line of units that hadn't had PRM mods across the country in time for the deadline, affecting a few TOCs.

The latest additions to the TfW fleet were taken in desperation because of the heavily delayed 230 and 769 introductions.
I thought the 153s (or some of them at least, not sure which ones) are no-longer planned to leave TfW any time soon since the plan to put 170s on the Heart Of Wales has been scrapped in favour of keeping 153s on the route long-term...
 

wobman

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I thought the 153s (or some of them at least, not sure which ones) are no-longer planned to leave TfW any time soon since the plan to put 170s on the Heart Of Wales has been scrapped in favour of keeping 153s on the route long-term...
That's what I heard after the departure of the 170 units
 

berneyarms

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Have all of the former Anglia 170s now gone to East Midlands?

I am trying to do an audit of what is required for haulage and in which part of the UK.
Only one Class 170 has moved to EMR, 170 273.
The rest aren't lilely to be moving ovewr until TfW start introducing new rolling stock, in other words next year.
 

43096

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I thought the 153s (or some of them at least, not sure which ones) are no-longer planned to leave TfW any time soon since the plan to put 170s on the Heart Of Wales has been scrapped in favour of keeping 153s on the route long-term...
The plan is for 8 or 9 153s to be retained for the Heart of Wales services: it is reasonable to assume that this is why TfW has bought those 153s from Angel - they are part of the long-term fleet. Release of the 170s has been made possible by the retention of the 153s and the acquisition of the extra four Mark 4 sets: so it's 28 or 29 vehicles into the long-term fleet with 32 170 vehicles leaving (although the 170s have never been fully diagrammed in any case).
 

Caaardiff

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I thought the 153s (or some of them at least, not sure which ones) are no-longer planned to leave TfW any time soon since the plan to put 170s on the Heart Of Wales has been scrapped in favour of keeping 153s on the route long-term...
They are indeed planned to work HOWL. But there's only so long these will last. They are a stop gap for a few years until a decision is made as to what traction will work HOWL long term.
 

sd0733

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They are indeed planned to work HOWL. But there's only so long these will last. They are a stop gap for a few years until a decision is made as to what traction will work HOWL long term.
If* they've bought them for a low price, potentially effectively scrap value seeing as nobody else wanted and after using them can still sell for scrap value and save all the leasing costs in the meantime plus getting spares from 302 and 374 it seems like a sensible bit of business.

(*Obviously if that is the case and they didnt pay a fortune)
 

Rhydgaled

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The plan is for 8 or 9 153s to be retained for the Heart of Wales services: it is reasonable to assume that this is why TfW has bought those 153s from Angel - they are part of the long-term fleet.
Yep, that seems reasonable. Even more reasonable (and what I thought might be the case) would be that the 8 or 9 class 153 being purchased by TfW and retained long-term were taken from the 13 (? - I forget the exact number) that received full PRM mods as part of the original TfW-RS plan before all the extra units (eg. Porterbrook 769 compensation) were added.

From your earlier post, it looks like 13 class 153s have completed the full PRM programme, but that these are a mix of 5 Angel (now TfW-owned) units and 8 Porterbrook ones. I'm guessing that was the original fleet I mention in the previous paragraph and that the fact it was shared between ROSCOs made it difficult for TfW to purchase them all together. Apart from having two ROSCOs involved, it does seem like the sensible thing to do would have been to purchase the 13 units (or 9 of them if that's all that will be required for the HOWL in future) that are already PRM compliant rather than doing full PRM mods on any more units unless it's needed in the short term due to the 769 problems.
 
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