Purchased tickets/Cancelled services but needing to travel on the day (13/08)

[Laketop]

Hi all,

I have two train tickets booked (2x Advance Single - Fareham to Edinburgh) for the 13th of August. The tickets were booked in advance and for this specific day due to working both the day before and working in Edinburgh the day after.

The route on the itinerary states travelling to London (done regularly, not the issue), catching an Avanti West Coast service to Glasgow Central, disembarking at Preston and boarding an Edinburgh-bound train, also an Avanti West Coast service. An intentional route due to the scenery. I have been keeping close tabs on the website and have been in contact with Avanti/LNER for any potential disruption. As of today, I have just read the Avanti website stating 'On 13 August, please do not travel on Avanti West Coast – we will not be running any services on our routes.'. The advice given is to travel on alternative days but due to our circumstances we cannot, and refunding/rebooking is going to incur further costs, especially as our return is already booked.

With this, what would be our course of action to be able to travel on the 13th of August, does the TOC have any obligation to get us to our destination seeing as the tickets were purchased prior to the cancellations?

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Watershed]

Hi all,

I have two train tickets booked (2x Advance Single - Fareham to Edinburgh) for the 13th of August. The tickets were booked in advance and for this specific day due to working both the day before and working in Edinburgh the day after.

The route on the itinerary states travelling to London (done regularly, not the issue), catching an Avanti West Coast service to Glasgow Central, disembarking at Preston and boarding an Edinburgh-bound train, also an Avanti West Coast service. An intentional route due to the scenery. I have been keeping close tabs on the website and have been in contact with Avanti/LNER for any potential disruption. As of today, I have just read the Avanti website stating 'On 13 August, please do not travel on Avanti West Coast – we will not be running any services on our routes.'. The advice given is to travel on alternative days but due to our circumstances we cannot, and refunding/rebooking is going to incur further costs, especially as our return is already booked.

With this, what would be our course of action to be able to travel on the 13th of August, does the TOC have any obligation to get us to our destination seeing as the tickets were purchased prior to the cancellations?

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

There is an ASLEF (drivers) strike on 13 August. This is affecting nine train companies, including Avanti and LNER. Avanti, as you have identified, will not be running any services. LNER will be running a two hourly service to Edinburgh, which I expect will be extremely busy.

LNER still have reservations available on the 12:00 and 15:00 departures from Kings Cross. Lumo will be running their normal service of 5 trains per day, but have instated a 'reservations compulsory' policy due to the expected loadings, and do not appear to have any reservations left.

SWR/Southern will still be running normally between Fareham and London so there is no issue with that part of the journey.

You should contact Avanti and ask them to re-route you via one of the remaining ECML services. They must do this, as you are facing a delay of more than 1 hour (the next Avanti train is not until the next day), for no additional cost.

If they fail or refuse to do so (which is probably quite likely, I'm afraid to say), you should book new tickets as required, and contact Avanti to reclaim the cost of doing so.

However they are likely to be very difficult about paying what you are owed (you may need to go to the Rail Ombudsman or possibly take legal action). Therefore you may wish to consider obtaining a voucher/refund for your Advance and using this to rebook on LNER, as an option involving less hassle.

TrainSplit for instance is able to find an Advance for £93.50 involving the 12:00 off the Cross if you take Southern via Barnham, or for £106.50 if you take SWR.

 

[Laketop]

There is an ASLEF (drivers) strike on 13 August. This is affecting nine train companies, including Avanti and LNER. Avanti, as you have identified, will not be running any services. LNER will be running a two hourly service to Edinburgh, which I expect will be extremely busy.

LNER still have reservations available on the 12:00 and 15:00 departures from Kings Cross. Lumo will be running their normal service of 5 trains per day, but have instated a 'reservations compulsory' policy due to the expected loadings, and do not appear to have any reservations left.

SWR/Southern will still be running normally between Fareham and London so there is no issue with that part of the journey.

You should contact Avanti and ask them to re-route you via one of the remaining ECML services. They must do this, as you are facing a delay of more than 1 hour (the next Avanti train is not until the next day), for no additional cost.

If they fail or refuse to do so (which is probably quite likely, I'm afraid to say), you should book new tickets as required, and contact Avanti to reclaim the cost of doing so.

However they are likely to be very difficult about paying what you are owed (you may need to go to the Rail Ombudsman or possibly take legal action). Therefore you may wish to consider obtaining a voucher/refund for your Advance and using this to rebook on LNER, as an option involving less hassle.

TrainSplit for instance is able to find an Advance for £93.50 involving the 12:00 off the Cross if you take Southern via Barnham, or for £106.50 if you take SWR.

Thank you for your reply,

Edit: I have since contacted Avanti West Coast via Twitter but their only advice is to either travel on an alternative day or to refund the tickets thereby removing the protections of the ticket. I have also emailed asking to be re-routed.

There is an ASLEF (drivers) strike on 13 August. This is affecting nine train companies, including Avanti and LNER. Avanti, as you have identified, will not be running any services. LNER will be running a two hourly service to Edinburgh, which I expect will be extremely busy.

LNER still have reservations available on the 12:00 and 15:00 departures from Kings Cross. Lumo will be running their normal service of 5 trains per day, but have instated a 'reservations compulsory' policy due to the expected loadings, and do not appear to have any reservations left.

SWR/Southern will still be running normally between Fareham and London so there is no issue with that part of the journey.

You should contact Avanti and ask them to re-route you via one of the remaining ECML services. They must do this, as you are facing a delay of more than 1 hour (the next Avanti train is not until the next day), for no additional cost.

If they fail or refuse to do so (which is probably quite likely, I'm afraid to say), you should book new tickets as required, and contact Avanti to reclaim the cost of doing so.

However they are likely to be very difficult about paying what you are owed (you may need to go to the Rail Ombudsman or possibly take legal action). Therefore you may wish to consider obtaining a voucher/refund for your Advance and using this to rebook on LNER, as an option involving less hassle.

TrainSplit for instance is able to find an Advance for £93.50 involving the 12:00 off the Cross if you take Southern via Barnham, or for £106.50 if you take SWR.

A follow-up:

They have outright refused to re-route me via any other TOC and stuck to the line of refund/travel another day. This will leave me stranded in London, and if not travelling at all, stranded at my starting point.

With this, is it a case of rocking up on the day to London Euston and asking the same as above seeing as I will be stuck in London with no accommodation, and if refused, to book trains on the day and reclaim the cost?

Furthermore with delay repay, seeing as there are no trains despite being book on one for the day, will I not be able to claim delay repay due to the National Rail Conditions of Travel regarding 'Published Timetable of the Day'?

 

[Watershed]

A follow-up:

They have outright refused to re-route me via any other TOC and stuck to the line of refund/travel another day. This will leave me stranded in London, and if not travelling at all, stranded at my starting point.

With this, is it a case of rocking up on the day to London Euston and asking the same as above seeing as I will be stuck in London with no accommodation, and if refused, to book trains on the day and reclaim the cost?

Yes, that's going to be your best bet.

Furthermore with delay repay, seeing as there are no trains despite being book on one for the day, will I not be able to claim delay repay due to the National Rail Conditions of Travel regarding 'Published Timetable of the Day'?

You might actually get to your destination sooner than booked if you go via the ECML! But if you are delayed, you would be entitled to claim compensation.

The NRCoT do have that clause purporting to exclude compensation when the timetable is changed, but as discussed (at length!) in other threads, I am highly doubtful over the enforceability of that clause in the context of a consumer contract.

Your entitlement to (a smaller sum of) compensation under the same EU Regulation (1371/2007) that gives you your right to re-routeing, is unaffected by what the NRCoT say. But as with recovering the cost of new tickets for a rebooked journey - you're likely to face an uphill battle getting what you're owed.

Of course we'll be more than happy to guide you through the process if you do need to escalate it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, that's going to be your best bet.

However it's fairly likely Euston will be closed and locked up, as none of the services from it - Avanti, LNR or LO - will be operating, and the Tube entrance is now outside.

 

[Laketop]

However it's fairly likely Euston will be closed and locked up, as none of the services from it - Avanti, LNR or LO - will be operating, and the Tube entrance is now outside.

I was hoping for it to be open, but alas, it has been announced it will be closed and Network Rail staff will be present. Though I assume they will not have the power to do anything and it will be a case of bringing Avanti again on the day. https://www.networkrailmediacentre....sed-this-saturday-due-to-train-drivers-strike

 

[Wallsendmag]

If you want to travel with LNER don't leave it too long to book

 

[Mainline421]

Honestly although I would still try turning up at Euston and tweeting Avanti on the day, most likely you'll probably end up having to pay for an Off-peak single at Kings Cross (GN TVMs or ticket office) and claim it back from Avanti. Worth seeing what staff at Kings Cross say as well, LNER probably should allow travel in theory under NRCoT

28.2 Where disruption prevents you from completing the journey for which your Ticket is valid and is being used, any Train Company will, where it reasonably can, provide you with alternative means of travel to your destination, or if necessary, provide overnight accommodation for you

 

[Wallsendmag]

In other words, 'not our train, not our problem'. That seems to be a very typical attitude of several LNER staff members at Newcastle station.

Is this disruption though?

 

[DanNCL]

Is this disruption though?

Maybe not in railway terminology but as far as the customer will be concerned anything that disrupts their journey is disruption.

 

[Watershed]

Is this disruption though?

In what definition does the cancellation of your train not count as 'disruption'?

 

[CyrusWuff]

The key phrase is "where it reasonably can". I suspect most TOCs would likely argue that they can't "reasonably" accommodate another operator's entire customer base. (Also one of the reasons why it's impractical to provide rail replacement buses during industrial action.)

That said, with the introduction of the "published timetable of the day" concept, they'd also possibly argue that there's no disruption because there are no trains scheduled to operate!

 

[Laketop]

If you want to travel with LNER don't leave it too long to book

In this situation I'm now in I would love to travel via LNER, though as far as I know I wouldn't be compensated if I booked anything until on the day, after finding out my train isn't running and after being told that there is nothing they can/will do. I'd very much like to do now to avoid those hoops but I suppose as a customer I still need to give them the benefit of the doubt/opportunity to do something.

Honestly although I would still try turning up at Euston and tweeting Avanti on the day, most likely you'll probably end up having to pay for an Off-peak single at Kings Cross (GN TVMs or ticket office) and claim it back from Avanti. Worth seeing what staff at Kings Cross say as well, LNER probably should allow travel in theory under NRCoT

Ultimately this will be the option I take and thereafter expend every available option. It is fortunate that the two stations are close enough to physically go there if nothing is possible at Euston.

I do appreciate everyone's advice given here so thank you for the time you have all taken to provide your input.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My inclination would be to buy said Off Peak Single now with a reservation. Consider the £10 fee to refund it if you don't need it an insurance policy. I can see LNER turning you away if they get too full, and asking GTR not to sell the tickets.

If you want to travel with LNER don't leave it too long to book

This reads like an insider's warning to me that there's a distinct chance that if you rock up on the day you won't be allowed to travel on LNER, and so the best you'll get from Avanti is a hotel.

 

[Watershed]

I'd very much like to do now to avoid those hoops but I suppose as a customer I still need to give them the benefit of the doubt/opportunity to do something.

If you already have it in writing from them that they're refusing to re-route you, and given it's been announced that Euston station will be closed, I see little point in going there and waiting to book until then. It's actually more likely to be counterproductive, I'd have thought.

My inclination would be to buy said Off Peak Single now with a reservation. Consider the £10 fee to refund it if you don't need it an insurance policy. I can see LNER turning you away if they get too full, and asking GTR not to sell the tickets.

Some retailers, such as Railsmartr, don't charge an admin fee for refunds.

The key phrase is "where it reasonably can". I suspect most TOCs would likely argue that they can't "reasonably" accommodate another operator's entire customer base. (Also one of the reasons why it's impractical to provide rail replacement buses during industrial action.)

That fact they can't accommodate everyone doesn't mean they can get away with doing nothing.

That said, with the introduction of the "published timetable of the day" concept, they'd also possibly argue that there's no disruption because there are no trains scheduled to operate!

The scandalous PToD is in no way referenced in condition 28. I think any argument that there are no trains means there's no disruption would be given short shrift by a judge.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Just to confirm that LNER will not be accepting Avanti tickets tomorrow.

 

[Haywain]

Now, if the owners of Avanti were operating a train company on the ECML who aren't striking and run to Edinburgh... oh!

 

[Bensonby]

Just to confirm that LNER will not be accepting Avanti tickets tomorrow.

Isn’t there a requirement for other operators to assist if a passenger is stranded and the TOC the passenger is booked with have cancelled with nothing else running?

 

[CyrusWuff]

Isn’t there a requirement for other operators to assist if a passenger is stranded and the TOC the passenger is booked with have cancelled with nothing else running?

Ticket acceptance can be declined if an operator can't accommodate it. In this case, LNER are only running one train an hour, alternating between York and Edinburgh (plus a single Leeds - Kings Cross and Kings Cross - Leeds journey).

All of those trains are showing as Sold Out in both Standard and First Class. Whether that's "all reservable seats have been" or "never opened for reservations" I couldn't say.

As such, it's highly likely that they'll be turning away their own passengers on capacity grounds, let alone another operator's.

 

[Haywain]

Isn’t there a requirement for other operators to assist if a passenger is stranded and the TOC the passenger is booked with have cancelled with nothing else running?

The operator of the last through train of the day from Kings Cross to Edinburgh is Lumo. I don’t see that you can be stranded before that.

 

[londonbridge]

I’m up in Sunderland for todays game, got an advance single on 5:30 Grand Central back to London, last LNER from Newcastle is apparently 17:59, if GC was cancelled for sone reason presumably they’d put us on the Lumo at 19:35? As by the time youd got from Sunderland to Newcastle after the game you’d probably miss the 17:59 anyway?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’m up in Sunderland for todays game, got an advance single on 5:30 Grand Central back to London, last LNER from Newcastle is apparently 17:59, if GC was cancelled for sone reason presumably they’d put us on the Lumo at 19:35? As by the time youd got from Sunderland to Newcastle after the game you’d probably miss the 17:59 anyway?

Very unlikely, it is a 5 car train and it will be full anyway. This is likely to be one where hotel accommodation will be the only choice if they can't get a bus in.

 

[londonbridge]

Fortunately the Grand Central is running as normal so I’m on the way home, but just wondered what they would have done if it had been cancelled was all.

 

[Starmill]

The operator of the last through train of the day from Kings Cross to Edinburgh is Lumo. I don’t see that you can be stranded before that.

If it's stated that you're not permitted to travel with Lumo or LNER with the existing ticket then I'd argue that's highly persuasive that you're stranded. It sounds like that's what's happened but perhaps the OP could clarify?

Ticket acceptance can be declined if an operator can't accommodate it. In this case, LNER are only running one train an hour, alternating between York and Edinburgh (plus a single Leeds - Kings Cross and Kings Cross - Leeds journey).

All of those trains are showing as Sold Out in both Standard and First Class. Whether that's "all reservable seats have been" or "never opened for reservations" I couldn't say.

As such, it's highly likely that they'll be turning away their own passengers on capacity grounds, let alone another operator's.

Of course this is very possible, but if Lumo, LNER, Grand Central TransPennine Express etc. all refuse any ticket acceptance then they would have been obliged to arrange road transport.

The key phrase is "where it reasonably can". I suspect most TOCs would likely argue that they can't "reasonably" accommodate another operator's entire customer base. (Also one of the reasons why it's impractical to provide rail replacement buses during industrial action.)

For clarity nobody has suggested blanket ticket acceptance or that the "entire customer base" is relevant here. It's actually a very small proportion of people because it is only those who meet both of the following criteria:
- booked for travel with Avanti West Coast before the strike was announced
- are unable to change their travel date or cancel their rail journey entirely for a refund

 

[Leisurefirst]

If it's stated that you're not permitted to travel with Lumo or LNER with the existing ticket then I'd argue that's highly persuasive that you're stranded. It sounds like that's what's happened but perhaps the OP could clarify?


Of course this is very possible, but if Lumo, LNER, Grand Central TransPennine Express etc. all refuse any ticket acceptance then they would have been obliged to arrange road transport.


For clarity nobody has suggested blanket ticket acceptance or that the "entire customer base" is relevant here. It's actually a very small proportion of people because it is only those who meet both of the following criteria:
- booked for travel with Avanti West Coast before the strike was announced
- are unable to change their travel date or cancel their rail journey entirely for a refund

I fall into those two last categories.
Booked Glasgow Central to Euston Advance before strike at £32.80 for the last service of the day.
Cannot come back early due to events booked and paid for on Friday night & Saturday morning and I have nowhere to stay after Saturday morning.
Bought Lumo £58.90 Advance for last service Edinburgh to King's Cross as a safeguard.
Together with Club 50 single at £11.20 from GLQ to EDB costing £70.10.
Have emailed Avanti asking whether they will compensate me the whole £70.10 extra or whether I have to claim £32.80 back from LNER (whom bought the original ticket from) and the £37.30 difference from them.
Not holding my breath for a reply.

 

[Starmill]

I fall into those two last categories.
Booked Glasgow Central to Euston Advance before strike at £32.80 for the last service of the day.
Cannot come back early due to events booked and paid for on Friday night & Saturday morning and I have nowhere to stay after Saturday morning.
Bought Lumo £58.90 Advance for last service Edinburgh to King's Cross as a safeguard.
Together with Club 50 single at £11.20 from GLQ to EDB costing £70.10.
Have emailed Avanti asking whether they will compensate me the whole £70.10 extra or whether I have to claim £32.80 back from LNER (whom bought the original ticket from) and the £37.30 difference from them.
Not holding my breath for a reply.

I would certainly say it's worth persisting with the claim for the full amount of the new tickets via the Ombudsman and a chargeback or Consumer Credit Act claim. It's pretty obvious they're required to cover the bill if they are asked to reroute you and they decide not to.

 

[Leisurefirst]

I would certainly say it's worth persisting with the claim for the full amount of the new tickets via the Ombudsman and a chargeback or Consumer Credit Act claim. It's pretty obvious they're required to cover the bill if they are asked to reroute you and they decide not to.

Thank you.
I have to say I didn't actually ask them to reroute me, I booked the alternative Lumo ticket straight away whilst they were still available with the intention of refunding if Avanti did run a service.
I just took it as a given from their website ("No services, here's a bus website link"!!!) that there would be no chance of acceptance elsewhere (which has been stated by the Lumo crew certainly this evening).
Their auto reply for emails states an upto 28 day window for replying so I wouldn't necessarily have received a reply in time either way.
Would this go against my claim?
Incidentally, I would be more than happy to receive a couple of free Standard tickets or one First Class one instead, which would possibly cost them less.

 

[Starmill]

Thank you.
I have to say I didn't actually ask them to reroute me, I booked the alternative Lumo ticket straight away whilst they were still available with the intention of refunding if Avanti did run a service.
I just took it as a given from their website ("No services, here's a bus website link"!!!) that there would be no chance of acceptance elsewhere (which has been stated by the Lumo crew certainly this evening).
Their auto reply for emails states an upto 28 day window for replying so I wouldn't necessarily have received a reply in time either way.
Would this go against my claim?
Incidentally, I would be more than happy to receive a couple of free Standard tickets or one First Class one instead, which would possibly cost them less.

It's possible that if you didn't give Avanti any opportunity whatsoever to organise alternative travel for you that it would undermine your claim. However, you may wish to argue that the statements on their website are clear evidence that they won't offer any rerouting. A straightforward way of avoiding the issue would be to send them a twitter direct message saying something like "Hi I've booked these tickets on this date but I see that you are no longer running my train, please would you be able to organise me alternative travel because I can't change the time of my trip." - their choice of reply will illuminate the process.

 

[Leisurefirst]

It's possible that if you didn't give Avanti any opportunity whatsoever to organise alternative travel for you that it would undermine your claim. However, you may wish to argue that the statements on their website are clear evidence that they won't offer any rerouting. A straightforward way of avoiding the issue would be to send them a twitter direct message saying something like "Hi I've booked these tickets on this date but I see that you are no longer running my train, please would you be able to organise me alternative travel because I can't change the time of my trip." - their choice of reply will illuminate the process.

Thank you

 

[Haywain]

Have emailed Avanti asking whether they will compensate me the whole £70.10 extra or whether I have to claim £32.80 back from LNER (whom bought the original ticket from) and the £37.30 difference from them.

I don’t think it would be unreasonable for Avanti to expect you to have applied for a refund of the unused ticket that you purchased through LNER.