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Quarantine

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Bantamzen

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I flew out to Zante a couple of weeks ago, had to fill in an online form before travelling, told I wouldn't be allowed on the plane if it hadn't been done. I was asked if i'd done it when checking in at Leeds Bradford, but didn't need to show any evidence.
Upon arrival at Zante we had the usual passport checks, then a second check immediately after which consisted of me showing my QR code document (it wasn't scanned or anything) to which a glance was given and no more than that.

Then around the corner they were plucking random people out for testing, and when I say random I mean very few, estimate 5 people off our full 189 passenger flight. The tests were carried out at a table behind a makeshift curtain.

Don't kid yourself that other countries are doing things so much better than we are, as in my experience Zante airport was paying lip service to the whole episode. No distancing for passport control, no distancing for security, no distancing for check-in, or luggage collection etc......all was just the same as it always is, apart from having to wear masks.

On the way back again we were told we had to fill in a passenger locator form on the UK Gov website, and this had to be done no more than 48 hours before return. Again, cue form filling for my family of five, told we needed to show the form and QR code at the airport on arrival....we were all ready when we reached border control at LBA, only to be told by the officer that "there no need to bother with that".......

OK so they are not testing everyone, but they are still doing more than here.

Is there loads of testing capacity? Routine testing in care homes has been put back.
Are people suggesting an airport testing system would replace restrictions - ie reopen flights to Spain?

Says right now:
UK testing capacity = 350k
Tests processed = never once over 200k

So, that's at least 800 Boeing 737's (like the one I came back from Prague on yesterday) worth of tests not being used

So on the face of it there is capacity for airports. If so it needs implementing ASAP to replace quarantine for a lot of countries.
 
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big_rig

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I think it's more likely that the capacity figure is just completely manipulated nonsense than anything else. It's probably the number of swabs they've got in stock, or doesn't account for the machines getting jammed every half hour or there not being enough trained staff or something

From the website. I don't think there is a co-ordinated misinformation campaign amongst all public and private testing facilities, but that the number of people who need or want a test for any reason with the level of virus circulation over the last few months is just what it is. In the absence of more virus we have rustled up everyone with any possible desire or need for a test and increasing this figure would require something like randomly sending them to 100,000 more people a day - this might or might not generate a few hundred cases each day but the cost of doing so is not zero. I don't know what the true cost of processing a test is but if say 99.7% of them are negative then the cost of randomly identifying a few more would be serious.

Coronavirus tests are processed in many laboratories around the UK. Projected laboratory capacity is an estimate of the number of tests each lab can process each day based on the availability of staff, chemical reagents and other resources required. These estimates are made locally by the labs themselves, aggregated and published weekly by the Department for Heath and Social Care
 

Meerkat

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Says right now:
UK testing capacity = 350k
Tests processed = never once over 200k

So, that's at least 800 Boeing 737's (like the one I came back from Prague on yesterday) worth of tests not being used
Firstly the testing capacity is spread right across the country and will have buffers everywhere in case of surges.
secondly 150k is not going to cover air travel, the tunnel, and the ports.
And lastly i would rather that spare capacity was kept in reserve for surges rather than used to let some people go on holiday, exporting money out of our struggling economy and increasing their infection risk
 

scotrail158713

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Also worth noting that test times seem to have got a lot worse in Scotland since the schools went back, with the natural September spike in various ailments causing lots of people to seek tests
Has it? I know people who have been tested recently, in the morning, and got their result the same evening.
 

takno

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Has it? I know people who have been tested recently, in the morning, and got their result the same evening.
I think again it depends on whether you can use a drive in centre or not. I know a couple of people who've waited a week for mail-in results, by which point they're a bit useless
 

scotrail158713

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I think again it depends on whether you can use a drive in centre or not. I know a couple of people who've waited a week for mail-in results, by which point they're a bit useless
Ah ok, that makes sense. Come to think of it I think these people all used a drive through test centre.
 

Bantamzen

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Firstly the testing capacity is spread right across the country and will have buffers everywhere in case of surges.
secondly 150k is not going to cover air travel, the tunnel, and the ports.
And lastly i would rather that spare capacity was kept in reserve for surges rather than used to let some people go on holiday, exporting money out of our struggling economy and increasing their infection risk

Well I would rather have a consistent policy, instead of one flailing around all over the place. And if airport testing could reduce the need for quarantine, then that can only be good. Because you don't actually get to tell people how & where to spend their money. As time goes on more & more people will start to travel, however without a testing regime it will be primarily those who can afford to quarantine that do so, which in time will create unrest.

The other thing that you forget is that tourism is not a one way street, not only are we missing out on foreign tourism but a lot of money comes back from abroad from people & companies supporting tourism.
 

Meerkat

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The other thing that you forget is that tourism is not a one way street, not only are we missing out on foreign tourism but a lot of money comes back from abroad from people & companies supporting tourism.
The airport testing would involve quarantine until a second test was cleared, so still wouldn’t entice foreign tourists.
 

Meerkat

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Not if it was a 90 minute one, as are being trialled right now.
Does the 90 minute one pick up those who got infected within the last few days? Because normal tests don’t - hence the need to do a second one a few days later.
 

takno

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Does the 90 minute one pick up those who got infected within the last few days? Because normal tests don’t - hence the need to do a second one a few days later.
The 90 minute ones have a slightly lower sensitivity generally. They're great for regular testing because you can do loads more people more often, and the lower sensitivity is made up for in the speed of results. They are also useful at the airport because you can get people from the riskier countries to hang around for an hour or two, rather than getting on all sorts of public transport home.

In terms of needing the second test, no they wouldn't remove that need, but that only really applies in places like New Zealand, where you have as-near-as-dammit zero cases and want to keep it that way. We are just trying to get the risk from people who have been in (possibly) slightly more risky countries down to the same risk profile as if they'd stayed at home. If you do a single test at the airport you'll catch a large majority of cases, and for the rest of the cases we just fall back on track and trace, the same as if they'd stayed at home.
 

Baxenden Bank

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Once these 90 minute spit tests are introduced, it's a no brainer. Test at the airport, go home, test again 3 days later and if both are negative, off you go. And the spit tests will give a far more accurate picture, as they will tell if you have full-blown covid that can be transmitted, not some fragment of DNA of little consequence.
Better still, test on departure. The results will then be available by the time the plane lands (in most cases and depends on testing capacity being available at the departure point). Isolate passengers with cases in airport hotels (they can't be all that busy at the moment) until the second test.

Either there is a point in testing / isolating, or there isn't. In which case do it properly or don't do it, as applicable.
 

Bantamzen

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Does the 90 minute one pick up those who got infected within the last few days? Because normal tests don’t - hence the need to do a second one a few days later.

Probably not, but then if the 90 minute test doesn't pick up recent days, and neither does the regular then doesn't this suggest that the normal one should be done twice? And then what if someone gets home, tests negative, goes to the pub, catches it (just one scenario)? You wouldn't pick that one up either. So really by that logic all tests should be doubled up, which they aren't. So unless someone is coming back where hundreds of thousands are walking the streets coughing as a result of the virus, then the risks remain pretty small even if infection rates are a bit higher. Which I why I think quarantine measures are way over the top, along with lots of others.

Better still, test on departure. The results will then be available by the time the plane lands (in most cases and depends on testing capacity being available at the departure point). Isolate passengers with cases in airport hotels (they can't be all that busy at the moment) until the second test.

Either there is a point in testing / isolating, or there isn't. In which case do it properly or don't do it, as applicable.

In honestly I don't think there is. You can travel to an area of the UK with higher rates than many places abroad and face no sanctions, this all centres around the belief that sitting on a plane for a few hours will see everyone effected if one person walks on with it.
 

Meerkat

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If there is testing capacity for an extra 1m tests a week I think it would be better used screening every care home, high risk worker (get driver Training going again.....), and then offices that need re-opening, or mass testing wherever there are high case areas in the Uk.....
 

PHILIPE

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This seems to be a rather disturbing story and, perhaps, typical of many young people today who choose to ignore COVID advice.



Pubs in Maesteg deep cleaned after 'returning Zante holidaymakers with coronavirus symptoms went out drinking'
It is claimed the individuals had returned to Wales from the Greek island of Zante, which has seen a recent increase in coronavirus cases
A number of pubs and establishments in Maesteg are being deep cleaned after claims on social media that people who recently returned from Zante with Covid-19 symptoms had been drinking there over the weekend.
It's believed the individuals had returned to Wales from the Greek island of Zante, which has seen a recent increase in coronavirus cases.
A Bridgend County Borough Council spokesman told WalesOnline: “We have been made aware of social media stories circulating of individuals in the Maesteg area who have returned from Zante and who are potentially showing Covid-19 symptoms.
“All passengers who were on the TUI flight to Wales from the Greek island have been told to self-isolate and undergo a test within the next 48 hours.
“Anyone who may believe they have come into contact with individuals who have returned from Zante must be alert to the signs of symptoms of Covid-19."
The council said it's Shared Regulatory Services would be in touch with the establishments where it was alleged these individuals were out over the weekend.

Maesteg Councillor Ross Thomas said he had not been informed of an incident by Public Health Wales or the local authority as of Tuesday evening but was aware that some local pubs were contacting customers directly to inform them of the situation
.
 
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Mag_seven

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Pubs in Maesteg deep cleaned after 'returning Zante holidaymakers with coronavirus symptoms went out drinking'
.

Looks like we are now going to have media witch-hunts against people who may or may not have the virus - a worrying development.
 

Bantamzen

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This seems to be a rather disturbing story and, perhaps, typical of many young people today who choose to ignore COVID advice.



Pubs in Maesteg deep cleaned after 'returning Zante holidaymakers with coronavirus symptoms went out drinking'
.

Hmm, not sure about this one. Lots of gaps, and way too much social media speculation to make this anything like credible. Were these people really out drinking, were they on that flight, why didn't the pubs concerned contact the health services? This is what happens when social media tries to police.
 

jtuk

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Some good news in that someone's actually bringing a legal challenge regarding this:

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1301839108042641408.html
This judicial review is on similar grounds to that brought by BA, Easyjet and Ryanair, that was withdrawn after the government announced it would introduce 'air bridges', which it did through amending the IT Regulations and adding Schedule A1 (the 'safe list' of countries).

The judicial review, which challenges the amendment to the Regulations adding Croatia in the alternative, are as follows:

(1)There is insufficient scientific evidence to establish that the legislation is necessary to protect public health and it is therefore unlawful (ultra vires) under the Public Health Act;

(2)Indiscriminate quarantine is a violation of the right to liberty under Article 5 of the European Convention on Human Rights and does not fall within limited exceptions as not every person returning from an affected country is infected or potentially infected;

(3)It is a disproportionate breach of Article 5 even if it could fall within the above exception; and also a breach of the right to a private and family life (Article 8);

(4)It is irrational and disproportionate generally;

(5)(Alternatively) there is no policy behind the addition or removal of countries from the ‘safe list’ and no scientific evidence to support an arbitrary limit of 20 cases per 100,000; and

(6)(Alternatively) there is no scientific evidence justifying removing Croatia (and Austria and Trinidad and Tobago) from the safe list in the latest amendment.

The Claimants are anonymous for reasons set out in the Grounds and I am instructed directly.
 
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Huntergreed

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Even Shapps seems to be a bit annoyed/shocked with Scotland’s quarantine introduction:

Differences in UK quarantine rules are "confusing" for travellers, Grant Shapps has admitted, as the four nations take varying approaches to countries with rising Covid-19 cases.

The transport secretary acknowledged people's frustrations, as Scotland and Wales asked arrivals from Portugal and parts of Greece to isolate, but England and Northern Ireland held off...


Mr Shapps told BBC Breakfast the difference in quarantine rules was similar to the way lockdown had been applied across the UK.

..."It is similar, unfortunately, with the quarantining where we look at the data and then we do speak, but, I'm afraid, quite often come to slightly different outcomes, which I appreciate is confusing for people," he said.

He described Portugal as being on a "borderline", adding that "the opinion of England and Northern Ireland is that it did not justify quarantine this week"...

...
Mr Shapps told BBC Radio 4's Today programme Scotland "sort of jumped the gun" by introducing restrictions for arrivals from the whole of Greece.

"I'm very keen and do try to coordinate... with the other administrations so we can both announce at the same time, and ideally both announce the same things, and this week that didn't work out," he said.

The seven-day infection rate in Portugal has increased from 15.3 to 23 per 100,000 people, above the threshold of 20.

(https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54022411)
 

furlong

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After the first Judicial Review (by some airlines) was abandoned, a solicitor who wishes to remain anonymous has picked up the baton.

End the Quarantine

Who am I?

I am a UK solicitor and businessman with two school-aged children. Upon return from our summer holiday in Croatia we have in simple language been placed under house arrest (now known as quarantine).

My case

Like many other holidaymakers, business people and other travellers, our lives have been significantly affected by this policy. Additionally, many people have been put off travelling and this is destroying the travel industry both here and abroad. Accordingly, we have decided to challenge these regulations.

Summary by Joshua Rozenberg
The claimant, who has asked not to be named, argues that the government’s international travel regulations amount to unlawful “house arrest”. He is seeking judicial review as well as claiming damages for false imprisonment and breach of his human rights.
 

johnnychips

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Can anybody make any sense of this?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54031912
Coronavirus testing at airports may give a "false sense of security", Prime Minister Boris Johnson has said, after suggestions it could be used to cut quarantine times for travellers.

Mr Johnson said testing on arrival would only identify 7% of virus cases.

It comes after a senior Tory MP backed calls from the struggling aviation sector to introduce airport testing.

Former Brexit Secretary David Davis said testing could cut quarantine times to "less than five days".

But speaking during a visit to Solihull, the prime minister rejected Mr Davis's comments, saying: "The quarantine system that we have has got to be an important part of our repertoire, of our toolbox, in fighting Covid."

Mr Johnson said while he understood "the difficulties" the airline industry was facing, "93% of the time you could have a real false sense of security, a false sense of confidence when you arrive and take a test.
 
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trainophile

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I still want to know how it was established so quickly that there were seven passengers who tested positive after landing in Cardiff on returning from Zante. If they were not tested at the airport, was there a track and trace system involved?
 

Domh245

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I think the point he's making is that if you fly back having been infected only a day or two previously, a spit test would give you the all clear despite the fact you had it. It's why I think the prospect of shortening the quarantine is possible by using these (if after a week you can produce a negative test or two then you're allowed to end the quarantine early), but testing on arrival isn't - it'll either show that you have it, or that you don't have it in sufficient quantity to give a positive test at that moment.
 

Meerkat

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I still want to know how it was established so quickly that there were seven passengers who tested positive after landing in Cardiff on returning from Zante. If they were not tested at the airport, was there a track and trace system involved?
is that the one where people form Estonia that the group had met on holiday tested positive and contacted the Welsh guys to get themselves tested?
 

Bletchleyite

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I still want to know how it was established so quickly that there were seven passengers who tested positive after landing in Cardiff on returning from Zante. If they were not tested at the airport, was there a track and trace system involved?

Yes. I don't know the specifics, but what will have happened is one person tested positive, so T&T found out who was on the plane and tested them. Though I'm surprised they weren't just instructed to isolate for 14 days as that's the usual modus operandi.
 

johnnychips

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I think the point he's making is that if you fly back having been infected only a day or two previously, a spit test would give you the all clear despite the fact you had it. It's why I think the prospect of shortening the quarantine is possible by using these (if after a week you can produce a negative test or two then you're allowed to end the quarantine early), but testing on arrival isn't - it'll either show that you have it, or that you don't have it in sufficient quantity to give a positive test at that moment.

So playing devil’s advocate: 93% OF CORONA TESTS ARE POINTLESS, SAYS BORIS! Daily Blurb

I do completely understand your point, but where do these percentages come from? Does it mean that if you have a CV test on a plane of 100 people, and you are positive, but six are not, then you are one of the 7%, but a further 93 people might then also identify as positive later; no that’s not right surely.

Stop calling me Shirley and can anyone good with statistics help!
 

Requeststop

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In between flying to London from Port Moresby via Brisbane and Doha. At the time of writing I'm in Doha. Chatting to a fellow transfer in Brisbane I was told of the Public Heath locator form that I had to submit. I'd not been told of this form by the travel agent, the airline (Qatar Airways with whom I'm travelling. My Internet signal in Port Moresby is not the very best and some days it can take time to get a email or reply especially when the time difference is 9-10 hours. Anyhow, I managed to get on line in Brisbane and was helped to find the link to fill in the form and I got an instant reply. The only saving grace is that the last line of the form states "I declare that I will arrive in the UK within the next 48 hours" That bit is most certainly true.

You can certainly trust the UK government to make a balls up od anything.
 

Bantamzen

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Can anybody make any sense of this?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54031912

Nope, no sense at all. Other countries seem to be able to implement such systems, but clearly BoJo is playing to the Brexiteer crowd here by not following the example of other European countries. Yet more proof that many, if not all the so called covid measures are nothing more than political gesturing.
 
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