Proposed new Far North Line timetable?

[Bletchleyite]

Just reading Modern Railways, and a letter in it refers to a proposal in a previous issue (which I must have missed) of reducing the end to end service to 2 trains per day, but running semifast, and separate local services terminating at Helmsdale.

Does anyone know more about this proposal?

 

[class26]

Just reading Modern Railways, and a letter in it refers to a proposal in a previous issue (which I must have missed) of reducing the end to end service to 2 trains per day, but running semifast, and separate local services terminating at Helmsdale.

Does anyone know more about this proposal?

Don`t know any more but would like to have the logic explained . If stopping services from Wick/ Thurso connect at Helmsdale into an Inverness service why not just go straight through or have I missed something ?

 

[JonathanH]

Don`t know any more but would like to have the logic explained . If stopping services from Wick/ Thurso connect at Helmsdale into an Inverness service why not just go straight through or have I missed something ?

I think you are misreading what is suggested - I read it as using the same quantum of rolling stock to run fewer services north of Helmsdale and more services south of there, with the two trains (instead of four) going through to Thurso / Wick missing some of the intermediate stations.

Ah, maybe I am wrong - see page 5 of this pdf presentation

http://www.fofnl.org.uk/archives/FNLRT-Final-Report.pdf

I assume the issue at Helmsdale is matching passing loop times north and south of there, and perhaps recognises that the 'travel to Inverness for work' limit is Helmsdale before the line goes inland.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interesting. That looks like the sort of service pattern you'd get on that sort of line in e.g. Malaysia, but it is rather complex, and loss of direct services to Inverness from smaller stations could damage their usage more?

 

[class26]

I think you are misreading what is suggested - I read it as using the same quantum of rolling stock to run fewer services north of Helmsdale and more services south of there, with the two trains (instead of four) going through to Thurso / Wick missing some of the intermediate stations.

Ah, maybe I am wrong - see page 5 of this pdf presentation

http://www.fofnl.org.uk/archives/FNLRT-Final-Report.pdf

I assume the issue at Helmsdale is matching passing loop times north and south of there, and perhaps recognises that the 'travel to Inverness for work' limit is Helmsdale before the line goes inland.

View attachment 86505

Thanks for showing this. I still don`t get the logic of it. Why run just to Helmsdale with some service (if that is the intention) ?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Thanks for showing this. I still don`t get the logic of it. Why run just to Helmsdale with some service (if that is the intention) ?

Presumably loadings are relatively higher South of Helmsdale.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Presumably loadings are relatively higher South of Helmsdale.

I think the issue is that the paths for the 4tpd local service north of there (based on demand) don't match up with the 4tpd south of there. But I really think only 2tpd of through services is just giving up on through custom and asking Stagey if they'd like it instead. At least they need to get a lunchtime train in there as well.

I like the idea of using bus-style/SBB-style request stop operation, i.e. a button on the station and potentially a button on the train, so you can run through a request stop at linespeed - in that case why bother with expresses/stoppers as a split? Altnabreac probably gets requested once a week or thereabouts (I have! ).

 

[37424]

The way it is shown is slightly confusing, it seems to suggest that there will be 2 limited stop services between Inverness and Thurso/Wick and then the local service of 2 trains will just be between Helmsdale and Thurso/Wick and if you wanted to go to Inverness you would have to change at Helmsdale. If thats thats actually what they are proposing it doesn't seem very good, however you would expect that more likely that the two local services would combine and effectively run as through train to Inverness but it's not very clear.

 

[Bald Rick]

Seems to be a better freight service to the industrial heartland of Georgemas than passenger service...

 

[Bletchleyite]

The way it is shown is slightly confusing, it seems to suggest that there will be 2 limited stop services between Inverness and Thurso/Wick and then the local service of 2 trains will just be between Helmsdale and Thurso/Wick and if you wanted to go to Inverness you would have to change at Helmsdale. If thats thats actually what they are proposing

I believe it is what they are proposing, yes.

 

[37424]

I believe it is what they are proposing, yes.

I am skeptical thats what they are really proposing it doesnt make a lot of sense unless you want 2 services each way carting fresh air about.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Are we not talking about Inverness-Helmsdale all sheds stoppers being interlaced with a couple of Inverness-Wick/Thurso semi-stoppers?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I am skeptical thats what they are really proposing it doesnt make a lot of sense unless you want 2 services each way carting fresh air about.

It doesn't make an awful lot of sense. To be honest, closing some stations (much as I love the quirky nature of Altnabreac for example) would probably make more sense than having a fast and slow on a line with such an infrequent service.

 

[37424]

Are we not talking about Inverness-Helmsdale all sheds stoppers being interlaced with a couple of Inverness-Wick/Thurso semi-stoppers?

Yes but it doesnt really make sense not to combine it with the Helmsdale-Inverness service and run it as a through train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes but it doesnt really make sense not to combine it with the Helmsdale-Inverness service and run it as a through train.

I guess the principle is that the needs are at different times than make the through service possible. The trouble is that only two through services per day (with the morning southbound being a very early start) will basically kill any end to end use of the line. A rural infrequent service line really needs three services per day - morning, lunchtime and evening.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

At least three
How might the times be calculated? Sometimes, maybe in summer, many halts at request stops might be made, in winter fewer
Would one have to be at the station ten minutes early to press the button?

 

[37424]

The hourly service to Tain makes sense as beyond Tain the line becomes less competative due to the Bridge, but I dont see how its really benifical to then just run 4 trains per day to Helmsdale and not run them all as through trains. The only reason to split the service was if it was more convienent to local traffic to run at different times to what a through service would dictate but is there really enough local demand to justify that particularly at the expense of some through traffic?

 

[Greybeard33]

The hourly service to Tain makes sense as beyond Tain the line becomes less competative due to the Bridge, but I dont see how its really benifical to then just run 4 trains per day to Helmsdale and not run them all as through trains. The only reason to split the service was if it was more convienent to local traffic to run at different times to what a through service would dictate but is there really enough local demand to justify that particularly at the expense of some through traffic?

The proposal would give the coastal communities from Helmsdale south a more usable service for day trips to Inverness. First arrival at Inverness before 0900 instead of 1035, last departure from Inverness around 2000 instead of 1831.

 

[Ianno87]

Interesting. That looks like the sort of service pattern you'd get on that sort of line in e.g. Malaysia, but it is rather complex, and loss of direct services to Inverness from smaller stations could damage their usage more?

The proposal would give the coastal communities from Helmsdale south a more usable service for day trips to Inverness. First arrival at Inverness before 0900 instead of 1035, last departure from Inverness around 2000 instead of 1831.

Does strike me better at targeting the timetable at where rail can be most effective.

 

[37424]

Does strike me better at targeting the timetable at where rail can be most effective.

Maybe depends whether a potential loss of through traffic is more than made up for by local traffic gains, the journey time to such as Brora, Golspie isnt that competative with with road due to the bridge.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The proposal would give the coastal communities from Helmsdale south a more usable service for day trips to Inverness. First arrival at Inverness before 0900 instead of 1035, last departure from Inverness around 2000 instead of 1831.

But couldn't you achieve that by just adding an extra morning and evening service that only go as far as Helmsdale rather than near-totally separating the service?

Is there a more detailed proposed timetable anywhere?

 

[tbtc]

Does strike me better at targeting the timetable at where rail can be most effective.

Agreed.

I'd personally rather have a couple of *useful* departures a day than four randomly timed ones.

The old timetable is reminiscent of the old Heart Of Wales timetable, which was more about "running four trains per day through all stations" than actually providing a useful service to any of them (i.e. the "four a day" was more important than actual useful arrival/departure times in Swansea/ Shrewsbury) - same as the Conwy Valley (where - in the weeks that the line hasn't fallen into the river - the unit allocated to it does the maximum number of trips to Bleanau Ffestiniog rather than focussing on giving people a sensible morning arrival into Llandudno and teatime departure).

The stations at the southern end of the line are clearly in the Inverness commuter market - especially as far as Tain (given the Lairg diversion compared to the A9) - the parallel Stagecoach services are a good guide to where the everyday demand is - whereas the far north bit of the Far North is more about having a good morning arrival into Inverness, a good afternoon departure from Inverness and a good pair of "day tripper" services for people wanting to head north.

The Wick - Helmsdale services may be more about "we might as well do something with this unit in between the longer trips" or "we'll keep these in the timetable for now but potentially withdraw them after a couple of years due to poor demand", maybe it'd be a lot easier if the timetable only had one passenger unit north of Helmsdale at any stage, so you've got a fairly blank sheet of paper to run it - there are no single line constraints if there is only one train on the line. Obviously freight complicates that a little but you know what I mean - the timetable must be a really awkward one to tweak slightly, given the need to coincide at passing places and build in enough spare time as contingency in case the service in the opposite direction is a little late - splitting at Helmsdale would permit a lot more freedom to tweak the timetable.

Focus resources on where they are most needed - two sensibly timed services are better than four poorly timed ones.

Mind you, if we lived in a co-ordinated world, it'd be nice to have some kind of connecting coach service at Helmsdale for Wick (given that the train doesn't serve the coast between Helmsdale and Wick, and Wick passengers get a raw deal due to the train running up and down the Thurso branch for long distance passengers)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Focus resources on where they are most needed - two sensibly timed services are better than four poorly timed ones.

I'd be inclined to agree, but the problem is that you'll end up stuck with two that are only useful to some.

I'm guessing the morning semifast would be basically the existing morning semifast - 0618 - which is a bit early for checking out of a hotel after breakfast and heading back south. But the present 1600 southbound makes it impossible to get south of Edinburgh/Glasgow, and if it was any later you'd not get past Inverness.

I could see the sense in taking the 0802 southbound out, but the 1234 could really do with staying as a through service. I wonder would there be scope for making one pair of those Helmsdale shuttles match up to enable that?

 

[Greybeard33]

But couldn't you achieve that by just adding an extra morning and evening service that only go as far as Helmsdale rather than near-totally separating the service?

Is there a more detailed proposed timetable anywhere?

Hard to say without seeing the proposed timetable, but I suspect there would be pathing issues with running 6tpd to Helmsdale of which 4 go through to Wick.

It might also be about efficient diagramming to keep costs down. One diagram could be early morning semi-fast Inverness to Wick, then two round trips Wick to Helmsdale and back before an evening semi-fast return to Inverness. A second diagram could be evening semi-fast Inverness to Wick, then semi-fast return the next morning.

 

[37424]

Hard to say without seeing the proposed timetable, but I suspect there would be pathing issues with running 6tpd to Helmsdale of which 4 go through to Wick.

It might also be about efficient diagramming to keep costs down. One diagram could be early morning semi-fast Inverness to Wick, then two round trips Wick to Helmsdale and back before an evening semi-fast return to Inverness. A second diagram could be evening semi-fast Inverness to Wick, then semi-fast return the next morning.

Well there may be an element of that and they are clearly targeting resources more at the Southern part of the route but as to what expense of the northern section?

If we take Brora for instance and a pre 9am train, is someone really going to spend 2 hours commuting to Inverness when you can do it by car in half the time, and even if they carnt drive there a bus at that time which is at least at quick as the train, the current timetable will be better for someone wanting to spend a more leisurly day in Inverness.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

The Wick - Helmsdale services may be more about "we might as well do something with this unit in between the longer trips" or "we'll keep these in the timetable for now but potentially withdraw them after a couple of years due to poor demand"

A minor detail, perhaps, but the Far North Line is of course the principal return route for Land's End—John O'Groats cyclists, and at many times of year the bike spaces fill up quickly. Two through journeys won't be enough, unless ScotRail convert a few more 153s to put on the back.

Running a Wick-Helmsdale local as well as a Helmsdale-Inverness means that the through journey capacity is retained, even if it does necessitate a long stop at Helmsdale. (That's ok, there's a couple of pubs there...)

 

[adrock1976]

For the 60 minute frequency between Inverness and Tain, with some increases to 30 minutes between Inverness and Dingwall (both short workings and also the Kyle of Lochalsh trains for this section), ideally the track needs to be reinstated at Lentran to create a dynamic loop and also ideally, a dynamic loop somewhere between Evanton and Alness or Alness and Invergorden as it is an arrow straight section of track.

Without dynamic loops, the timetable would not be robust enough leading to delays and cancellations, which in turn would not encourage people to leave cars at home and use public transport.

The journey time Inverness - Muir of Ord (passing loop) is 20 minutes, Muir of Ord - Dingwall is 10-11 minutes totalling 30-31 minutes for that section. Dingwall - Invergordon is 17 minutes, and Invergordon - Tain is 19 minutes. In total, Inverness - Tain is broadly 63 minutes, and trying to build the timetable around the existing passing points can be challenging. I did start a thread in the Speculative Ideas section a while ago regarding a Taktplan (clock face departures) with 2 different versions. The second version was based on a hypothetical rail crossing of the Dornoch Firth, diverging near the caravan site north of Tain, crossing the Firth, into Dornoch, then the former alignment via Embo to rejoin the original route with a north to east curve towards Golspie.

 

[Ianno87]

I'd be inclined to agree, but the problem is that you'll end up stuck with two that are only useful to some.

I'm guessing the morning semifast would be basically the existing morning semifast - 0618 - which is a bit early for checking out of a hotel after breakfast and heading back south. But the present 1600 southbound makes it impossible to get south of Edinburgh/Glasgow, and if it was any later you'd not get past Inverness.

I could see the sense in taking the 0802 southbound out, but the 1234 could really do with staying as a through service. I wonder would there be scope for making one pair of those Helmsdale shuttles match up to enable that?

Is there a massive "check out from hotel" market from Wick mid-morning? Doubt it - maybe one or two passengers per train?

And there is the X99 bus which outpaces the train to Inverness by over an hour.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Seems to be a better freight service to the industrial heartland of Georgemas than passenger service...

Indeed, a path every two hours, seven days per week presumably. Far better than the passenger service at the northern end of the line. Just how many pipes are the oil industry expecting to have delivered?

Is there a massive "check out from hotel" market from Wick mid-morning? Doubt it - maybe one or two passengers per train?

And there is the X99 bus which outpaces the train to Inverness by over an hour.

The Stagecoach bus may, or may not, have a toilet. You may, or may not, rely on a 'comfort stop' at Dornoch. Too bad if you need to 'take a while', instead of just a quick visit! The bus certainly does not have any kind of refreshment facilities.

I would have to be very desperate indeed to take the X99, and by the time I did the full trip I would indeed be very desperate - if you see what I mean.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Stagecoach bus may, or may not, have a toilet. You may, or may not, rely on a 'comfort stop' at Dornoch. Too bad if you need to 'take a while', instead of just a quick visit! The bus certainly does not have any kind of refreshment facilities.

I would have to be very desperate indeed to take the X99, and by the time I did the full trip I would indeed be very desperate - if you see what I mean.

Well, quite. The practical difference between a 4 hour journey and a 5 hour journey is minimal, really - either of them are "travelling for most of the day". So you might as well have one of the well-appointed Grammer-seated Inverness 158s rather than a manky bus. And "manky bus" seems a fair description based on what the coach was like when I saw it last year, it was something NatEx would have retired 10 years ago.