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Rail Operating Centre reliabilty

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aleggatta

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There is also the issue of fires and alarms. Should a fire alarm go off then the building would be evacuated pending investigation. What happens to the trains? What if it were a real fire,how easily repairable/replaceable is a ROC?
Fire alarm systems would be zoned appropriately (a bit like hospitals) with only the area 'in alarm' needing to be evacuated, and not necessarily an evacuation outside of the building, just to a zone not in full alarm, so with appropriate fire walls the only time this would be an issue is if the alarms went off 'on the shop floor'. even then I can see there being procedures in place that they only evacuate if smoke is apparent etc. A confirmed (active) fire would be a completely different situation but would still be covered by its own procedures, and there should be enough resilience in the design of the building to allow trains to be brought to a halt in platforms and detrained should a network shutdown be forced to occur in this way.
 
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HSTEd

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There was an incident at a Swedish nuclear plant where there was an incident in the switchyard that caused the unit to trip.

Then two of the diesel generators failed to start supplying power automatically.
It later transpired frequency detectors on the turbogenerator busbars were installed with a backwards phase order, and due to peculiarities in its design registered a frequency that was wildly incorrect
 
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Bald Rick

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There is also the issue of fires and alarms. Should a fire alarm go off then the building would be evacuated pending investigation. What happens to the trains? What if it were a real fire,how easily repairable/replaceable is a ROC?

Exactly the same if there is a fire alarm in a power box or IECC - all trains stopped, building evacuated.

In a ROC, however, the chances of a fire alarm affecting thre control floor is smaller than in a powerbox or IECC.
 

Sunset route

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There is also the issue of fires and alarms. Should a fire alarm go off then the building would be evacuated pending investigation. What happens to the trains? What if it were a real fire,how easily repairable/replaceable is a ROC?

There are plans in every PSB, ASC, SCC, IECC, ROC that deal with how to bring the railway to a safe stand in the event of fire alarms going off. Two stage fire alarms, zoned areas and the opps floor is the most fire protected room in the building so the signalling staff will always be the lsat to evacuate once the necessary close down procedures have taken place.
 

507 001

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When the first ROC opened the word was that ‘it’ll never happen, there’s too many failsafes’.

Always struck me as an unsinkable Titanic type of thing that one.
 

30907

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Reminds me of that time York ROC was hit by lightning whilst I was on my way to work. Cue 2 hours stuck on the train,a reverse at Tollerton and being taken back to Thirsk. It got me thinking too, would smaller overlapping ROCs be the solution with one able to cover for another? Would that work and if so how?
Answers in post #13
 

seagull

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It got me thinking too, would smaller overlapping ROCs be the solution with one able to cover for another? Would that work and if so how?

You could take it further, and have much smaller signalling centres, let's call them "boxes", each of which has responsibility for a relatively small geographic area, and, to be independent of the need for mains power supplies, could have a revolutionary type of signal which has a moving arm, let's call them "semaphores", connected to each box by metal cables, with points connected by metal rods.
In addition, the block system, rather than rely on computers, could use a low voltage (and runs for ages on battery backup) sort of audible transmitter between boxes, let's call it a "block instrument".
And finally, to really be "off the grid", the signals could, at night, have some kind of burning device to provide a light, let's call it, a "paraffin lamp".

I jest, of course, but just occasionally one does wonder about whether "progress" really is that or not. Have to say though, those paraffin lamp-lit signals were pretty horrendous to see at night.
 

Bald Rick

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When the first ROC opened the word was that ‘it’ll never happen, there’s too many failsafes’.

It wasn’t. Never is a long time.

However it was “it’s unlikely to happen, and less likely than at existing signalling centres, as there are many mitigations designed in”

In the 13 years since the first new generation ROC opened (Derby), there have been very, very few incidents of this nature.
 

mikeg

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Is it not the case that bigger, more interconnected systems are less likely to fail or have any given failure, but when that failure, however unlikely happens, it's more likely to be catastrophic? Certainly the case with other systems, be they power grids or I would argue economic systems. Might be worthy of a subject of its own in General Discussion,which I will create in the spirit of if I get round to it... But does this apply to the ROC model too?
 

OliverS

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If you assume that there is a 1% chance that a given signal box will fail on a day, irrespective as to whether it is a mechanical, power or ROC then the question is surely whether you are better having say 4 boxes covering a route or 1. On a linear route like the GEML, then with a single ROC you get on average a failure every 100 days with a single ROC whereas it is higher than that whereas you get approximately 4 failures each 100 days with 4 boxes. A lot of routes descend to much reduced service with a failure at any point so the ROC may cause a larger area to stop completely but you might actually end up with less disruption. Add to that the fact that you can concentrate extra spending on one location to reduce failure rates and I wouldn't be surprised if ROCs cause fewer delays than several boxes.

It is a similar reason why aeroplanes normally have two engines these days not 4. If your flight is delayed if any engine fails, then having twice as may engines approximately doubles the chance of delay so 2 engines is better.
 

Class 170101

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I suppose the question I would ask is what plans are in place to deal with incidents immediately outside the building, my favourite, the gas cyclinder, and before anyone says there are none near a ROC I would expect there not to be one near a PSB yet it happened at Kings Cross on an adjacent building site. Would NR have any say on the safety management of an adjacent site?
 

zwk500

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I suppose the question I would ask is what plans are in place to deal with incidents immediately outside the building, my favourite, the gas cyclinder, and before anyone says there are none near a ROC I would expect there not to be one near a PSB yet it happened at Kings Cross on an adjacent building site. Would NR have any say on the safety management of an adjacent site?
ROCs have a boundary deliberately set a safe distance from the building. I don't think NR would get any automatic say over an adjacent site, but ROC staff might be expected to develop a friendly rapport with anybody working on an area that could be thought to generate a risk. If bad practice by an adjacent site was putting NR at risk, they would have recourse through local council or police, the same as anybody else.
 

Skie

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Builders cut through some Merseyrail IECC cables a number of years ago. Amazing, considering how close to the railway it actually is.
 

Sunset route

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Builders cut through some Merseyrail IECC cables a number of years ago. Amazing, considering how close to the railway it actually is.

They were railway contractors and I actually got caught in their mess being stuck at Hooton waiting for a Liverpool train. Also theywere also the same contractors working at my location and had to suspend work until they completed a more thorough site survey.
 

Bald Rick

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I suppose the question I would ask is what plans are in place to deal with incidents immediately outside the building, my favourite, the gas cyclinder, and before anyone says there are none near a ROC I would expect there not to be one near a PSB yet it happened at Kings Cross on an adjacent building site.

Let someone just say that ROCs are much better designed than their predecessors in this respect.
 

Mag_seven

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Builders cut through some Merseyrail IECC cables a number of years ago. Amazing, considering how close to the railway it actually is.

Inexcusable since you are supposed to do detailed buried services surveys and scans prior to digging.
 

Tio Terry

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Does anybody know what the actual problem at Romford was? I know "Power Failure" but what in detail does that mean, from memory there are dual Grid supplies from separate sources and a Traction derived back up. Did they all fail or was it an issue of switching between supplies?
 

mpb56125

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I suppose the question I would ask is what plans are in place to deal with incidents immediately outside the building, my favourite, the gas cyclinder, and before anyone says there are none near a ROC I would expect there not to be one near a PSB yet it happened at Kings Cross on an adjacent building site. Would NR have any say on the safety management of an adjacent site?
Manchester ROC is built near to scrap yard. with only 1 access road alongside it.

Mark
 

Snow1964

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A considerably bigger problem was caused about 2 years ago at East Croydon when the power tripped for Windmill Bridge Junction. It was, to put it mildly, an almighty task to even get a basic service moving again. But move it did, that night, and once it begun running the TRC & Signalling staff were able to devise and implement a recovery plan that allowed an almost full AM peak the following morning.

I’ve experienced one at Waterloo about 8 years ago when lightning took out a signal gantry at Earlsfield start of evening peak. Eventually got a train routed via East Putney spur (the only time in about 20 years got routed that way in peak hour)
 
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