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Quarantine

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WelshBluebird

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I’m sorry but this doesn’t pass the smell test for me either. 90% want people to quarantine in a hotel? 72% want people coming from (say) New Zealand to quarantine in a hotel? Are people misreading the questions, getting to “quarantine” and ignoring “in a hotel”, and answering on that basis? Do 90% of people think there are no more proportionate ways to beef up home quarantine? Most issues with upsides and downsides get a strongly balanced response; does 90% indicate people don’t view any downsides to this? If there is such incredibly strong support, why has no other country in Europe implemented this?

This isn’t about being in an echo chamber, it’s about questioning the premises that lead to these answers. Frankly my guess is the sort of person answering YouGov surveys isn’t doing much travelling and doesn’t want anyone else to do so either even if it benefits the economy.
I mean, you are making up a lot of things that that were not mentioned at all by the poll. Nowhere in the poll did it suggest those 90% who support the hotel quarantine idea also think that home quarantine could not be "beefed up". It would likely be that some of those people thought that home quarantine isn't enough, and some others thought that home quarantine in its current state (where you basically just get told to quarantine and that is it) isn't good enough, and some other opinions too - we just don't know, and given there was no question about "beefing up" home quarantine, how on earth can you take any kind of figure about that idea from it?

And clearly saying you support something does not also mean that you don't see any downsides to it at all - just the "upsides" matter to you more.

Sure - maybe the poll isn't reliable, who knows. But you can't just make up things that weren't mentioned in it for your own agenda.
 
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takno

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You have to remember this forum is very anti lockdown and anti the restrictions in place. Much much more so than the general population. So much so that as someone who is generally accepting (but not happy) of the restrictions, I find this section of the forum very hostile (and I've seen comments from others suggesting they feel the same). So a straw poll on this site probably wouldn't be valid either. Especially given what the demographics of this site probably are.
My point was very much that an internet straw poll is rubbish wherever it's done. I'm sorry you find this section of the forum hostile, but I'd say there's a pretty condescending tone your posts which I'm sure many others find quite irritating as well. Your default position appears very much that everybody here is a bit of a deluded idiot and you have deigned to come here and share with us the "facts". There are people here who are more knowledgeable, better read and more experienced on this topic than either you or I.
 

WelshBluebird

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My point was very much that an internet straw poll is rubbish wherever it's done. I'm sorry you find this section of the forum hostile, but I'd say there's a pretty condescending tone your posts which I'm sure many others find quite irritating as well. Your default position appears very much that everybody here is a bit of a deluded idiot and you have deigned to come here and share with us the "facts". There are people here who are more knowledgeable, better read and more experienced on this topic than either you or I.
Given the number of insane conspiracy theories floating about here (one from the other week about purposefully misdiagnosing flu as covid this winter, one from this week about purposefully planning on driving up false positive results in order to get more support for restrictions) and given the downright mad statements some people have made (basically "I don't know anyone who supports the restrictions so nobody must and any poll that claims people do support them must be a lit or a fraud") it is hard not to react like that sadly. I have never claimed I am much more knowledgeable or better read. That doesn't mean I can't call out false claims or conspiracy theories when I see them. Come on - do you really think GP's are on purpose telling people they have COVID when in reality they have flu in order to drive the COVID numbers up? Of course they aren't. If there is a degree of misdiagnosis going on then it will be by accident. There are a lot of similar comments too where something that is accidental or as a byproduct is jumped on by this forum as being evidence of a grand plan.
 

Cdd89

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Sure - maybe the poll isn't reliable, who knows. But you can't just make up things that weren't mentioned in it for your own agenda.
I completely agree, and that was my point! If we can’t infer what people mean by their choice then it’s a worthless poll. Eg if people strongly feel people should quarantine, and the only survey concerns hotels, they may be supportive of it, even though that support is for “quarantine” not for “hotel”.

The exception (which I agree I didn’t delineate very well!) was the point about those supporting hotel quarantine for all arrivals also supporting quarantining arrivals from New Zealand. I bet you wouldn’t get 72% support for that question. But logically, you should, because “all” means “all”.
 

Watershed

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If there is such incredibly strong support, why has no other country in Europe implemented this?
You could say that about many of the restrictions that have been introduced (does it really make a justifiable difference to restrict bubbles to single-adult households?).

Like everything to do with the reaction to this disease, it is purely a political decision. You'll always be able to find "the science" that justifies the decision that's reached.

There is no clear correlation between the severity of restrictions and the number of deaths or cases. There are many other confounding factors that, again, mean that any outcome can be claimed as a "success" and as having been "because of our strict measures".
 

Ediswan

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The exception (which I agree I didn’t delineate very well!) was the point about those supporting hotel quarantine for all arrivals also supporting quarantining arrivals from New Zealand. I bet you wouldn’t get 72% support for that question. But logically, you should, because “all” means “all”.
New Zealand is awkward as an example. There never have been any commercial direct flights to the UK, so any arrivals will be 'from' a third country.
 

takno

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Given the number of insane conspiracy theories floating about here (one from the other week about purposefully misdiagnosing flu as covid this winter, one from this week about purposefully planning on driving up false positive results in order to get more support for restrictions) and given the downright mad statements some people have made (basically "I don't know anyone who supports the restrictions so nobody must and any poll that claims people do support them must be a lit or a fraud") it is hard not to react like that sadly. I have never claimed I am much more knowledgeable or better read. That doesn't mean I can't call out false claims or conspiracy theories when I see them. Come on - do you really think GP's are on purpose telling people they have COVID when in reality they have flu in order to drive the COVID numbers up? Of course they aren't. If there is a degree of misdiagnosis going on then it will be by accident. There are a lot of similar comments too where something that is accidental or as a byproduct is jumped on by this forum as being evidence of a grand plan.
No, I don't think that GPs are purposefully mis-diagnosing flu and, with the greatest of respect, I don't think very many other people on here do either. Those claims were very effectively contested in a kinder way by people who have less of an apparent axe to grind. There's a difference between respectfully saying that a specific point is unlikely, and just constantly picking on the more out-there suggestions that come up as evidence for your theory that this place is entirely full of hostile crazies. If you're going to pick on specific fringe ideas like the flu hypothesis, then you've got to concede that plenty of the stuff emanating from SAGE scientists and government ministers is actually even less credible and well thought-out. An attitude that something is sensible just because a government-appointed scientist says so really doesn't square with the pointless mess they are making of everything at the moment
 

philosopher

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You could say that about many of the restrictions that have been introduced (does it really make a justifiable difference to restrict bubbles to single-adult households?).

Like everything to do with the reaction to this disease, it is purely a political decision. You'll always be able to find "the science" that justifies the decision that's reached.

There is no clear correlation between the severity of restrictions and the number of deaths or cases. There are many other confounding factors that, again, mean that any outcome can be claimed as a "success" and as having been "because of our strict measures".
I think the issue in the UK is that a large percentage, perhaps the majority of the population think eliminating Covid is feasible. This is because a number of scientists have advocated such a strategy because the UK is an island and so it is possible because another island nation, New Zealand has done so. This is why polls consistently are in favour of things like lockdowns, hotel quarantines and other travel restrictions. There has been very little pushback by politicans and other scientists against the feasibility of a ZeroCovid strategy, hence it has gained significant traction among the population.

In continental Europe I suspect the idea of eliminating Covid to scientists and the public would be seen as ludicrous as it would obvious that you cannot quarantine all arrivals across busy land borders. Hence there people may be more accepting of the fact that Covid is here to stay.
 

island

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I’m sorry but this doesn’t pass the smell test for me either. 90% want people to quarantine in a hotel? 72% want people coming from (say) New Zealand to quarantine in a hotel? Are people misreading the questions, getting to “quarantine” and ignoring “in a hotel”, and answering on that basis? Do 90% of people think there are no more proportionate ways to beef up home quarantine? Most issues with upsides and downsides get a strongly balanced response; does 90% indicate people don’t view any downsides to this? If there is such incredibly strong support, why has no other country in Europe implemented this?

This isn’t about being in an echo chamber, it’s about questioning the premises that lead to these answers. Frankly my guess is the sort of person answering YouGov surveys isn’t doing much travelling and doesn’t want anyone else to do so either even if it benefits the economy.
Most people don’t mind supporting restrictions for “other people”.
 

kristiang85

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The Telegraph writes a fantastic evisceration of the travel bans / quarantine rules and the justifications behind them: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/news/16-reasons-travel-ban-makes-no-sense/

The Government is about to make non-essential travel illegal, perhaps until July. Here are 16 reasons why the ban makes no sense. It could have been more.

1. We’ve vaccinated almost half the population​

Back in January, Matt Hancock told us to “cry freedom” when the most vulnerable had been vaccinated. Well, now they have. We’ve jabbed more than 30 million arms, giving protection to a cohort that accounts for 99 per cent of Covid deaths. It puts the efforts of the rest of Europe in the shade. However, instead of unlocking our economy and returning to the people their stolen freedoms, the Government is using the success of our vaccination drive against us. If the vaccine isn’t enough to set us free, what is?

2. Other countries with speedy vaccine rollouts are welcoming back tourists​

To find a sane use of vaccines to reestablish normality, one need only look to the Seychelles. It has nearly vaccinated its entire population, and will reopen its borders to all tourists on March 25, even those who haven’t had a jab, with no requirement to quarantine. The UK, meanwhile, almost perversely, still has the Seychelles on its travel “red list”, meaning direct flights and visitors are banned, while returning Britons must pay £1,750 to spend 10 nights in a quarantine hotel. The UAE and Chile, two more vaccine winners, are also on the red list. It defies logic.

3. It’s not even a proper travel ban​

Not everyone will be banned from leaving the UK under the new rules. There are exceptions for workers, wedding and funeral guests, volunteers, elite sportsmen (and their entourage), anyone seeking to buy or rent a property, students… the list goes on. Every day, thousands of people, from businessmen to Premier League footballers, will still be able to come and go as they please – offering plenty of opportunities for Brazilian, South African, or even Outer Mongolian mutants to “wash up on our shores”, in the parlance of our Dear Leader. It’s hardly a watertight barrier.

I do not support this GDR-style violation of our basic freedom of movement, but these rules will neither stop imported cases, nor return to ordinary people the right to see loved ones who live overseas, or enjoy a much-needed holiday. They are the worst of both worlds.

4. We cannot close our borders – we’re not NZ​

“So let’s copy New Zealand and Australia and put all arrivals in a hotel quarantine,” cry the Zero Covid fanatics. It really shouldn’t be necessary to point out that New Zealand is the most isolated major country on Earth, lying more than 1,000 miles from its nearest neighbour: isolated Australia. It has a population under 5m, where ours is 66m (Australia’s is 25m). Both countries closed their borders before Covid was widespread; even if we shut ours back in March 2020, it would probably have been far too late (this was the perfectly valid reason given by Chris Whitty). And our economies are very different.

“We might be an island, but we also have one of the most globalised economies in the world,” explains Matthew Lynn. “Australia’s biggest export is iron ore. New Zealand’s biggest is concentrated milk. The UK, however, is very different. We have the City, which depends on deal-makers flying into and out of the country every day. We are home to some of the world’s most global, connected companies, from Unilever, to Shell to GlaxoSmithKline and HSBC. We have 10,000 trucks a day moving through the ports, delivering goods around the country. We are the home of the Premier League, the world’s most popular, and lucrative, sporting tournament, with its galaxy of international stars. We are a hub for global film-making, with Netflix and Disney + opening up expensive studios in the Home Counties. From professional services, to tech start-ups, to banking, engineering and finance, the British economy depends uniquely on the free flow of ideas and people. Some of that can be done on Zoom, but not much.”

5. The variants are already here, and doubtlessly under-reported​

The UK has found 260 cases of the South African variant inside its own borders, and it is inevitably under-detected. They arrived despite the strict controls already in place (a ban on holidays, “stay at home” orders, etc). So why does the Government think extending these travel restrictions will make a difference?

6. And the virus will mutate here anyway​

Professor David Livermore, a microbiologist at the University of East Anglia, explains: “The B.1.1.7 UK variant, which gained traction during Lockdown 2, has multiple mutations, one of which gives an N501Y substitution in the spike protein targeted by vaccines. This increases transmissibility but doesn’t undermine antibody binding and vaccine efficacy. Two further variants – the South African and the Brazilian – have additional mutations, giving a more concerning E484K (glutamate to lysine) replacement in the spike protein.

“This flips a negative charge to positive and reduces binding of the antibodies raised by the various vaccines. Clinically, it was associated with failure of the AstraZeneca vaccine in a small (2,000-patient) trial in South Africa and reduced efficacy of the yet-to-be-licensed NovaVax product from 89 per cent to 60 per cent.

“But E484K mutations have emerged independently here, notably around Bristol, and will continue to do so. Currently the Zoe app suggests 74,000 people are infected with Covid-19 in the UK. Each of these will be carrying and producing billions of virus particles. With these numbers, domestic generation of mutants will outweigh imports.”

7. The virus will not stop mutating​

For how long can one retain border controls if the goal is to protect against mutant variants? Given that the virus isn’t going anywhere, and that viruses will always mutate, the only logical answer to that is “forever”. Granted, more vaccinated people means fewer chances for the virus to mutate – but this doesn’t seem to be a factor in the Government’s thinking. If it was, then why are the Seychelles and the UAE still on the red list?

8. The vaccines probably prevent death with all known variants​

Politicians’ wide-eyed fears over new variants are not replicated within the scientific community. That’s because, while they render the vaccines less effective, all the available evidence suggests that both the Pfizer and AstraZeneca jabs will still prevent serious illness and death. Which, after all, is what matters. We’re not going to ban travel to stop cold symptoms, are we?

9. And we can tweak them​

Professor Livermore explains: “Vaccines will improve matters but won’t bring us to the unreachable mirage of Zero Covid. We have only ever eradicated one virus, smallpox, and it was far less clever and adaptable than Sars-Cov-2.

“As Matt Hancock said recently, our expectation should be to live with Covid-19, as with influenza, which causes 10,000-30,000 UK deaths annually. We will likely need to tweak vaccines to address circulating variants, perhaps annually.

“This will be easier than for influenza because coronaviruses are not so prone to sudden massive recombination events and because mRNA vaccines – a real breakthrough – can be chemically manufactured and adapted, whereas flu vaccines begin with the tedious task of growing the virus in eggs.”

10. 3.8 million people in Britain could lose their jobs​

Too much of the debate surrounding restrictions over the last year (be they on travel or otherwise) has focused solely on the impact they will have on Covid case rates. But there is far more to life than reducing the risk of dying; there’s something precious known as “quality of life”.

Ban travel and the quality of life for millions will plummet. According to VisitBritain, the UK “will have a tourism industry worth over £257 billion by 2025 – just under 10 per cent of GDP and supporting almost 3.8 million jobs, which is around 11 per cent of the total number.” Not if we persist with travel restrictions we won’t. Millions will be put out of work, and the blow to our GDP will bring down the standard of living for everyone.

11. Friendships will be sacrificed, and families kept apart​

Estimates vary, but as many as half of Britons have family or close friends living overseas. Yet the travel ban offers no opportunity to see them. Are we supposed to simply abandon these relationships indefinitely?

The leading human rights barrister Adam Wagner says: “These new rules suggest a strange disregard for people who do not live with their partners, or adults who have not seen their families for a year.

“The courts have, to date, been keen not to undermine difficult policy decisions made by the Government. It is unlikely that they would conclude the Government has no power to impose these regulations, even by secondary legislation which only needs a rubber stamp by parliament.

“But it will be interesting to see how the Government argues that it is proportionate to ban spouses reuniting whilst their friends can lawfully travel to visit an estate agent in Florida.”

12. It will ruin our mental health​

A holiday is certain to sooth your frazzled state of mind after the best part of a year under house arrest – boosting your immune system in the process. Yet the mental health benefits of travel are strangely ignored, even ridiculed. Express such feelings on Twitter and you may well be told to stop moaning, or even “man up”. Yet the evidence is mounting that we’re facing a mental health crisis in Britain – how can people be so oblivious?

Dr Charles Levinson, writing for Telegraph Travel, said: “What I find so frustrating is the lack of any awareness at what these policies have done and what suggestions of further closures do to people’s mental health.

“Industries have been decimated, businesses destroyed and countless livelihoods lost – that matters. Despite the financial help on offer, I know London hoteliers whose lives have been torn apart. Bills still need to be paid and hearing that international travel has no future for the foreseeable future will fill them with dread.

“We should embrace the opportunities that our vaccine programme has given us and start to tentatively reopen our borders. Let’s reunite families, kick-start our domestic tourism sector and give millions of people something to look forward to.”

13. It’s against the European Convention on Human Rights​

The world has ridden roughshod over the European Convention on Human Rights for more than a year, and complaints have been few and far between. Perhaps it’s time to wake up and smell the vile stench of authoritarianism.

Article 13 states:

1. Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.

2. Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.


Given that people who have tested negative for Covid are still being forced to spend time in quarantine hotels (and pay handsomely for the privilege), one might also cite Article 9: “No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.”

14. It’s against all pre-Covid pandemic plans​

The WHO’s established pandemic preparedness plan, published as recently as October 2019, makes for quite the eye-opener. Under “not recommended in any circumstances” you’ll find “border closures” and “entry and exit screening”, as well as “quarantine of exposed individuals” (let alone healthy and unexposed ones), and “contact tracing”. Sadly, such level-headed advice, the result of centuries of scientific study, was abandoned in 2020, when the world (with a couple of notable exceptions) decided to follow the lead of the Chinese Communist Party.

15. The rest of Europe is waiting to reopen, and we’ll look pretty ridiculous​

I take some solace from the fact that European countries such as Greece, Spain and Turkey are chomping at the bit to get tourism restarted. Turkey has even said Britons will be welcome this summer without needing a Covid test (let alone a vaccine). We’re going to look rather silly when the rest of the world is enjoying their summer holidays and we’re still hiding under the bed because of new variant fears.

16. It’s not proportionate to the threat of Covid​

Much of what we’re doing would make sense if we were dealing with a global pandemic of, say, Ebola. But a disease with an infection fatality rate in the region of 0.5 per cent, for which we have an effective vaccine? We ridiculed the EU for using the dreaded precautionary principle to halt AstraZeneca jabs over blood clot fears, but we’re doing the same. We’re threatening to abolish travel indefinitely, a move that will cause mental anguish and economic devastation, “just in case”. It’s insane.

It’s time to draw a line under our Covid errors and seize the benefits from the one thing we did well: our vaccine rollout. By all means jab a few more arms, if you really want to exercise caution, but then return to us our freedom, and the old normal.
 

Ediswan

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BBC R4 yesterday had a piece about hotel quarantine. Towards they end they put two questions to the government (from memory):
* How many people have tested positive for covid while in hotel quarantine ?
* How many people have absconded from hotel quarantine ?
In both cases, the response was that no information was available.
 

Bantamzen

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BBC R4 yesterday had a piece about hotel quarantine. Towards they end they put two questions to the government (from memory):
* How many people have tested positive for covid while in hotel quarantine ?
* How many people have absconded from hotel quarantine ?
In both cases, the response was that no information was available.
Well using current case & test data, 166,384,182 tests had been made with 4,452,756 positive results (I assume there is no duplication here). So that's about a 2.68% positive test rate, not very big at all. So unless the virus is somehow scarier & nastier the moment you cross the English Channel, the rates of infection from quarantined passengers is going to be in the same range. Which means that between them, testing & quarantine is becoming a very expensive, and frankly wasteful series of processes that is not making a huge difference, especially when lined up alongside what is becoming an obviously far more effective vaccination programme.

I can almost hear the sound of awkward silences and uncomfortable shuffling of feet.
 

brad465

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I mean, it's a tough competition for which aspect of this pandemic response has been the most Orwellian, but this one reported by the Mail is up there:

1621461043745.png
 

kristiang85

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Again, I presume my hard earned taxes are paying for this? Whilst people get stabbed on a weekly basis in our cities?
 

Cdd89

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So officials are going to have an in-person identity-confirming face-to-face chat with the person who is supposedly so incredibly harmful to society that they are quarantining from it for 10 days subject to regular in person checks?

Are they going to be “knocking on doors” of those who have actually tested positive and are self isolating, and who are a confirmed risk— or just foreigners/returnees who have tested negative at least twice?
 

Bantamzen

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Priti Patel is a stark raving lunatic who needs locking up & the key throwing away. I guess she sees this as the new "covid marshal" role, but does knocking on someone's door and not getting an answer mean they are not at home? They might be asleep, taking a bath, cooking food or just not hearing the knock. And worse still, what if the marshals don't bother and just make it up? Who are going to police the "holiday police"? This kind of crap needs knocking on the head.
 

kristiang85

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Priti Patel is a stark raving lunatic who needs locking up & the key throwing away. I guess she sees this as the new "covid marshal" role, but does knocking on someone's door and not getting an answer mean they are not at home? They might be asleep, taking a bath, cooking food or just not hearing the knock. And worse still, what if the marshals don't bother and just make it up? Who are going to police the "holiday police"? This kind of crap needs knocking on the head.

Indeed. I'm hoping that for any charges to be brought, they'd need video evidence of them knocking at least three times in one day. I've even missed people knocking at the door when I've been doing the washing up.

I much prefer the polish system where you have an app that notifies you to do a geotagged selfie at home within ten minutes of recieving it. If you miss a couple then you get a knock. Then people who don't want to do that can get the old school check ups, but it would vastly reduce resource costs.

But I also think once most are fully vaccinated nobody should go through this nonsense...
 

island

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So officials are going to have an in-person identity-confirming face-to-face chat with the person who is supposedly so incredibly harmful to society that they are quarantining from it for 10 days subject to regular in person checks?

Are they going to be “knocking on doors” of those who have actually tested positive and are self isolating, and who are a confirmed risk— or just foreigners/returnees who have tested negative at least twice?
But the officers will be wearing masks, which provide a magical level of protection from infection. :rolleyes:
 

Wuffle

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Sadly politicians have been advised by the Behavioural Scientists on the SAGE committees and it's all getting very silly now
 

Crossover

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Priti Patel is a stark raving lunatic who needs locking up & the key throwing away. I guess she sees this as the new "covid marshal" role, but does knocking on someone's door and not getting an answer mean they are not at home? They might be asleep, taking a bath, cooking food or just not hearing the knock. And worse still, what if the marshals don't bother and just make it up? Who are going to police the "holiday police"? This kind of crap needs knocking on the head.
Bit like the T&T calls - I missed 3 or 4 on one day because I was asleep when they rang!
 

Bikeman78

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Bit like the T&T calls - I missed 3 or 4 on one day because I was asleep when they rang!
I've no idea what number they call from and don't tend to answer calls from unknown numbers. Do they leave a message?
 

Crossover

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I've no idea what number they call from and don't tend to answer calls from unknown numbers. Do they leave a message?
It was an 0330 number, I recall, and yes they did usually leave voicemails. You can't call them back so they just keep trying about every 2 hours :lol:
 

PeterY

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I've managed to avoid T&T by not giving out my phone number. I think it's a waste of time and money, money that could've been spent better elsewhere.
 

Simon11

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I've managed to avoid T&T by not giving out my phone number. I think it's a waste of time and money, money that could've been spent better elsewhere.

I pretend to take a picture and walk past the T&T requirements. Been doing it for nearly a year without issue and people don't really care.

So rather pointless and highly doubt people would isolate after getting told by T&T after spending just an hour at the local pub garden.....
 

Skimpot flyer

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I pretend to take a picture and walk past the T&T requirements. Been doing it for nearly a year without issue and people don't really care.

So rather pointless and highly doubt people would isolate after getting told by T&T after spending just an hour at the local pub garden.....
I checked in to a KFC last Monday. The leader of our group handled the QR code, logging in as Bill Gates on 07666 666 666
 
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